In Between Churches

[Ouroboros]

 

See some people would get confused by this kind of pejorative description. We do not drink blood! We drink wine - or grape juice. We munch on communion wafers - made of wheat flour.

That wasn't real blood I was drinking for 35 years????

I guess his interpretation of the "Holy Scriptures" is that there's no meaning to the symbols, and there's no power to faith, believe, or the blood.

 

He's obviously a false Christian. A heretic who's trying to convert us to his own private cult of the "True Christians™ JayL Style".

[JayL]

JayL, please answer the following questions for me:

 

Where was God when my mom died of cancer when I was 19 months old?

Where was God while I was being emotionally abused by my step mom, unbeknownst to my dad?

Where was God when my grandpa who I adored, blew his brains out?

Where was God when my dad who I adored, committed suicide by running his car in the enclosed garage with the car windows open?

Where was God when my husband and I cried out to conceive a child, and he did not answer my prayer?

Where was God when my husband's very godly dad (father of 5) suffered fatal traumatic brain injuries in a job-related accident when my husband was six.

Where was God when my husband's elderly very godly mom fell and hit her head on the tub, and also died of traumatic brain injuries?

Where was God when a 5-year-old little guy in our church suffered from leukemia for 2 years and finally died, even though his godly parents, grandparents, and hundreds of christians fasted and prayed for his healing?

Where was God (the one who promises to protect his own) when a godly friend of mine perished in a fire while saving his family?

 

How could a God of Love kill millions of unborn children, infants, toddlers, children, women, men in a worldwide flood?

How can a God of Love send millions to hell to be consciously tortured not for just a quadrillion years, but for an eternity, with no chance of repentance or even total annhilation?

How can a God of Love allow over 6,500,000 children to starve to death in the world every day?

How could a God of Love in the Bible command the slaying of thousands of people in wars, read Numbers 31.

 

I could go on and on. I accepted Christ when I was 18 (I'm 58 now). I was "baptized in the Spirit," and was very involved in the church for 40 years, especially small group ministry. I've been through Bible School, I've been an intercessor. I've experienced what I thought was the presence of God (but now I'm wondering if it was a psychological phenomenon). It's just been within the past year that I've started asking all of these questions (and more), and experiencing a crisis of faith. It seems like a veil has been lifted and all of a sudden I can see things I never saw before. My husband is very devout, and he does not know the extent of my crisis of faith. I love him so much, he is my life, and I don't want to devastate him. All of my friends and my husband's family who I'm very close to are extremely devout Christians. I'm not ready to totally turn my life upside down. I'm not sure how this will all end up.

 

 

 

Ok, I will give a stab in trying to answer these very tough questions. ( Over my lunch hour... ) First thanks for asking the question.

 

 

 

<< Where was God when my mom died of cancer when I was 19 months old?

Where was God while I was being emotionally abused by my step mom, unbeknownst to my dad?

Where was God when my grandpa who I adored, blew his brains out?

Where was God when my dad who I adored, committed suicide by running his car in the enclosed garage with the car windows open?

Where was God when my husband and I cried out to conceive a child, and he did not answer my prayer?

Where was God when my husband's very godly dad (father of 5) suffered fatal traumatic brain injuries in a job-related accident when my husband was six.

Where was God when my husband's elderly very godly mom fell and hit her head on the tub, and also died of traumatic brain injuries? >>

 

 

I think I can summarize these as ' Why did not God intervene to stop these tragic events??'

 

First of all, I am not sure you would like my answer. So I do have to warn you in advance. The Bible teaches that mankind, yes you and me' have the dominion over this earth. The book of Genesis teaches that God has delegated that power to man. And once He delegated that power of dominion over the Earth, He cannot take it back.

 

So simply put, God can NOT intervene in most of these tragic events. THAT is the norm. It would not be the norm if God does intervene. If you want God to intervene in your life, the minimum requirement is that you have to surrender your life to God and accept His dominion over your life. If a person says no to God, God will respect that decision and will never interfere with that person's life directly.

 

Furthermore most of tragic things that happen on this world, WWII, Tsunamies, earthquakes, terrorism, etc. ALL are responsibility of mankind. God has NOTHING to do with it. Nothing! Go back to Genesis. God has given the spiritual and material dominion over the Earth to Adam and his descendants. ( Incredibly enough, the Biblical truth is in reality closer to humanistic view. )

 

Does this make sense to you??

 

Let me give you another example. Wjen Cain murdered his brother Abel, this is what God said. Genesis 4:10 The LORD said, “What have you done? Listen! Your brother’s blood cries out to me from the ground. ¹¹ Now you are under a curse and driven from the ground, which opened its mouth to receive your brother’s blood from your hand. ¹² When you work the ground, it will no longer yield its crops for you. ”

 

Here we see the Earth responding to Man's sin and moral decline. It is no longer being productive because blood has been shed in murder. Amazing, isn't it??

 

In Biblical view, most of tragic natural disasters are results of man's sin - because man has that spiritual dominion over the Earth. In Biblical view, it is theologically incorrect to blame God for natural disasters.

 

Do you understand I am saying??

 

 

 

 

<< Where was God when a 5-year-old little guy in our church suffered from leukemia for 2 years and finally died, even though his godly parents, grandparents, and hundreds of christians fasted and prayed for his healing? >>

 

This is even tougher question and I am not sure I have the full answer - or whether you would even tolerate attempt to answer. To me it is clear that sickness and disease are from Satan. And not from God. God is the Giver of Life, not death and sickness! So why did God not answer urgent and heartfelt prayers? I can only give my guesses. This one is really above my pay grade...

 

 

 

<< Where was God (the one who promises to protect his own) when a godly friend of mine perished in a fire while saving his family? >>

 

Same as above. But for God, this brave friend is still living. I believe he is still living.

 

 

<< How could a God of Love kill millions of unborn children, infants, toddlers, children, women, men in a worldwide flood? >>

 

This one is easy. God did NOT kill !!! Please do not insult God like this. You say this kind of outrageous blasphemy because you are simply ignorant of what the Bible teaches about God - and man.

 

 

 

<< How can a God of Love send millions to hell to be consciously tortured not for just a quadrillion years, but for an eternity, with no chance of repentance or even total annhilation? >>

 

When those millions say NO to God, there is NOTHING GOD CAN DO. God respects their intention and their decision. This is what the Bible teaches.

 

 

 

<< How can a God of Love allow over 6,500,000 children to starve to death in the world every day? >>

 

It is man who has the dominion over the earth. Either we do something about these tragedies or nothing will happen. Do you understand my point? Please read it again and ponder for awhile. God is not on the earth - except as the Holy Spirit dwelling inside believers.

 

 

 

<< How could a God of Love in the Bible command the slaying of thousands of people in wars, read Numbers 31. >>

 

God used the Israelites to destroy sinful nations. To me, this is understandable. I believe God used the USA to destroy Nazi Germany.

 

 

Once again, I apologize if I offended you in any way with these answers. i can only be brutally honest and do my best to point towards Biblical truths about God and Man.

 

 

 

 

<< How could a God of Love kill millions of unborn children, infants, toddlers, children, women, men in a worldwide flood? >>

 

My mistake. You must be referring to Noah's Flood! Not Tsunamis that happen naturally.

 

Noah's Flood was a judgement of God to destroy mankind. God did not show his Love in this terrible judgment. And evil people of the earth perished.

[JayL]

 

See some people would get confused by this kind of pejorative description. We do not drink blood! We drink wine - or grape juice. We munch on communion wafers - made of wheat flour.

That wasn't real blood I was drinking for 35 years????

 

 

No. It was wine.

[JayL]

Easy, Margee. A real woman like you would kill a little fuzznut like him. He's probably already flagellating himself just thinking about it.

 

 

Well I will say this about Margee. Her icon is very easy on the eye.

[florduh]

Where's Thumby and her mud arena when we need her. Now, THAT would be a pair! Picture it...

[mymistake]

Noah's Flood was a judgement of God to destroy mankind. God did not show his Love in this terrible judgment. And evil people of the earth perished.

 

As a trained physicist you know that Noah's Flood is a myth that never actually happened. It's a story from the Epic of Gilgamesh that Ezra adopted some time around 500 BCE when he created the Old Testament.

[CatholiKitty]

I remeber you, and if I recall, you said you would never come back. Don't christians not lie.

The goal justify the means. They can lie as long as they can bring people into their blood drinking and flesh eating cult.

To be fair, it's mostly just Catholics and Orthodox that drink blood and eat flesh. Very stale flesh...

[JayL]

I do wonder about the extent of the Flood. It is possible that the Flood was very large but local - just around Middle East / Near East and Southern Europe.

[CatholiKitty]

Noah's Flood was a judgement of God to destroy mankind. God did not show his Love in this terrible judgment. And evil people of the earth perished.

 

As a trained physicist you know that Noah's Flood is a myth that never actually happened. It's a story from the Epic of Gilgamesh that Ezra adopted some time around 500 BCE when he created the Old Testament.

Honest interest: Are you a career physicist?

There's a theory with decent evidence that their was a large, but local (I thought of that phrasing before JayL's post popped up) flood around the Black Sea sometime in the BC times. It would have been the type of event that got talked about and that various people would need myths to explain.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_deluge_theory

[mymistake]

I do wonder about the extent of the Flood. It is possible that the Flood was very large but local - just around Middle East / Near East and Southern Europe.

 

 

The Gilgamesh flood was most likely inspired when sea levels went from about negative 200 feet to the present day sea level at the end of the last ice age when the major glaciers melted. You know Genesis is just myth. By the way, original sin is also a myth. There was no reason for Jesus to die for everybody's sin. There may have been a real teacher who was executed by the Roman Empire but that would have been because the Romans were evil bastards. It wasn't an atonement or sacrifice.

[Deva]

So how did slavery get abolished in the western world? Because of some atheists? LOL Perhaps Charles Darwin campaigned against it?? Learn some history, dude. Your 'tolerance oriented' philosopher Voltaire was making money from slave trades!! If it weren't for Christianity, slavery would still be a universal practice.

Did I say it was abolished by atheists? You have poor reading comprehension. I am not a dude, either, I am a lady. Christian societies permitted slavery for centuries. That some group of them suddenly started opposing it doesn't mean much. It certainly does not establish the truth of Christianity.

Hey dudette, My point is that without Christianity, slavery would still be practiced. Who would oppose it when so much sacrifice is involved?? Atheists like you??? Dream on.

Your reading comprehension is lacking. Either that, or you came here to preach and not pay any attention to what anyone else says.

 

"Dudette" is not an atheist, or is "atheist" just your catch-all word for anyone who doesn't follow your particular religion?

 

BTW, you're an idiot.

 

Florduh, clearly mom and dad let this one play on the internet too much. Probably Jay is only 12.

[agnosticator]

I hate looking at stupid icons. There is this guy who has ugly monkey as his face.

 

Come on. Do I need to answer the monkey guy as well???

 

It's an albino gorilla asshole. What, are you 9 years old? Don't look at the icons if you don't like them. I don't like yours, but I'm not juvenile about it.

[agnosticator]

Ah, agnosticator... I really like you!

 

You're sweet, noob!

[JayL]

Noah's Flood was a judgement of God to destroy mankind. God did not show his Love in this terrible judgment. And evil people of the earth perished.

 

As a trained physicist you know that Noah's Flood is a myth that never actually happened. It's a story from the Epic of Gilgamesh that Ezra adopted some time around 500 BCE when he created the Old Testament.

Honest interest: Are you a career physicist?

There's a theory with decent evidence that their was a large, but local (I thought of that phrasing before JayL's post popped up) flood around the Black Sea sometime in the BC times. It would have been the type of event that got talked about and that various people would need myths to explain.

 

http://en.wikipedia....a_deluge_theory

 

 

 

No I am not a career physicist. I mostly worked in applied research and I also taught college level electrical engineering for years. I am now retired.

 

Anyhow, this 'local' Noah's Flood idea is quite attractive to me. I once read an idea that the Garden of Eden could be under the Red Sea - based on Biblical map and genesis description. But I gotta dig up sources for that. It was an interesting possibility.

[NotBlinded]

 

See some people would get confused by this kind of pejorative description. We do not drink blood! We drink wine - or grape juice. We munch on communion wafers - made of wheat flour.

That wasn't real blood I was drinking for 35 years????

I guess his interpretation of the "Holy Scriptures" is that there's no meaning to the symbols, and there's no power to faith, believe, or the blood.

 

He's obviously a false Christian. A heretic who's trying to convert us to his own private cult of the "True Christians™ JayL Style".

 

Idolatry rears its ugly head.

[NotBlinded]

JayL, do you pray? Based on your response to birdwatcher, it would seem pretty futile.

[mymistake]

Anyhow, this 'local' Noah's Flood idea is quite attractive to me. I once read an idea that the Garden of Eden could be under the Red Sea - based on Biblical map and genesis description. But I gotta dig up sources for that. It was an interesting possibility.

 

 

Sumerians Look On In Confusion As God Creates Word

http://www.theonion.com/articles/sumerians-look-on-in-confusion-as-god-creates-worl,2879/

 

The Sumerian people must have found God's making of heaven and earth in the middle of their well-established society to be more of an annoyance than anything else . . .

 

Maybe the Garden of Eden was on the Death Star - the first one of course. The one that is now a debris field orbiting around Yavin IV. The second Death Star was never finished. They got it operational but it didn't have much floor space because they hadn't built the rest of it. Of course the Garden of Eden could never have been on the incomplete Death Star. Why that would be silly.

[skepticalme]

My recommendation for skeptics and atheists is to keep searching and to keep an open mind.

 

You realize that searching with an open mind is how we became skepticst and atheist in the first place.

[skepticalme]

So how did slavery get abolished in the western world? Because of some atheists? LOL Perhaps Charles Darwin campaigned against it?? Learn some history, dude. Your 'tolerance oriented' philosopher Voltaire was making money from slave trades!! If it weren't for Christianity, slavery would still be a universal practice.

 

Did I say it was abolished by atheists? You have poor reading comprehension. I am not a dude, either, I am a lady.

 

Christian societies permitted slavery for centuries. That some group of them suddenly started opposing it doesn't mean much. It certainly does not establish the truth of Christianity.

 

 

 

Hey dudette,

 

 

My point is that without Christianity, slavery would still be practiced. Who would oppose it when so much sacrifice is involved?? Atheists like you??? Dream on.

 

Slavery was practiced IN the bible belt.

 

Who opposed slavery? People who questioned a literal interpretation of the bible.

 

This is god speaking to moses on Mt Sinai.

(Leviticus 25:44,45) ⁴⁴ And as for your male and female slaves whom you may have—from the nations that are around you, from them you may buy male and female slaves. ⁴⁵ Moreover you may buy the children of the strangers who dwell among you, and their families who are with you, which they beget in your land; and they shall become your property.

[JayL]

JayL, do you pray? Based on your response to birdwatcher, it would seem pretty futile.

 

 

Thank you for asking a very astute question. Well I do pray - a lot of times, out of habit, like thanking God before the meal or before I go to sleep. But I am also realizing that a lot of prayers by Christians reflect their very poor understanding of Biblical theology. And I surmise that could be one reason why many prayers do not get answered.

 

For example, I imagine something like this.

 

A Christian prays, "Oh God, please relieve suffering of those whose homes are destroyed by Tsunami. Lord, we pray for them!' And God will say, "It is up to you. You are the one who represent me over there. You gotta do it! " Then the Christian says. " But God, I am so powerless. I am nobody, just a worm. " At this point, God may go just silent. ( Because things are getting so stupid. ). Or He may say, " Have you ever read My Words, the Bible? What does it say?? "

 

 

I kinda see this kind of exchanges going on million times every minute!!

 

 

So, I and most other Christians have a lot to learn and a lot to correct on praying. But I AM for prayers and I am for faith.

[mymistake]

You should pray to Rubber Ducky. Rubber Ducky answers prayer exactly the way you imagine God does. Furthermore Rubber Ducky always answers prayer. Sometimes Rubber Ducky says "yes". Sometimes Rubber Ducky says "no". But often Rubber Ducky's answer is for us to wait. Rubber Ducky does this because he is testing us in order to build our faith and teach us to be better people. All has been revealed by the profit Ernie.

[Ouroboros]

A Christian prays, "Oh God, please relieve suffering of those whose homes are destroyed by Tsunami. Lord, we pray for them!' And God will say, "It is up to you. You are the one who represent me over there. You gotta do it! " Then the Christian says. " But God, I am so powerless. I am nobody, just a worm. " At this point, God may go just silent. ( Because things are getting so stupid. ). Or He may say, " Have you ever read My Words, the Bible? What does it say?? "

Oh. I see. God only answers smart people, and he's incompetent or too busy to send a real angel and let the person have a real revelation themselves. Or maybe God is just an asshole and that's why he can't prove himself?

 

I kinda see this kind of exchanges going on million times every minute!!

I kinda see Christians oversimplify life and people's behavior a trillion times every second, so I beat ya.

 

So, I and most other Christians have a lot to learn and a lot to correct on praying. But I AM for prayers and I am for faith.

How can there be a "correct" way of praying to an infinite, eternal, omnipresent, and omniscient God? You have to go to "prayer school" and get a diploma signed by Jesus before God can hear you? Hmm... Okay. That explains everything. You are special, we are not, and we never were, and that's why God listens to you but never listened to us.

[Ouroboros]

You should pray to Rubber Ducky. Rubber Ducky answers prayer exactly the way you imagine God does. Furthermore Rubber Ducky always answers prayer. Sometimes Rubber Ducky says "yes". Sometimes Rubber Ducky says "no". But often Rubber Ducky's answer is for us to wait. Rubber Ducky does this because he is testing us in order to build our faith and teach us to be better people. All has been revealed by the profit Ernie.

I pray to pixies and magical rocks. That works too.

[JayL]

You should pray to Rubber Ducky. Rubber Ducky answers prayer exactly the way you imagine God does. Furthermore Rubber Ducky always answers prayer. Sometimes Rubber Ducky says "yes". Sometimes Rubber Ducky says "no". But often Rubber Ducky's answer is for us to wait. Rubber Ducky does this because he is testing us in order to build our faith and teach us to be better people. All has been revealed by the profit Ernie.

 

 

Well, rubber duckies are cute and harmless, I will say that. Can they be used as an oracle or a Ouija board? Nah.

[mymistake]

Well, rubber duckies are cute and harmless, I will say that. Can they be used as an oracle or a Ouija board? Nah.

 

Can you demonstrate that praying to your God is more effective than praying to a plastic toy?

 

Nah!