All Gods Fail Posted November 11, 2005 Author Share Posted November 11, 2005 And speaking of Henry Ford. Did you know that the father of Mass Production was also a Anti Seminatic. He was a author of the book "The International Jew", which by no surprise was a best seller in Nazi Germany. 105183[/snapback] Not only that, but Ford handed out a lot of copies of that old forgery, 'The Protocols Of The Elders Of Zion'. He even printed it in his newspaper. In fact, if I remember correctly Ford received some Nazi medals and awards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 Just a point of correction, the Afrika Korps never made it to the Sphinx. 105147[/snapback] Thanks, you are correct! I was told that by a close friend, a Jew born in Egypt, long ago. Maybe it was a joke, and I took it seriously. Ha! Thanks for the correction! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomas Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 I'm curious to know how someone could claim to be a Christian and hate the Jews. 104519[/snapback] Hi Amanda If you look back in church history, you will actually see, that the christian church does have a tradition for percecuting Jews. Not "only" the Roman Catholics, but also Martin Luther hated the Jews. It is a quite recent thing, that protestant christians support Jews and have organizations for Jewish christian friendship and that kind of thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 It wasn't just Hitler that started the concept of persecution of the Jews. If I remember my history well, Nazi Germany took a lot of research material from the field of eugenics. Ironically Eugenics started in America. It was endorsed by a lot of celebrities of that time(eg Henry Ford and H G Wells). Sadly the concept of Eugenics was actually derived from Evolution. 105183[/snapback] eugenics: a science that deals with the improvement (as by control of human mating) of hereditary qualities of a race or breed Pritish, history is one of my worst subjects. Can I ask you, do you think that because of the anti-semitic attitudes of the time, the OT saying that Jews should not marry outside their own race, and the fact the Jews contributed greatly to Jesus' death, was thought as to why they were not to be allowed to interbreed with society.... therefore annihilated? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 If you look back in church history, you will actually see, that the christian church does have a tradition for percecuting Jews. Not "only" the Roman Catholics, but also Martin Luther hated the Jews. 105319[/snapback] Hi Thomas.. I guess that says a lot about the ability to brainwash people! Imagine, actually convincing people to hate the race/people of the very same people who wrote the Bible and the Jesus you worship! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Checkmate Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 ..........If you look back in church history, you will actually see, that the christian church does have a tradition for percecuting Jews. Not "only" the Roman Catholics, but also Martin Luther hated the Jews. .......... 105319[/snapback] Is there ANYONE that Martin Luther DIDN'T hate? The man's name is synonymous with hate. He hated Jews, the Pope/Catholics, women, Anabaptists, and an entire assortment of people who opposed his theology. I always cringe when I hear Christians praise Luther and his "courage" to post his 95 thesis on the Wittenburg Church door. Yeah, he had brass balls to take on the Catholic church, but he was still the "mad monk". Luther was a hate-filled, nutbar. I'm sure he and Hitler would have gotten along famously had they lived at the same time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomas Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 Is there ANYONE that Martin Luther DIDN'T hate? 105328[/snapback] You certainly got a point there. It is amazing that this man has become a hero within certain segments of Christianity. If he were living today, he would probably not even qualify for a church board, because of his uncontrolled temper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomas Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 Hi Thomas.. I guess that says a lot about the ability to brainwash people! Imagine, actually convincing people to hate the race/people of the very same people who wrote the Bible and the Jesus you worship! 105324[/snapback] Amanda I do not know if it is brainwashing or whatever it is. But it is certainly amazing, that christianity at one hand claims to be the fulfilment of the Jewish expectations for a Mesiah, and at the other hand (nearly) always has been in conflict with the Jews. Another point is, that Christianity does not have a tradition for reading OT in Jewish context. OT is simply misused by Christians to support their teachings. And this goes right back to the beginning of Christianity. Just have a look at the Goepels, and see how the Gospel writers quote OT - totally out of context. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomas Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 But it is certainly amazing, that christianity at one hand claims to be the fulfilment of the Jewish expectations for a Mesiah, and at the other hand (nearly) always has been in conflict with the Jews. 105367[/snapback] Now that I think about it. I believe, that the traditional Christian explanation for this has been, that the Jews have lost their position as the elected people, and have been replaced by the Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All Gods Fail Posted November 11, 2005 Author Share Posted November 11, 2005 Pritish, history is one of my worst subjects. Can I ask you, do you think that because of the anti-semitic attitudes of the time, the OT saying that Jews should not marry outside their own race, and the fact the Jews contributed greatly to Jesus' death, was thought as to why they were not to be allowed to interbreed with society.... therefore annihilated? 105321[/snapback] Amanda - the anti-semitic attitudes are a direct result of the new testament. The Jews did not contribute to the death of Jesus, because the bible is a book of fiction written by people who were being harassed by the Jews because of their heresy. So when it came time to write the bible, they had a major axe to grind. There would be little European anti-semitism if it weren't for the bible, which paints a picture of the Jews as a race of arrogant, vicious bastards who killed the very god they worshiped. The gentiles took it from there and ran with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 There would be little European anti-semitism if it weren't for the bible, which paints a picture of the Jews as a race of arrogant, vicious bastards who killed the very god they worshiped. The gentiles took it from there and ran with it. 105370[/snapback] Hi All Gods Fail! It doesn't seem to me that the Bible is anti-Jewish. The people who wrote the Bible and Jesus himself were Jews! How could they endorse a movement to hate them selves, their heredity, their family, and friends? Not likely! I think it was just the Pharisee's condemning, elitist 'mentality' that had evolved... which was the focus of nonacceptance in the Bible, not the Jews in general. One particular point in the Bible, Peter even thought you might have to be a Jew before being a Christian! Now I will agree that perhaps some 'trolls' have hijacked the real message, and seem to have manipulated it to serve their own causes. Maybe we can both agree on that, at least? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 I'm curious to know how someone could claim to be a Christian and hate the Jews. 104519[/snapback] Hi Amanda If you look back in church history, you will actually see, that the christian church does have a tradition for percecuting Jews. Not "only" the Roman Catholics, but also Martin Luther hated the Jews. It is a quite recent thing, that protestant christians support Jews and have organizations for Jewish christian friendship and that kind of thing. 105319[/snapback] And also the whole gospel story about Jesus was twisted to paint the Jewish people in a bad manner. How the priests took Jesus, and falsely accused him, and the words Jesus said about them etc. The antisemitic angle in the NT was very likely a move to separate the newly established Christian cult from the initial Jewish cult. And give all the excuses the newly Christians not to obey the Jerusalem congregation anymore, and also to make it fit better into the Roman society. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 And also the whole gospel story about Jesus was twisted to paint the Jewish people in a bad manner. 105382[/snapback] Hi HanSolo! I have to differ with you here. These gospels were written by Jews about a Jew. It clearly seems to be attacking the mentality, specifically the nature of condemnation and lack of compassion, which was closely associated with the religous right, IMHO, FWIW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 And also the whole gospel story about Jesus was twisted to paint the Jewish people in a bad manner. 105382[/snapback] Hi HanSolo! I have to differ with you here. These gospels were written by Jews about a Jew. It clearly seems to be attacking the mentality, specifically the nature of condemnation and lack of compassion, which was closely associated with the religous right, IMHO, FWIW. 105387[/snapback] That's okay. In my opinion the story how the sanhedrin got Jesus killed was put in there just to make the Jews look bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All Gods Fail Posted November 12, 2005 Author Share Posted November 12, 2005 Hi All Gods Fail! It doesn't seem to me that the Bible is anti-Jewish. The people who wrote the Bible and Jesus himself were Jews! How could they endorse a movement to hate them selves, their heredity, their family, and friends? Not likely! I think it was just the Pharisee's condemning, elitist 'mentality' that had evolved... which was the focus of nonacceptance in the Bible, not the Jews in general. One particular point in the Bible, Peter even thought you might have to be a Jew before being a Christian! Now I will agree that perhaps some 'trolls' have hijacked the real message, and seem to have manipulated it to serve their own causes. Maybe we can both agree on that, at least? 105376[/snapback] Hi Amanda- Actually, not all the writers (and later revisionists) were definitely Jewish, and the ones who were Jewish had basically renounced their religion to follow the Jesus movement (of course, I'm speaking of the NT - obviously the OT was all written by Jews). Also, I know you probably won't agree with me, but I don't believe the story of the gospels. I don't think there was a guy named Jesus who preached love, performed miracles, and was condemned by the Pharisees. I think there were people who were persecuted by the Pharisees for preaching their heretical (to the Jews, at least) christian message. When they eventually started writing the gospels, they were resentful and angry at how they were treated by the Jewish community and deliberately wrote them as the villains of the tale. 'If there really was a christ, here's what those lousy Pharisees would probably do to him.' That's a simplified version of what I think was in the minds of the writers of the gospels. I just find it horribly ironic that their scribbled fictions ended up inspiring the anti-semitism that resulted in the Holocaust. Anti-semitism has a rich and well-defined relationship with the Western church, as well as both Catholic and Protestant traditions. That anti-semitism, IMO, wouldn't have existed if it weren't for the NT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Posted November 12, 2005 Share Posted November 12, 2005 105599[/snapback] Hey All Gods Fail.... I watched a program tonight on the historical birth of Jesus, and one side had a similar theory as you suggest! Of course, there was the assertion that Jesus was a real person, and then there was one theory saying the story of Jesus was meant to retaliate mostly against the horrific Ceasar Agustus and brutal Herod. They had a very convincing theory, with lots of analogies having intentions that seemed to jeer at Ceasar, to undermine his own divine position. According to the show, Ceasar also claimed to be the son of god, Apollo! The show said this info was going to be on their website, DatelineMSNBC.com. Yet alas... I still remain in the real historical Jesus camp, and that side's presentation of its validity seemed more convincing to me. Of course, we all see through the lenses of our biases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurisaz Posted November 12, 2005 Share Posted November 12, 2005 It doesn't seem to me that the Bible is anti-Jewish. The people who wrote the Bible and Jesus himself were Jews! How could they endorse a movement to hate them selves, their heredity, their family, and friends? Not likely! When was the NT written? In a time when the early christians tried to gain a foothold in the Roman empire. It's not unreasonable to assume that the NT writers hurled shit at their own folks for strictly political reasons - to appeal to their overlords. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Posted November 12, 2005 Share Posted November 12, 2005 When was the NT written? In a time when the early christians tried to gain a foothold in the Roman empire. It's not unreasonable to assume that the NT writers hurled shit at their own folks for strictly political reasons - to appeal to their overlords. 105715[/snapback] Hi Thurisaz... I can agree that they condemned people within their same nationality. I just don't believe they condemned their own nationality itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazy-tiger Posted November 12, 2005 Share Posted November 12, 2005 Hi Thurisaz... I can agree that they condemned people within their same nationality. I just don't believe they condemned their own nationality itself. 105835[/snapback] Look at it this way... The belief in God is the world, each seperate kind of belief in the nations. When part of a nation, like a colony, wishes to break away and be a nation by itself, it no longer considers itself part of that nation. Likewise, when part of a religion breaks away and becomes a religion in it's own right, it no longer believes itself to be part of that religion. They wouldn't have considered themselves part of that nationality or religion unless they went against their beliefs... I do get the idea that I didn't get this down right... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Posted November 12, 2005 Share Posted November 12, 2005 Look at it this way... The belief in God is the world, each seperate kind of belief in the nations. When part of a nation, like a colony, wishes to break away and be a nation by itself, it no longer considers itself part of that nation. Likewise, when part of a religion breaks away and becomes a religion in it's own right, it no longer believes itself to be part of that religion. They wouldn't have considered themselves part of that nationality or religion unless they went against their beliefs... I do get the idea that I didn't get this down right... 105865[/snapback] Crazy Tiger, I think I understand. Yet, I do believe they were initially against the arrogant, self-righteous, condemning aspect of the religion; not the nationality. Again, at one point Peter said that one must become a Jew first to become a Christian! Later, over-ridden by Paul. What you are saying seems to have evolved though. It may have been that as the gospels spread to these gentiles and such, the projection of Jewish religion became thought of as exclusively isolated to the nationality that remained steadfast to its original roots, and a mental separation occurred from Christianity's original connection to Jewish foundations and authors? Thanks for your analogy, it really helped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted November 12, 2005 Share Posted November 12, 2005 Most of the NT writers were hellenized Jews in diaspora, and not the orthodox Jews from Jerusalem. They didn't write the Christian books to be against Jews as the people, but the jewish religion. In the early church, there were more converts outside the Jewish community than inside. And they were the ones that came up with the stories to justify why "God" would take the faith outside the jewish tradition, and bring it to the gentiles instead. But the only way to achieving that, they had to cut the ties to the old religion which it came from. So the stories had to portray a Jesus that wasn't very jewish, and they had to make the representatives of the old religion look corrupt and mean spirited. Another reason why Jesus was said to have been born by a virgin, was to disconnect his genetic, biological heritage to the Jews. Jesus was not a pure Jew biologically, he was only half Jewish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazy-tiger Posted November 13, 2005 Share Posted November 13, 2005 Thanks for your analogy, it really helped. 105874[/snapback] Glad to be of service. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Posted November 13, 2005 Share Posted November 13, 2005 106149[/snapback] Crazy Tiger, not to be off topic... but I really LOVE your animation at the bottom of your posts. I was in dance classes in college, and everytime I see that I get an urge to stand up and try those steps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asuryan Posted November 13, 2005 Share Posted November 13, 2005 Again, at one point Peter said that one must become a Jew first to become a Christian! Later, over-ridden by Paul. 105874[/snapback] I think that St. Augustine was one of the most influential figures for christianity. Even more so than peter, IMHO, and, could be even more than paul. However... Jews were always seen negatively here. After all, Italy took part in the nazi ideas, even with our own flavoured style (fascism). And the church wholly supported and blessed the fascist elders and politicians and ideas. Remember that reading the bible was strictly forbidden here, unless you were a high-ranking priest (low-ranking ones rarely had the capability to understand latin), the penalty for reading the bible was being burned at the stake. If no one is allowed for many centuries to read the bible, the whole culture of the nation becomes "the bible is not to be read". If no one reads the bible, no one can realize that the bible was written by jews. Here are some arguments that were used from Italians in the past, against jews. You can also hear those same arguments from the mouth of very old italian citizens, today. "Why should I read the bible? I trust what the priest says during mass, I don't doubt him." "The jews killed jesus and the bible said that his blood would be on their hands. So they deserved to be persecuted for their crime." "Jesus was a christian, not a jew." <-- this one is funny! "Jesus was born in a jewish land, the Jews saw him performing a quantity of miracles... and STILL they don't believe that he really was the messiah! They reject the christ even if they have seen him with their own eyes, they don't believe in him, they deserve to be punished for their lack of faith." <--- This one was the favourite of the spanish inquisition. All jews must convert to christianity! If they don't or convert back? Kill them. "In the middle ages, the jews lent out money to people, and had banks. The church said that it was a sin to lend out money and ask for interests. So the jews were doing something that went against the church... and against GOD because GOD is with the church and they deserved to be punished." To sum it all up... people here have been kept in ignorance for centuries and centuries. The "christian" bible is true. The jewish bible is false. This is because christ is true. And if the jews don't believe in christ, they are sinners and their religion (and thus their holy book) is false. So they deserved to be tortured and burned as heretics. This was the common christian (italian) mindset here... It stopped being the most common italian mindset only about around the 1950's. When people started discovering the truth about Lagers. Nice little fascist (racist) propaganda. This one is nazist, but I don't think that wotan is the only source that Goebbels used. Here in Italy there is chock FULL of ancient paintings, representing a pope, or the virgin mary, or jesus, or something else... *with* a winged symbol just above their heads or in the sky, representing the Holy Ghost. This one is just too similar to the paintings I've studied in my art class and that I've seen with my own eyes so many times. Hmm *scratches head* I noticed that this post is a bit confusionary, but I can't do any better, I've just come back from the hospital, so bear with me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Posted November 13, 2005 Share Posted November 13, 2005 Remember that reading the bible was strictly forbidden here, unless you were a high-ranking priest (low-ranking ones rarely had the capability to understand latin), the penalty for reading the bible was being burned at the stake. If no one is allowed for many centuries to read the bible, the whole culture of the nation becomes "the bible is not to be read". 106175[/snapback] Hi Asuryan! Thanks for ALL the great info and perspectives from Italy! I'm curious, if people there don't read the Bible and just trust their priests, then does everyone believe the same way... as in comparison to the US where we have hundreds, if not thousands or more interpretations? Hmm *scratches head* I noticed that this post is a bit confusionary, but I can't do any better, I've just come back from the hospital, so bear with me 106175[/snapback] Asuryan, I've found no confusion at all! Very informative and congruently presented! I sincerely hope you are feeling better, and all well now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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