Kepler Probe Begins To Find Exoplanets In Habitable Zone (And other cool cosmology stuff)

[Legion]

Once we resolve the technical constraints of interstellar travel... Someone's going to hand us the galactic rules and regulation handbook. ROFL

 

Oh, I think if the type 3 is already in the galaxy, then their governing power will be extremely subtle.

[REBOOT]

Once we resolve the technical constraints of interstellar travel... Someone's going to hand us the galactic rules and regulation handbook. ROFL

 

Oh, I think if the type 3 is already in the galaxy, then their governing power will be extremely subtle.

 

Provided our type 1 supervisor is in a good mood, we'll get the handbook and hopefully they'll tell us about what lies beyond their jurisdiction (competing type 1's) and tell us about their boss (type 2).

 

IMHO, a type 3 would keep type 2's in check... and would consider type 0's as less than ants.

[Legion]

Once we resolve the technical constraints of interstellar travel... Someone's going to hand us the galactic rules and regulation handbook. ROFL

 

Oh, I think if the type 3 is already in the galaxy, then their governing power will be extremely subtle.

 

Provided our type 1 supervisor is in a good mood, we'll get the handbook and hopefully they'll tell us about what lies beyond their jurisdiction (competing type 1's) and tell us about their boss (type 2).

 

IMHO, a type 3 would keep type 2's in check... and would consider type 0's as less than ants.

 

Sounds close to my line of thinking. The type 3 could literally be beyond our abilities to imagine with the proviso that it already exists.

[stryper]

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AbusingTheKardashevScaleForFunAndProfit

[REBOOT]

Sounds close to my line of thinking. The type 3 could literally be beyond our abilities to imagine with the proviso that it already exists.

 

A type 3 would be sentience at its extreme limit. Exploiting energies on a galactic scale and being sovereign at that level is way beyond stupendous.

 

Assuming the concept of universe expansion is valid and that an eventual crunch or freeze should destroy everything... I figure they are using the available time to find a solution in order to preserve themselves beyond the timeline of this universe (projected crunch or freeze 20 billion years and ticking)

[Legion]

You'd make a great pet Reboot.

[REBOOT]

You'd make a great pet Reboot.

 

Until they get tired of me barking: 'T minus 20 billion years until the big crunch' LOL

 

They'll warp me to the nearest event horizon

[bornagainathiest]

Hey you guys!

 

I like all this Type 3 talk.

 

It chimes (sort of) with some of my musings.

 

Yes, pond scum prevails across billions of planets.

That's hardly surprising, given that for 2/3 of Earth's 4.5 year billion year history, that's all there was here.

 

Yes, there are many 1,000's of advanced civilizations in the Milky Way.

Given the right conditions (whatever they are), scum seems to be able to better itself and go multicellular, eventually arriving at sentience. So, if we are typical and average (the Copernican Principle), rather than special and priveleged (the Intelligent Design argument) why shouldn't alien scum have the same potential our single-celled ancestors had? Imho, it's extremely carbon-chauvinistic, extremely anthropomorphic and extremely narcissistic of us to think of ourselves as anything other than average. Therefore, why shouldn't alien life have reached the stars centuries or millennia ahead of us? No viable reason, I'd say. Consequently, there should be 100's or 1,000's of civilizations out there.

 

Yes, we probably are being monitored in many and varied 'subtle' ways.

I remember talking about this in another forum, several years ago. NASA's New Horizons probe... http://www.nasa.gov/...main/index.html ...was launched in 2006 and won't reach the planet Pluto until 2015. For most of it's journey, it'll be coasting in 'hibernation' mode - only being 'woken' for such things as instrument health checks, course corrections and similar. It could zip right past an alien monitoring device or an entire starship and we'd never know!

Ditto for most of our robotic missions to other planets.

 

Or take this telescope array, sited in Georgia. http://www.chara.gsu.edu/CHARA/ This is a medium-scale optical interferometer that has the capacity to see details as small as a single parking lot space on the surface of the Moon. Are you seriously telling me that a highly advanced alien society wouldn't have imaging technology w-a-a-a-y in advance of this? Instruments capable of imaging Earth from light years away. Why, there could be an imager on a (possible) planet orbiting Alpha Centauri that's watching our cities right now!

 

Now, I'd like to leave you all with this intriguing thought.

 

The CHARA array has spotted something that's eclipsing the light from the star Epsilon Aurigae, which is about 2,000 light years away. Here's the paper that the science team have published about it.

http://www.chara.gsu...s/Paper32.5.pdf

Now, if you do a Google Image Search, using the words, 'Epsilon Aurigae', you'll find a number of artist's impressions of what they think this object looks like. The general consensus of astrophysical opinion is that it's a disk of dusty material closely orbiting Epsilon's companion star. As this companion moves in it's orbit, it causes the disk to block more and more light from Epsilon, slowly eclipsing it. Ok, that's the accepted, orthodox explanation. I happen to agree with it too.

 

But what about this?

 

Aren't these galaxy-spanning alien civilizations supposed to be capable of making VAST constructs like Ringworlds, Orbitals, Dyson Sphere's and Dyson Swarms? Stuff like this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyson_sphere and this... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ringworld or this... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alderson_disk ...?

.

.

.

.

.

.

 

Yep!

 

If we knew where to look, we could probably see these things, today!

 

 

BAA.

[REBOOT]

The CHARA array has spotted something that's eclipsing the light from the star Epsilon Aurigae, which is about 2,000 light years away. Here's the paper that the science team have published about it.

http://www.chara.gsu...s/Paper32.5.pdf

Now, if you do a Google Image Search, using the words, 'Epsilon Aurigae', you'll find a number of artist's impressions of what they think this object looks like. The general consensus of astrophysical opinion is that it's a disk of dusty material closely orbiting Epsilon's companion star. As this companion moves in it's orbit, it causes the disk to block more and more light from Epsilon, slowly eclipsing it. Ok, that's the accepted, orthodox explanation. I happen to agree with it too.

 

But what about this?

 

Aren't these galaxy-spanning alien civilizations supposed to be capable of making VAST constructs like Ringworlds, Orbitals, Dyson Sphere's and Dyson Swarms? Stuff like this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyson_sphere and this... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ringworld or this... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alderson_disk ...?

 

 

Stealthyness is a natural survival strategy... Ringworlds and dyson spheres would attract alot of attention you would think and giving hints to other civilizations as to what constructs are success stories might not be in the best interest of highly advanced societies.

 

http://www.moillusions.com/wp-content/uploads/photos1.blogger.com/blogger/5639/2020/400/th-invisible.cloak.105985.jpg

Where was that dyson sphere again ?

[mymistake]

When you are on a road trip you stop every once in a while to eat and pee. Traveling aliens probably wouldn't come here for us. But if they came here for some other reason they would take whatever resources they needed from this star system. And possibly flush whatever waste they didn't want anymore. So they might strip Jupiter of it's hydrogen and then dump a bunch of radioactive or toxic garbage into some random orbit. Who cares if it hits one of the planets here or not? To aliens we are just as important as weeds growing along the side of the road. They would have no need to exterminate us and no reason to study or help us. Let's hope they don't need salt water or nitrogen.

[Legion]

MM, I think there are necessary conditions for an organism to be an organism. Everybody has to eat, for instance. But there may be no sufficient conditions for life. I think here of ants and humans and of Maslow's hierarchy of needs.

 

 

How could an ant possibly even imagine having a human need for esteem and self-actualization?

 

So too, how could we humans even begin to imagine the needs of a very advanced species? Their highest motives and goals could be beyond our ability to fathom or appreciate.

 

BAA, I enjoyed your last post. Very intriguing.

[mymistake]

MM, I think there are necessary conditions for an organism to be an organism. Everybody has to eat, for instance. But there may be no sufficient conditions for life. I think here of ants and humans and of Maslow's hierarchy of needs.

 

 

How could an ant possibly even imagine having a human need for esteem and self-actualization?

 

So too, how could we humans even begin to imagine the needs of a very advanced species? Their highest motives and goals could be beyond our ability to fathom or appreciate.

 

You make a good point. We could be like ants to them. Maybe they like to study ants. Who knows?

[Legion]

You make a good point. We could be like ants to them. Maybe they like to study ants. Who knows?

 

Thanks MM. I hope if they exist then they do like to study ants and humans. I think we'd make great pets.

[bornagainathiest]

Stealthyness is a natural survival strategy... Ringworlds and dyson spheres would attract alot of attention you would think and giving hints to other civilizations as to what constructs are success stories might not be in the best interest of highly advanced societies.

 

Where was that dyson sphere again ?

 

Valid point Reboot. I accept.

 

Now, let's see if you'll accept some alternative scenarios... ok?

 

If I call your 'stealthyness' strategy, Option A, then CHARA, or anything like it won't see zip.

That's cool.

 

So what about Option B?

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5267/5649807015_accda82e30.jpg

These are some artefacts left behind by a long-dead civilization.

 

Or Option C?

http://farm1.staticflickr.com/187/364939500_6305021048_z.jpg?zz=1

This is an abandoned artefact, left to decay by a currently-existing civilization.

 

With A, there's nothing detectable.

With B or C, something might be there for us to see, providing that automated systems aren't keeping these suckers invisible too.

 

Your thoughts?

 

BAA.

 

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

To Legion:

 

Thanks!

 

C u in the Coliseum soon(ish).

 

Bye!

[REBOOT]

Stealthyness is a natural survival strategy... Ringworlds and dyson spheres would attract alot of attention you would think and giving hints to other civilizations as to what constructs are success stories might not be in the best interest of highly advanced societies.

 

Where was that dyson sphere again ?

 

Valid point Reboot. I accept.

 

Now, let's see if you'll accept some alternative scenarios... ok?

 

If I call your 'stealthyness' strategy, Option A, then CHARA, or anything like it won't see zip.

That's cool.

 

So what about Option B?

http://farm6.static...._accda82e30.jpg

These are some artefacts left behind by a long-dead civilization.

 

Or Option C?

http://farm1.staticf...1048_z.jpg?zz=1

This is an abandoned artefact, left to decay by a currently-existing civilization.

 

With A, there's nothing detectable.

With B or C, something might be there for us to see, providing that automated systems aren't keeping these suckers invisible too.

 

Your thoughts?

 

BAA.

 

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

To Legion:

 

Thanks!

 

C u in the Coliseum soon(ish).

 

Bye!

 

Good point... we may find artefacts.

 

Artefacts are remnants of past obsolete and dead systems. Exposed in space, they will last some time, get bombarded by micro-meteorites/meteorites/meteors...etc.., their orbit gets altered and they slowly get pulled in by the gravitation of nearby objects to eventually crash and burn.

 

The window of opportunity to see these will be relatively small as their orbital behavior and signature will probably emulate surrounding asteroid belts. Actually, sending a dyson sphere on a collision course towards an asteroid belt (or their star) would be a good way to trash it when its lifecycle is complete. Recycling the materials would make more sense... thus eliminating the risk of creating an artefact.

 

If constructs like dyson spheres were the expression of a civilization's best engineering and this race of beings was also aware of competing races in nearby star systems... cloaking and concealment strategies would obviously kick in. I'm extrapolationg on the dynamics of this planet and applying them to type 1 societies that operate outside their home worlds and have detected and possibly intereracted with nearby competing races.

 

Have you ever heard of area 51... it doesn't exist.

 

Scary thought here.... the fact that alien constructs may be so difficult to detect could be largely due to the scenario I'm describing. Fierce technological competition is keeping a sentient universe invisible and quiet. I'm sure you also noticed that our own military hardware is evolving and incorporating stealth features Technology is an expression of a working brain... which is a core component of our specie's defense mechanism. Without large teeth or enormous and powerful body mass.... we first learned to hide.

 

[mymistake]

Have you ever heard of area 51... it doesn't exist.

 

Scary thought here.... the fact that alien constructs may be so difficult to detect could be largely due to the scenario I'm describing. Fierce technological competition is keeping a sentient universe invisible and quiet. I'm sure you also noticed that our own military hardware is evolving and incorporating stealth features Technology is an expression of a working brain... which is a core component of our specie's defense mechanism. Without large teeth or enormous and powerful body mass.... we first learned to hide.

 

 

Is that photoshopped? What is it?

[REBOOT]

Have you ever heard of area 51... it doesn't exist.

 

Scary thought here.... the fact that alien constructs may be so difficult to detect could be largely due to the scenario I'm describing. Fierce technological competition is keeping a sentient universe invisible and quiet. I'm sure you also noticed that our own military hardware is evolving and incorporating stealth features Technology is an expression of a working brain... which is a core component of our specie's defense mechanism. Without large teeth or enormous and powerful body mass.... we first learned to hide.

 

 

Is that photoshopped? What is it?

 

Northrop Grumman B-2 spirit (Stealth bomber) ... may be a variation

http://en.wikipedia....mman_B-2_Spirit

 

Actually its the planned B-3 bomber

http://www.wired.com...s-bust-bunkers/

[Legion]

Stealth, yes. But if you're drawing power from some source, then you have to dump the waste heat.

 

If I were to look for UFO's, then I'd look in the infrared.

[REBOOT]

Stealth, yes. But if you're drawing power from some source, then you have to dump the waste heat.

 

If I were to look for UFO's, then I'd look in the infrared.

 

Well... if you're able to hide large mass, thermal signatures should be a snap

 

Stretching stealth to the extreme could drive anyone to mental issues on the scale of Dr. Strangelove lol.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dr._Strangelove

 

A silent and invisible sentient universe may be the expression of extreme technological advancement

 

Did some weird alien being just pop up besides you ?

 

 

 

LOL

[Legion]

Well... if you're able to hide large mass, thermal signatures should be a snap

 

Nah, that's what I'm saying Re. Thermodynamics, thermal engines, they have to have a heat sink in order to operate.

 

[REBOOT]

Well... if you're able to hide large mass, thermal signatures should be a snap

 

Nah, that's what I'm saying Re. Thermodynamics, thermal engines, they have to have a heat sink in order to operate.

 

 

Yikes, speculating about extreme propulsion strategies is way out of my league...

 

In the last hundred years we went from propeller, to jet, to rocket, to scramjet... We're looking at interstellar hydrogen breathing designs, electromagnetic propulsion designs.

 

The stealthiest design I can think of is electromagnetic propulsion fed off a miniaturized internal fusion reactor.

http://news.softpedia.com/news/NASA-Creates-Electromagnetic-Propulsion-System-Prototype-122124.shtml

 

The trend is miniaturization, stealthyness, energy efficiency... everything is disappearing LOLOL I don't think there would be an eventual need for dysan spheres once the human brain is able to create artificial stars.

http://www.iter.org/

[bornagainathiest]

Hey REBOOT!

 

Good point... we may find artefacts.

 

Artefacts are remnants of past obsolete and dead systems. Exposed in space, they will last some time, get bombarded by micro-meteorites/meteorites/meteors...etc.., their orbit gets altered and they slowly get pulled in by the gravitation of nearby objects to eventually crash and burn.

 

Crash and burn, huh?

Hmmmm.... see below, my thoughtful friend.

 

The window of opportunity to see these will be relatively small as their orbital behavior and signature will probably emulate surrounding asteroid belts. Actually, sending a dyson sphere on a collision course towards an asteroid belt (or their star) would be a good way to trash it when its lifecycle is complete. Recycling the materials would make more sense... thus eliminating the risk of creating an artefact.

 

So you wanna trash your obselete/unwanted Dyson Sphere/Ringworld/Incredibly huge artefact? By burning it in a star?

 

http://en.wikipedia....copy_(astronomy)

 

Sorry pal, but there's no such thing as a 100% efficient incineration. Whatever goes into the star affects the light it gives off, making itself known in the star's spectrum and being visible across 1,000's of light-years. Not a stealthy option.

Much better to employ the Santa Claus machines... http://en.wikipedia....a_Claus_machine ...you used to build the thing in the first place. Get them to undo their own work (quietly) over a long period and then scatter the trash around, making it look like a naturally- formed asteroid belt.

 

Btw, astronomers have found stars with heavier elements showing up in their spectra, materials that shouldn't be there. Of course these scientists are understandably cautious and so they tend to look for a natural explanation, not a technological one. They've posited the idea that these stars have had their spectra 'polluted' by planets that have spiralled into them on unstable orbits and then burned up.

 

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Hot_Jupiters There's plenty of evidence for giant planets that have migrated inwards, towards their host stars. Here's one that's being in the process of being vaporized right now... http://en.wikipedia....iki/HD_209458_b

 

But, if there's a natural explanation for heavy elements showing up in a star's spectrum, maybe that's a good reason to burn your artefact up there, after all?

Then it'll just look like a roasted planet. So, do you do it or not? Do you play a double-bluff or do you play safe?

 

Your call....?

 

If constructs like dyson spheres were the expression of a civilization's best engineering and this race of beings was also aware of competing races in nearby star systems... cloaking and concealment strategies would obviously kick in. I'm extrapolationg on the dynamics of this planet and applying them to type 1 societies that operate outside their home worlds and have detected and possibly intereracted with nearby competing races.

Have you ever heard of area 51... it doesn't exist.

Scary thought here.... the fact that alien constructs may be so difficult to detect could be largely due to the scenario I'm describing. Fierce technological competition is keeping a sentient universe invisible and quiet.

 

Yes, that's an entirely logical (though unprovable) conclusion.

But such a scenario works entirely against us and our continued survival.

Firstly, Earth is radio "bright" and even if we were to stop all transmissions tomorrow, the damage has already been done. Decades of tv and radio programs are radiating outwards and we can never get those suckers back.

Secondly, if the invisible and quiet galaxy does harbor competing alien races, where does that leave us?

At best, we might end up as the primitives-in-the-middle. Remember that original Star Trek episode with stone-age cultures being weaponed-up by The Federation and the Klingon Empire? At worst, there's extermination, death by collateral damage, slavery, exploitation or some thing just as bad.

 

Sorry to sound so negative, but that's my take on this.

 

I'm sure you also noticed that our own military hardware is evolving and incorporating stealth features Technology is an expression of a working brain... which is a core component of our specie's defense mechanism. Without large teeth or enormous and powerful body mass.... we first learned to hide.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

[Legion]

Here's a wild 'what if'.

 

What if these stars we're observing with heavier than expected spectra are actually normal stars surrounded by Dyson type spheres? The absorbtion of the light from the star within would be radiated out into space on the spectra of the sphere's composing materials.

 

They could be type 2 civilizations.

 

Wild speculation.

[REBOOT]

Yes, that's an entirely logical (though unprovable) conclusion.

But such a scenario works entirely against us and our continued survival.

 

The fact that we've been tolerated for the last 500,000 years could point to many things, here is a realistic view expanding on how we use lower life forms:

• We are not a threat
  
• This planet is maintained as some type of genetic material storage area (backup) or genetic experimentation platform
  
• Entertainment lol... Reality show... as in lets check out what these weirdos are up to. Channel earth or zeta reticuli today ?
  
• Biological weapon development and experimentation (lets try a new virus on these guys... hey Jeb they called it Ebola lol)
  
• All of the above or
  
• The universe is empty... (traditional christian centrist view)
  

We are ultimate lab rats.... and why not ? What rationale would stop them from using us ? They do it because they can... we do it because we can. End of story.

 

We are not a threat: we have not been a threat for the entirety of our evolution. Trinity has changed that (first nuclear test in 1945). Any civilization 67 light years away from here knows this by now, thanks to radio earth and perhaps a few scout ships

 

Firstly, Earth is radio "bright" and even if we were to stop all transmissions tomorrow, the damage has already been done. Decades of tv and radio programs are radiating outwards and we can never get those suckers back.

Secondly, if the invisible and quiet galaxy does harbor competing alien races, where does that leave us?

At best, we might end up as the primitives-in-the-middle. Remember that original Star Trek episode with stone-age cultures being weaponed-up by The Federation and the Klingon Empire? At worst, there's extermination, death by collateral damage, slavery, exploitation or some thing just as bad.

 

Sorry to sound so negative, but that's my take on this.

 

This is a hopeful view of what is going on:

 

If we had been the first instance of sentience in this universe we might be on top of the pyramid... maybe this is what the egyptians were trying to tell us. Humanity is part of a cosmic self-monitoring sentient hierarchy whose protection mechanisms emanate from the first instance trickling down to the lowest with prime directives.

 

I figure, a star faring civilization must first overcome social issues on its own planet. This can be done in a few ways, uniformization through genocide, Hitlerian regimes, religious oppression... etc. or by adopting a secular non-judgmental tone. Exporting members of a global village infected with a religion bug to other solar sytems ? First of all they refute evolution and science lol... in other words, they don't have the tools to leave their home planet (which is the center of the universe LOL).

 

However, an unchecked hitlerian regime might make it... until they met competing type 1 nearby civilizations.

 

Speculation is fun

[bornagainathiest]

Here's a wild 'what if'.

 

What if these stars we're observing with heavier than expected spectra are actually normal stars surrounded by Dyson type spheres? The absorbtion of the light from the star within would be radiated out into space on the spectra of the sphere's composing materials.

 

They could be type 2 civilizations.

 

Wild speculation.

 

Not bad, Legion!

 

Wild speculation or not, it's got me thinking.

 

I'm no expert in these things, but the little I do understand is this.

 

A star's spectrum is generated when the light energy (photons) from it's radiative zone (a region between the fusing core and the surface) interacts with the surface gases, causing them to either Absorb certain frequencies of light or to Emit new frequencies. Here's an Absorbtion spectrum. http://en.wikipedia....hofer_lines.svg

Notice how there are gaps in it? This is where certain chemical elements in the star's gaseous atmosphere have absorbed some of the light.

 

This is an Emission spectrum of the element Iron. http://en.wikipedia....spectrum-Fe.png

It's almost the opposite of the Absorption spectrum, with bright lines on a dark background, instead of dark lines on a colored one. The heat of the star's surface has caused the Iron molecules to radiate light themselves. Since each chemical element has a unique set of properties, they can only radiate away light at certain specific frequencies.

 

Scientists heat or burn chemicals in a lab and record the spectrum of light given off, comparing them to the spectra given off by stars. So, just as superheated Iron molecules on Earth give off a very precise and specific light 'signature', astronomers look for just such a signature in the starlight that their telescopes gather. Since Iron has this signature here on Earth, it ought to have the same signature anywhere else in universe.

 

Now, here's the catch - when it comes to starlight interacting with the (possible) Dyson sphere that surrounds it.

 

Starlight can pass thru gases and plasmas but it cannot pass thru solid materials unless they are like glass, certain plastics or certain crystals - that is, transparent to the passage of light. Even then, light cannot pass thru even the most transparent of materials without being changed in some way.

 

After leaving the star's radiative zone a photon of light passes thru increasingly thin layers of gas and plasma (the star's atmosphere and corona) until it reaches the vacuum of space. Then, about eight minutes later (assuming the Dyson sphere surrounds the star at an Earth-like distance) the photon reaches solid material - whatever substance the sphere is made of. Even if this stuff is more transparent than the highest quality glass, it's still a solid. Therefore, the abrupt transition from moving unimpeded thru a vacuum to moving thru a transparent solid will causes a change in the photon - a change that will be registered here on Earth. I don't know the specifics of how they do this, but I do know astronomical spectroscopy is an exquisitely accurate science and even minute changes in light can be measured to many decimal places.

 

So, imho it's unlikely that a Dyson sphere will generate an Absorption-like change in starlight. But what about a change in a star's Emission spectrum? Also unlikely, I'd say. If you remember the example of the superheated Iron - that's why. Materials have to be heated to emit electromagnetic radiation and Visible light requires a lot of heat. Think how much heat has to go into metals to make them glow red-hot! Ok, so an Emission spectrum in Visible light isn't really an option.

 

But it's a different story when it comes to Infra Red radiation and certain frequencies of Radio waves. These are emitted by much cooler materials. That's why satellites with I.R. telescopes are such a boon to astronomical science. Right now these probes are 'seeing' objects in space that are as warm as an oven or even cooler. Cooler as in no warmer than the human body.

 

These guys are doing a great job, even as we speak.

http://en.wikipedia....ace_Observatory

http://en.wikipedia....Space_Telescope

 

Have they seen anything that looks like a Dyson sphere absorbing a star's light and re-emitting the energy as low energy I.R. radiation?

 

Not to my knowledge, but who knows what surprises tomorrow will bring?

 

Anyway, thanks for setting an interesting question for me Legion.

 

BAA.