The Creation Of The Universe: The Christian Argument About God's Existance

[TheBluegrassSkeptic]

Bear with me as I try to word this in a way that could surely be twisted by some and genuinely understood (possibly answered) by others.

 

So, a little background first. I look at the debate over how a god supposedly created the Universe. My definition of god is a being/force unknown to us that INTELLIGENTLY influences/influenced our Universe. Period. Not listening to prayers. Not working miracles on a whim.

 

With that said, I don't believe such a being exists or ever has. I truly believe that our Universe is a result of an UNINTELLIGENT event. Say, spontaneous energy. YES, I am aware of Plank's law. BUT, with that said, there are a lot of unknowns in that formula. We are relying on our own definitions of "nothing" to be accurate. I keep hearing the whole "something cannot come from nothing". I think ultimately, that is the limitation of the human mind - it is programmed to think of everything having a start and end and it cannot fathom something just being - BUT - low and behold they will believe in a being (god) to have those same characteristics.....

 

If the Law of the Universe is that something cannot come from nothing, but it can only if it is borrowing that something and transforming it from what APPEARS to be nothing. I don't know if I worded that exactly right.

 

The Big Bang idea is highly plausible on many levels because there are so many unknowns out there. For all we know, there was "borrowing of something" from what APPEARS to be nothing, but could very well have been actually SOMETHING that we thought was..well, NOTHING.

 

For me, ultimately, I think the insistance of injecting the idea of God as the something in the nothing is a way to save ego. I think man has a hard time swallowing a rough pill filled with the reality that we are very much a by product that originated from an UNINTELLIGENT event/energy. It seems to be a mind blowing concept that something INTELLIGENT like ourselves could by a byproduct. Yeah, a pile of bacteria infested excrement.

 

God = Hurt Ego in science. That's my thought. I want to expand on the whole energy side of things further, but I don't have the terminology or complete concept down yet, but I do know from the various quantum physics studies I've read that our being spontaneously created is very possible (meaning our universe, and we are product of said universe).

[BrotherJosh]

As Michio Kaku said, "it all depends on how you define 'nothing'."

 

Matter, of course, has positive energy. But gravity has negative energy. (For example, you have to add energy to the earth in order to tear it away from the sun. One separated far from the solar system, the earth then has zero gravitational energy. But this means that the original solar system had negative energy.)

 

If you do the math, you find out that the sum total of matter in the universe can cancel against the sum total of negative gravitational energy, yielding a universe with zero (or close to zero) net matter/energy. So, in some sense, universes are for free. It does not take net matter and energy to create entire universes. In this way, in the bubble bath, bubbles can collide, create baby bubbles, or simple pop into existence from nothing.

 

http://bigthink.com/ideas/25144

[TheBluegrassSkeptic]

Yes, I actually can wrap my brain around that for the most part. I wouldn't look at bubbles in the bubble bath though, because I am way too literal and would think there are actual forces and more than zero energy behind those. ;oP

[mymistake]

As Michio Kaku said, "it all depends on how you define 'nothing'."

 

Matter, of course, has positive energy. But gravity has negative energy. (For example, you have to add energy to the earth in order to tear it away from the sun. One separated far from the solar system, the earth then has zero gravitational energy. But this means that the original solar system had negative energy.)

 

If you do the math, you find out that the sum total of matter in the universe can cancel against the sum total of negative gravitational energy, yielding a universe with zero (or close to zero) net matter/energy. So, in some sense, universes are for free. It does not take net matter and energy to create entire universes. In this way, in the bubble bath, bubbles can collide, create baby bubbles, or simple pop into existence from nothing.

 

http://bigthink.com/ideas/25144

 

I love that guy. He is brilliant but he makes science accessible and cool.

 

To the OP:

My pet idea is that every black hole in our universe (and there are very many) is in turn a big bang for some other universe. So our Milky Way galaxy is orbiting somebody else's big bang. Stuff falls into a black hole and it stays there for eternity from our point of view. And the laws of physics break down there. We can't really track what happens. So our space-time does not connect with their space time. What can take place over billions of years from our point of view could happen very quickly from theirs. But if you run the video backwards stuff falls out of the white hole for no apparent reason and that is what our big bang was to us.

 

I probably picked this up on one of the documentaries. Oh sure any day now we will discover something that proves this wrong but I like to play with the idea anyway. It's like designing a battleship on a napkin.

[hereticzero]

Yeah, it has to do with how you define nothingness. Something has to exist for something to happen. Because that 'thing' was microcosmic and invisible to the eye, it would appear to leap from nothingness. Our universe may have had a very rare amount of the particle that began the big bang or our universe was the result of two universes touching, which I will believe when another universe is discovered, until then I go with the big bang crowd. I believe we exist within the 'confines' of the big bang, meaning we are still in the big bang event. Our universe can be eternally lasting, from our perspective, because of its expansion. Natural laws work together because we are in the event and not on the outside looking in. Everything that happens in our universe works according to the laws that began at the time of the big bang or by evolutionary events as the result of the big bang. For instance, it was hundreds of thousands of years for enough particles to exist in order to establish light noticeable in the universe. Even the big bang did not bring about creation all at once but over a period of time. I also see the 'divinity' of the universe as the power that brought about creation in which life sprang, only because the power resulted in life. To me, that power is a divine power in itself, not a god, not coherent, not sentient, but so powerful in force so as to cause the creation of the universe. Humans do have tunnel vision when considering their own existence and often get side tracked by someone's claim of divine inspiration and everyone bows down to that imagination. I prefer to study what I don't know rather than claim any power in the universe is of a godly nature. A godly god would protect his creation rather than bring it to the point of extinction many times over the course of its history, such as the record of Earth.

[sdelsolray]

The Big Bang theory does not contend that something came from nothing. A singularity is a "something".

[Sexton Blake]

zomberina. If a god exists in line with the holy books, he would have made Earth, Sun and Moon and nothing more. A god who has made trillion of trillions of stars and maybe 10-20 time that number of planets would have no interest in any of the trillions of probable races in his universe since he could easy make endless more so why should they be anything special to him?

 

We can get something from nothing in a lab with virtual particles, virtual photons real particles, etc.

 

The big bang is wrong in so many ways I don't know how any thinking person can accept it. It is composed of ideas and impossibilities and uses a few possibilities to claim it is infallibly true.

 

God comes from people living thousands of years ago with no knowledge of science trying to understand how everything happened and how it works. There is no excuse for believing in god in 2011 other than ignorance.

[Legion]

Some people believe that if they can understand big things they themselves will be big. I have looked at the small and mundane things. I have looked at the living. And I have seen paradox. When I understand the paradox, I will be big.

[Sexton Blake]

The Big Bang theory does not contend that something came from nothing. A singularity is a "something".

 

A singularity is nothing more than an impossible idea. It has no remotely credible origin, no real possible existence and it should be ultimately inert.

[CatholiKitty]

With that said, I don't believe such a being exists or ever has. I truly believe that our Universe is a result of an UNINTELLIGENT event. Say, spontaneous energy. YES, I am aware of Plank's law. BUT, with that said, there are a lot of unknowns in that formula.

 

You aren't talking about blackbody radiation, are you? I can't really see how it would apply here.

 

As for the origins of the universe, there are a few theories about how the Big Bang could have happened. I remember one where this universe is inside a higher-dimensional space that contains other universes. When two universes collide it creates energy in both of them, and having energy makes them push away from each other. It's all math and speculation, of course, but there are possibilities. The laws of thermodynamics only apply to our "universe".

[andyjj]

It's really quite simple. 'Nothing' (by definition) can't exist.

Therefore 'Something' has to.

[Guest wester]

Don't get stuck in classical physics and rigid dualistic concepts like something/nothing. This kind of thinking led me to bouts of confusion and depression when things were seriously not adding up or making sense.

 

I recommend further study in the current developments of Quantum Physics, Dark Energy and Cosmology, as they are tending to sound more and more like a Jerry Garcia solo at a Grateful Dead concert these days.

 

Highly recommend some of Brian Greene's audio books

 

http://thepiratebay....dio_Book_-_Unab

 

http://thepiratebay....High_Quality%29

 

Also, you might try more comparative religion studies so as not to stay locked into the western interpretation of what's going on.

 

KPFK also recently ran a couple of classic spots from Alan Watts about the origin of Buddhist philosophy in India. Well worth a listen:

 

"Journey from India" Part 1

http://archive.kpfk.org/parchive/mp3/kpfk_111127_080030alanwatts.MP3

"Journey from India" Part 2

http://archive.kpfk.org/parchive/mp3/kpfk_111204_080030alanwatts.MP3

[sdelsolray]

The Big Bang theory does not contend that something came from nothing. A singularity is a "something".

 

A singularity is nothing more than an impossible idea. It has no remotely credible origin, no real possible existence and it should be ultimately inert.

 

Just not in any way you can demonstrate.

[Sexton Blake]

The Big Bang theory does not contend that something came from nothing. A singularity is a "something".

 

A singularity is nothing more than an impossible idea. It has no remotely credible origin, no real possible existence and it should be ultimately inert.

 

Just not in any way you can demonstrate.

 

That sounds like a christian defending a belief in God.

 

Most big-bangers will refuse to discuss the origin (some like Hawking deny there was a singularity) preferring to discuss what happened afterwards, like inflation which is an idea made up because observations and maths did not match BB theory.