pandora Posted November 9, 2005 Share Posted November 9, 2005 A thought came to me the other day. Mediums and super-spiritual people say that most of us have lost our connection to the spirit world because of our knowledge of science. We aren't "in tune" to the other dimemsion. What if this is true and we are deluding ourselves to think that science can explain it all? What if God really did speak to people using the natural way the brain functions? Just because something has a scientific explanation doesn't mean that the science caused the experience. Were there any "freethinkers" in the times of the ancients? Who thought that all this spirit stuff was hooey? Is science the "great delusion" the bible talks about that will lead believers away from the faith? This is troubling me greatly because I can find nothing that really disproves this kind of theory. Interestingly, I haven't heard Christians use this argument (though it seems they could). I kinda sorta want to believe in the supernatural, but my analytical mind prevents me from doing so. What are your thoughts on this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spamandham Posted November 9, 2005 Share Posted November 9, 2005 Were there any "freethinkers" in the times of the ancients? Who thought that all this spirit stuff was hooey? "Eat and drink, for tomorrow we die." History of freethought (positiveatheism) Is science the "great delusion" the bible talks about that will lead believers away from the faith? If you study the Ebionites and Essenes, I think the strong delusion is religious faith itself! There were competing sects each calling eachother liars in the early church. There seems to be an encoded message of astrology in the New Testament, with the strong delusion possibly referring to those who would take the stories strongly (literally) rather than allegorically. Keep in mind that Christianity burst on the scene at the dawning of the age of Pisces (the fish), and that fish stories are central to the NT. Do you really think that's just coincidence? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dianka Posted November 9, 2005 Share Posted November 9, 2005 Pandora, My decision to leave Christianity was pretty easy, but I had a hard time dealing with the emotions that I used to think were connected to spirituality. In the end, is there really a difference between spirituality and being in awe of things that are too complex for individuals to understan? Whether you believe in an aspect of life that cannot be measured is irrelevent. Look beyond that question and think about what you would do in response to your spiritual beliefs. I hope it works for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted November 9, 2005 Share Posted November 9, 2005 Were there any "freethinkers" in the times of the ancients? Who thought that all this spirit stuff was hooey? 103943[/snapback] Yes, Socrates for instance. He questioned the belief in the gods in his time, or at least he questioned the belief in what the gods wanted. He might not have been a true unbeliever, it's hard to know, but he did not approve that people "knew" what the gods wanted. (If Socrates existed... ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fweethawt Posted November 9, 2005 Share Posted November 9, 2005 Don't forget, too, that Christianity is a religious belief that has been honed over centuries. What I mean by that is, those who where aware of what it was that made people fall away from other religions, wrote safeguards into the Christian religion in order to discourage "falling away". Hell, Christianity itself reaks of this type of "tweaking" in order to still hold some sort of control over an ever-evolving populace. Take the Hell doctrine for example. It started out being nothing but a garbage pit. At some point, people actually feared going there after their death. Then they eventually grew smarter and realized how stupid those beliefs were. At that point, Hell turned into something different. Something that couldn't be proved or disproved. It "evolved" into something that could only be "proven" once you died. It is the big, "What If?". The bottom line is, Christianity survives on fear and fearful threats. People won't let it go because "What If?" it's true. Which is quite a dastardly way of doing business, wouldn't you say? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JPD Posted November 9, 2005 Share Posted November 9, 2005 Keep in mind that Christianity burst on the scene at the dawning of the age of Pisces (the fish), and that fish stories are central to the NT. Do you really think that's just coincidence? Am I understanding you correctly? Are you saying that, in the case of the NT, the larger perspective is one of astrology? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanInPA Posted November 9, 2005 Share Posted November 9, 2005 Am I understanding you correctly? Are you saying that, in the case of the NT, the larger perspective is one of astrology? Lots of info here: Solar Mythology and the Bible Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted November 9, 2005 Share Posted November 9, 2005 Keep in mind that Christianity burst on the scene at the dawning of the age of Pisces (the fish), and that fish stories are central to the NT. Do you really think that's just coincidence? Am I understanding you correctly? Are you saying that, in the case of the NT, the larger perspective is one of astrology? 104036[/snapback] Most definitely! And OT reeks of astrological references too. 12 tribes, and Judah's insignia was a lion. All the celestial sign, like sun stopped, like God's talking to us with heavenly objects. The Devil depicted as a fallen star. etc... In NT, the star led the magi to Jesus. What the heck did God need magi to confirm Jesus godhood? 12 disciples. And I bet that if we had information where the cult started, the apostles represented the 12 star constellations in the Zodiac. The era of the Pisces started around the time of Jesus birth. (IIRC) Which makes all the references to fish, fishermen etc very suspicious. Christmas, Jesus birth, at the time of the winter solstice. The birth of the new year. Eastern at the time of spring equinox. The harvest season is starting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Open_Minded Posted November 9, 2005 Share Posted November 9, 2005 Hello Pandora: A thought came to me the other day. Mediums and super-spiritual people say that most of us have lost our connection to the spirit world because of our knowledge of science. We aren't "in tune" to the other dimemsion. What if this is true and we are deluding ourselves to think that science can explain it all? ...... Science can not explain it all.... Religion can not explain it all.... IT ALL ... is infinite and beyond the finite human mind. But, As science draws closer to "it all", it draws closer to the spiritual... And as humanity delves deeper into the spiritual journey, it finds itself closer to the scientific journey. I kinda sorta want to believe in the supernatural, but my analytical mind prevents me from doing so. If spirituality is the search for ultimate TRUTH, then search for the truth, and don't worry about where it leads you ... you will find the SACRED. ULTIMATE TRUTH and the SACRED are one and the same. Should you choose to search for TRUTH through science throw your heart and soul into the search... leave yourself open to wonder and you may be surprised to find out where you land Be still: Open Minded Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanInPA Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 If spirituality is the search for ultimate TRUTH, then us Ex-C's and ex-believers of other religious myths are more spiritual (closer to that TRUTH) than the non-questioning followers of any dogma. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duderonomy Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 Pandora, What are the credentials of these 'super-spiritual people and mediums', and if we've all 'lost it' concerning the big connection, then why are they right and the rest of the world all wrong? How would they know that? Are they more in tune than those of us who seek, and study, and ask questions? Says who? What 'other dimension' are these super-spiritual people talking about? Maybe the same one that the Apostle Paul wrote of, telling us to avoid oppositions of science...'falsely so called'. Hmmm... And if God talks to me through the natural way the brain functions, I'd like to take this time to remind God that I have an Rx for Zoloft, and while it helps me a lot, it does (thank God) keep my mind from working in it's natural way There may well be a place/dimension/spirit/alien/diety/etc. beyond what science can explain, but if there is, I'll believe mediums as quickly as I'll believe John Hagee to tell me about it. Just my 2 pennies worth... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MQTA Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 If spirituality is the search for ultimate TRUTH, then us Ex-C's and ex-believers of other religious myths are more spiritual (closer to that TRUTH) than the non-questioning followers of any dogma. 104403[/snapback] Who said that Religion takes you away from a direct experience of God? Jung? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asimov Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 What are your thoughts on this? 103943[/snapback] Dude...mediums and supernatural-people are generally trying to make you look inward so they can take your money. Why would you accept or even ponder the statements of someone who just makes up a bunch of shit or uses what he/she heard form some other person who made up a bunch of shit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Open_Minded Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 If spirituality is the search for ultimate TRUTH, then us Ex-C's and ex-believers of other religious myths are more spiritual (closer to that TRUTH) than the non-questioning followers of any dogma. Dogma is an interesting concept. It can be applied equally to many dimensions of the human experience. There can be political dogma... There can be religioius dogma... There can be scientific dogma.. There are innumerable dogma within the human experience. And, there is danger of becoming an non-questioning follower of any of the above dogma. Also, determining which path is closer to the TRUTH is like determining which point on the circumference is closer to the center... On a personal note, among the 5 most influencial books of my own spiritual journey are; A Brief History of Time as well as the writings of John of the Cross, and Thomas Keating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megistias Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 A thought came to me the other day. Mediums and super-spiritual people say that most of us have lost our connection to the spirit world because of our knowledge of science. We aren't "in tune" to the other dimemsion. 103943[/snapback] And how exactly would they know - unless you assume that they can do the things they claim ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euphgeek Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 If spirituality is the search for ultimate TRUTH, then us Ex-C's and ex-believers of other religious myths are more spiritual (closer to that TRUTH) than the non-questioning followers of any dogma. 104403[/snapback] I definitely agree with that. Dude...mediums and supernatural-people are generally trying to make you look inward so they can take your money. That's like saying doctors make you think you're sick so they can take your money, in my opinion. Sure, some doctors do that, but the majority want to help people get better. Why would you accept or even ponder the statements of someone who just makes up a bunch of shit or uses what he/she heard form some other person who made up a bunch of shit? 104635[/snapback] How do you know it's all made up? Many scientists theorize that the universe is made up of many more dimensions than the three or four we are able to observe. Isn't there a chance that some people are in tune with their abilities to communicate with or observe these other dimensions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asimov Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 How do you know it's all made up? Many scientists theorize that the universe is made up of many more dimensions than the three or four we are able to observe. Isn't there a chance that some people are in tune with their abilities to communicate with or observe these other dimensions? 105197[/snapback] Yea, and until those other dimensions are verified and until these peoples "abilities" are verified then it's all bullshit. Guilty until proven innocent, so to speak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euphgeek Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 How do you know it's all made up? Many scientists theorize that the universe is made up of many more dimensions than the three or four we are able to observe. Isn't there a chance that some people are in tune with their abilities to communicate with or observe these other dimensions? 105197[/snapback] Yea, and until those other dimensions are verified and until these peoples "abilities" are verified then it's all bullshit. Guilty until proven innocent, so to speak. 105202[/snapback] Um, it's your business what you want to believe, but saying something is bullshit until it's verified is a particularly unscientific way of looking at things. It's like saying that atoms or gravity didn't exist until they were discovered. I prefer to remain skeptical (doubting but open to the possibility that I could be wrong) until something is proved beyond a reasonable doubt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All Gods Fail Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 Is science the "great delusion" the bible talks about that will lead believers away from the faith?103943[/snapback] Pandaora, I know just what you're talking about and how you feel. For real - I went through the same thing myself for awhile, back when I first deconverted. It was disturbing to me to think that maybe this was a 'prophecy' of the bible that was actually coming true. It bothered me for years. But eventually I started reading up on science, evolution, etc. and I realized something. The Old Testament is complete and utter bullshit. It does not stand as anything but a book of wish-fullfillment for ancient, ignorant people who didn't understand anything. I mean, they thought meteorites were stars! They thought the sky was a canopy with floodgates for rain! They thought the earth was supported by pillars! And they sure as hell never imagined a world much bigger than the Mediterranean sea, let alone a solar system or galaxy or universe. They believed in magic, and fairy tales. The great flood, making people out of mud, women turning to pillars of salt, talking bushes, men killing entire armies with a bone, the sun standing still, seas parting on command - it's ridiculous! It never happened, never never never! And once the foundation of the OT crumbles, the New Testament just doesn't have any legs to stand on. Paul becomes like Wile E. Coyote walking off a cliff - he puts his hand down to check the ground, then holds up a little 'Yipes!' sign just before he falls. From that point on, it's hard to take seriously. And when you factor in what we know about how the NT was created, with all the revisions, omissions, editing and such, and how no one from the time of christ ever noticed him, including the Jews and the Romans (!) For over 2 thousand years, people have been fine-tuning and evolving the gospels to achieve maximum effectiveness, and it shows. The fear, the doubt, the ignorance are still just as strong in this poisonous belief system as when it first got put together - hell, it's even stronger, having been refined and edited for so long. Pandora, realize we've all been poisoned by this nonsense. It's altered our perception of reality and screwed up our thinking. So what if the bible says there will be an apostasy - did you ever think maybe that was just a failsafe to keep people from unbelief? It was anticipating a possible future of massive disbelief and tried to nip it in the bud. It wasn't divine prophecy, just an effective tool to keep believers in the fold. And it works! How many xtians have looked at science over the last few centuries and said just the same thing that's worrying you? It's all bullshit. Keep educating yourself - it's the only known cure for the damage caused by religious thinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asimov Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 How do you know it's all made up? Many scientists theorize that the universe is made up of many more dimensions than the three or four we are able to observe. Isn't there a chance that some people are in tune with their abilities to communicate with or observe these other dimensions? 105197[/snapback] Yea, and until those other dimensions are verified and until these peoples "abilities" are verified then it's all bullshit. Guilty until proven innocent, so to speak. 105202[/snapback] Um, it's your business what you want to believe, but saying something is bullshit until it's verified is a particularly unscientific way of looking at things. It's like saying that atoms or gravity didn't exist until they were discovered. I prefer to remain skeptical (doubting but open to the possibility that I could be wrong) until something is proved beyond a reasonable doubt. 105238[/snapback] Subjectively they didn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MQTA Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 If spirituality is the search for ultimate TRUTH, then us Ex-C's and ex-believers of other religious myths are more spiritual (closer to that TRUTH) than the non-questioning followers of any dogma. Dogma is an interesting concept. It can be applied equally to many dimensions of the human experience. There can be political dogma... There can be religioius dogma... There can be scientific dogma.. There are innumerable dogma within the human experience. And, there is danger of becoming an non-questioning follower of any of the above dogma. Also, determining which path is closer to the TRUTH is like determining which point on the circumference is closer to the center... On a personal note, among the 5 most influencial books of my own spiritual journey are; A Brief History of Time as well as the writings of John of the Cross, and Thomas Keating. 104711[/snapback] and then there's the old kid's refrain: Can we get a dogma? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euphgeek Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 How do you know it's all made up? Many scientists theorize that the universe is made up of many more dimensions than the three or four we are able to observe. Isn't there a chance that some people are in tune with their abilities to communicate with or observe these other dimensions? 105197[/snapback] Yea, and until those other dimensions are verified and until these peoples "abilities" are verified then it's all bullshit. Guilty until proven innocent, so to speak. 105202[/snapback] Um, it's your business what you want to believe, but saying something is bullshit until it's verified is a particularly unscientific way of looking at things. It's like saying that atoms or gravity didn't exist until they were discovered. I prefer to remain skeptical (doubting but open to the possibility that I could be wrong) until something is proved beyond a reasonable doubt. 105238[/snapback] Subjectively they didn't. 105258[/snapback] True. Okay, I understand what you're saying now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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