Sunny49 Posted December 27, 2011 Posted December 27, 2011 I wrote down the symptom and causes of religious trauma syndrom from one video of Marlene Winell. I would like this thread to be a place for people to post questions about their problems and give answers. So, here we go: Cognitive confusion poor critical thinking abilities negative thinking about self-efficiacy and self worth black and white thinking perfectionism difficulty with decision making Emotional depression anxiety anger grief loneliness difficulty with pleasure loss of meaning Social loss of social network social awkwardness sexual difficulty Cultural unfamiliarity with the secular world fish out of water feeling difficulty belonging information gap (evolution, modern art, music) Causes authoritarianism coupled with toxic theology suppressing normal childs developement cognitive/social/emotional stages arrested damage to normal thinking and feeling abilities independent thinking condemned feeling condemned external locus of control knowledge revealed not discovered learned helplessness - depression self - not reliable and good source - hierarchy unhealthy sexual views 1
Sunny49 Posted December 27, 2011 Author Posted December 27, 2011 I'll start with the first question. How do you deprogram yourself from their brainwashing?
Guest Valk0010 Posted December 27, 2011 Posted December 27, 2011 The first question, is this is a recognized pyschatric problem or just a atheist masturbating?
Sunny49 Posted December 27, 2011 Author Posted December 27, 2011 It's still not recognized but dr. Winell is trying to make it so.
Eugene39 Posted December 27, 2011 Posted December 27, 2011 I'll start with the first question. How do you deprogram yourself from their brainwashing? Marlene Winell's book "Leaving the Fold" was very good. For me, there was a lot of reading and watching videos on you-tube. Here's one that I'm still trying to figure out what she's talking about. Psychology is the angle that has helped me considerably. Your mileage will vary. Yale University has about 20 hours of Psychology Classes (Psyc 110) which are great. It's taken years to get indoctrinated, and it will take time to get over it. There are days that I question if we ever totally get over it. At least, it gets better. 1
Guest wester Posted December 28, 2011 Posted December 28, 2011 Drapetomania was a recognized psychiatric problem for many years. Oppositional defiant disorder (ODD) is still recognized. Homosexuality was a recognized disorder. Just because it is a so-called "recognized" so-called "disorder" doesn't give it any legitimacy whatsoever, nor should it. The DSM has been revised 5 times because the first versions were cooked up by "psychologists" free-basing social norms. Acceptance by society and its institutions doesn't mean something is legitimate. Not at all. Betty Friedan identified "The problem that has no name" in her Feminine Mystique. "The problem" as such was the accepted repression of women (that so many idiots were comfortably blind to). Slavery was also once accepted. Child Labor was accepted. What is commonly accepted should always be rigorously questioned, criticized and ridiculed - and so should those who make fallacious appeals to social popularity. 2
Sunny49 Posted December 28, 2011 Author Posted December 28, 2011 Thanks guys! I love this video, I agree with everything she said, it's so true. I've seen those kind of people a lot of times and was wondering, how come they are not afraid to be vulnerable and I am? But, I think it has to do with family. If your parents yelled at you when you were vulnerable and told you to be strong, you'll be afraid to be vulnerable and to show you true self to other people, which is necesary for real connection, as she says. Wester, very well said!
Super Moderator florduh Posted December 28, 2011 Super Moderator Posted December 28, 2011 Just what we need - yet another three letter disorder. I think religious "trauma" is the result of brainwashing and/or cult immersion. These subjects, along with overcoming irrational fears (such as Hell) are already addressed by the psychological/psychiatric community. Sufferers just need to seek out the help that is already available, not come up with new names and special status for having been in a religion gone bad. 1
blackpudd1n Posted December 29, 2011 Posted December 29, 2011 Okay, I have one basic problem with Ms. Winell. She claims that "RTS" can mimic many other disorders, including bipolar disorder. This is, as far as I am concerned, a very dangerous thing to say. For starters, a qualified psychologist should at the very least be aware of the mountain of evidence, and all the studies that have been done, that say that bipolar disorder is triggered by an emotionally traumatic event. Any event. So, you have a pre-disposition to bipolar, an emotinally traumatic event occurs, and bipolar results. Stating that "RTS" mimics other disorders, and I'll keep on with the bipolar example, is potentially very dangerous, in that it could convince a person who is suffering from bipolar that they do not actually have bipolar, but "RTS" instead, and possibly lead to an outcome whereby the sufferer does not seek treatment for their actual condition, being, in this case, bipolar. The other way in which such a suggestion is dangerous, is that a person diagnosed and being treated for bipolar, may decide that, instead, they suffer from "RTS", and therefore cease treatment and the management of their condition. I have bipolar disorder. I have many mentally ill friends who would happily believe that they do not have their respective condition, that what they are suffering from is not life-long, and that they can stop taking their medication, because they do not have that particular condition. OUTRIGHT STATEMENTS ABOUT A SYNDROME THAT HAS NOT EVEN BEEN OFFICIALLY RECOGNISED MIMICING OTHER DISORDERS IS JUST PLAIN DANGEROUS AND UNETHICAL. Not only that, but as a psychologist, Ms. Winell does not have the medical ability to diagnose or prescribe medication for any disorder. From journeyfree.org: Mistaken Identity Religious Trauma Syndrome mimics the symptoms of many other disorders – post-traumatic stress disorder clinical depression anxiety disorders bipolar disorder obsessive compulsive disorder borderline personality disorder eating disorders social disorders marital and sexual dysfunctions suicide drug and alcohol abuse extreme antisocial behavior, including homicide Please, exercise caution when thinking about accessing the services of any psychologist. Ms. Winell makes her living out of telling people that they are suffering from a condition call "RTS". She also states on her website that getting help for "RTS" can be difficult, due to the lack of experienced psychologists in the field. Is that really true? Not in my experience. A good psychologist deals with a multitude of different problems every day. They are used to helping people overcome problems and personal issues that they have never encountered in their own personal lives. There really is no need to access a self-proclaimed specialist of a syndrome that they have made up themselves. Think about it.
Guest Valk0010 Posted December 29, 2011 Posted December 29, 2011 It's still not recognized but dr. Winell is trying to make it so. This might seem, a little off for me to say, but why the fuck is she opening her big mouth about something, that as of right now, is something she has just made up. 1
par4dcourse Posted December 29, 2011 Posted December 29, 2011 I got all the symptoms except the very last, so who's gonna step pay me some reparations for my pain and suffering? I'll claim to be cat'lick if I can get into the pope-al checking account. 1
stryper Posted December 29, 2011 Posted December 29, 2011 It's still not recognized but dr. Winell is trying to make it so. This might seem, a little off for me to say, but why the fuck is she opening her big mouth about something, that as of right now, is something she has just made up. At the very best she is trying to get others in her profession to admit that religion can cause trauma outside of direct abuse by religious leaders. At the very worst she is trying to set herself up as an exclusive psychological guru on something new for the money. My guess is it started best but the attention and money might be getting to her head. I am not saying religious trauma doesn't exist. I just think that known treatments for other disorders could simply be adjusted for a different cause. My guess is the cause doesn't change the treatment for the depression for example, how the person is handling it does. 2
Positivist Posted December 29, 2011 Posted December 29, 2011 I'll start with the first question. How do you deprogram yourself from their brainwashing? I've started changing who I'm hanging around with. Instead of hanging around with believers, I am hanging around with people I admire. I am learning how to de-program myself. It's still not recognized but dr. Winell is trying to make it so. I think the benefit of naming it is that it raises awareness about the issue. Do we need another DSM diagnosis? Well, not really. However, it is kind of handy for counselors and psychologists to have a ready-made way to understand their patients who have a similar set of issues. The other piece of this is the fact that if RTS ever does make it into the DSM, it won't be for another 25 years or so. Knowledge translation takes a long time and a lot can happen between now and then in this area of study. Personally, I wonder if there are books out there called something like "How to Help Religious People/Fundies with their Problems". I'm not a therapist but I wonder if things like cognitive behavioural therapy are just like water off a ducks back for fundies because they don't believe in psychology anyhow and because their help supposedly (is supposed to) comes from God. What is commonly accepted should always be rigorously questioned, criticized and ridiculed... Nicely said, Wester. Okay, I have one basic problem with Ms. Winell. She claims that "RTS" can mimic many other disorders, including bipolar disorder. This is, as far as I am concerned, a very dangerous thing to say. ...Not only that, but as a psychologist, Ms. Winell does not have the medical ability to diagnose or prescribe medication for any disorder. Thanks for a wise warning, BP. Psychologists view things from one perspective and psychiatrists from another. I personally believe in team approaches to mental health, as I think both psychologists and psychiatrists have something of value for patient care and they really should be chatting with and about patients together in developing a coherent and effective plan of care. 2
Sunny49 Posted January 4, 2012 Author Posted January 4, 2012 Okay, I have one basic problem with Ms. Winell. She claims that "RTS" can mimic many other disorders, including bipolar disorder. This is, as far as I am concerned, a very dangerous thing to say. .....A good psychologist deals with a multitude of different problems every day. They are used to helping people overcome problems and personal issues that they have never encountered in their own personal lives. There really is no need to access a self-proclaimed specialist of a syndrome that they have made up themselves. Think about it. Well, RTS definately exist because I have it and many other people have it. It is true that it mimics other mental disorders, but I think only people themselves can tell wheater they have RTS or something else. I for sure can say I have RTS because I clearly had a shock after hearing their doctrine. I was fine before that. I think it's not ok to diss on something you don't know or haven't experienced. This is the same as if I would say, bipolar disorder doesn't really exist, psychiatrist invented it to sell medications!
DesertBob Posted January 4, 2012 Posted January 4, 2012 Well, RTS definately exist because I have it and many other people have it. It is true that it mimics other mental disorders, but I think only people themselves can tell wheater they have RTS or something else. I for sure can say I have RTS because I clearly had a shock after hearing their doctrine. I was fine before that. I think it's not ok to diss on something you don't know or haven't experienced. This is the same as if I would say, bipolar disorder doesn't really exist, psychiatrist invented it to sell medications! Not really. All we're saying is that religious trauma is a cause of depression and other mental disorders, just as other forms of trauma can trigger them. But depression (to pick one disorder) is depression, whatever the cause. It's true that an understanding of how religion-driven illusions can inflict trauma can be helpful in some kinds of therapy (say, talk therapy), but fundamentally you don't treat depression any differently because it's caused by one thing vs another. My son is suffering from reactive depression at present due to the fact he lost his job compounded by the challenges of his mild Asperger's. Should he be treated for Job Loss Syndrome (JLS?) or Life Suckage Due to Asperger's Syndrome? (LSDAS) -- or just for depression? Would it be helpful to multiply syndromes or just treat the basic pathologies that come out of the multitude of causes for misery and suckage that life presents?
blackpudd1n Posted January 5, 2012 Posted January 5, 2012 Well, RTS definately exist because I have it and many other people have it. It is true that it mimics other mental disorders, but I think only people themselves can tell wheater they have RTS or something else. I for sure can say I have RTS because I clearly had a shock after hearing their doctrine. I was fine before that. I think it's not ok to diss on something you don't know or haven't experienced. This is the same as if I would say, bipolar disorder doesn't really exist, psychiatrist invented it to sell medications! Not really. All we're saying is that religious trauma is a cause of depression and other mental disorders, just as other forms of trauma can trigger them. But depression (to pick one disorder) is depression, whatever the cause. It's true that an understanding of how religion-driven illusions can inflict trauma can be helpful in some kinds of therapy (say, talk therapy), but fundamentally you don't treat depression any differently because it's caused by one thing vs another. My son is suffering from reactive depression at present due to the fact he lost his job compounded by the challenges of his mild Asperger's. Should he be treated for Job Loss Syndrome (JLS?) or Life Suckage Due to Asperger's Syndrome? (LSDAS) -- or just for depression? Would it be helpful to multiply syndromes or just treat the basic pathologies that come out of the multitude of causes for misery and suckage that life presents? Thanks, Bob, that's exactly the point I was trying to get across. And another way to think of trauma is that trauma is trauma, regardless of what caused it. When a man or woman has been sexually assaulted, do we say that they have sexual-assault trauma syndrome, or do we say that post traumatic stress disorder occurs? What about survivors of child abuse? Why don't they get their own special syndrome? Is it perhaps because Post Traumatic Stress Disorder is enough to cover all forms of trauma, and that therapists are already able to deal with those traumas under that umbrella group? Why do we need a special syndrome simply because we used to be religious? Let me raise a possible thought as to why ex-c's are into having a special syndrome: is it possibly because some of the narcisstic qualities that christianity produced within us, the old belief that we are "special" and the "it's all about me" mindset is easily taken advantage of and turns us into nice little cash cows? Allow me to mention something else here- I first discovered journeyfree.org mid-last year. At first I, too, wanted to believe that someone had all the answers for me. And the idea that I didn't have bipolar, but instead had rts was a seductive one, and therefore a very dangerous one. The last time someone managed to convince me that I had a psychological disorder and not bipolar I went off my medication. After 9 weeks, it was very clear to me that I did, in fact, have bipolar, and that I did, in fact, need medication. I thought long and hard about rts before I came to these thoughts and conclusions. I wanted to believe that it existed, but, after careful analysis and thought, I decided that I simply could not believe in it. If you have read my extimony, you will see that I suffered greatly under christianity, and was abused as a child using christianity as an excuse for it. I was a fundamentalist extremist. Not only that, but I live in Australia, and at first, I actually felt more isolated and depressed at the thought that I may have rts and not be able to get help for it. But, I have been dealing very well with the after effects of fundamentalist extremism and brainwashing through therapy with a psychologist who is not an expert in religion-induced trauma, and, in fact, have found the greatest help to be simply from participating in these forums. That's right- I am recovering just fine without reading Dr. Winell's book or participating in therapy with her organisation. Why? Because the help required is already out there, and easily accessible here. This is my journey, and I'd rather not have someone desire to convince me that I have their own special syndrome just to justify the reason that they need to keep taking my money and to keep me lock into giving them that money.
Guest Valk0010 Posted January 5, 2012 Posted January 5, 2012 Well, RTS definately exist because I have it and many other people have it. It is true that it mimics other mental disorders, Well that is a bit like, saying, I know devil exists because i scene him. Experience is weak evidence. but I think only people themselves can tell wheater they have RTS or something else. There is a reason doctor's say don't self diagnose. I for sure can say I have RTS because I clearly had a shock after hearing their doctrine. I was fine before that. I think it's not ok to diss on something you don't know or haven't experienced. This is the same as if I would say, bipolar disorder doesn't really exist, psychiatrist invented it to sell medications! I am sorry, but ptsd, which is very similar to RTS, is caused after experiencing events, as well how do you know now you don't have ptsd. There is another reason there is such a thing as having a degree in pyschology. And there is a reason I bet, that this won't appear in 2013's dsm 5. Saying that religion is a problem, instead of the brain, causes more harm then good. There is a reason medicine exists. Don't know or haven't experienced, gosh isn't that a bit like saying you can't diss god because you haven't experienced him. This is a cash cow for her, think about it, crusade's like sex, sell. As hitchens once said," a arguement that explains everything explains nothing." This has many the same qualities, which is why I don't like it. As puddin pointed out, its a great scapegoat for actual problems. This isn't to say that religious indoctrination isn't a problem, its just a different kind of problem then say depression. 1
Guest Valk0010 Posted January 5, 2012 Posted January 5, 2012 Well, RTS definately exist because I have it and many other people have it. It is true that it mimics other mental disorders, but I think only people themselves can tell wheater they have RTS or something else. I for sure can say I have RTS because I clearly had a shock after hearing their doctrine. I was fine before that. I think it's not ok to diss on something you don't know or haven't experienced. This is the same as if I would say, bipolar disorder doesn't really exist, psychiatrist invented it to sell medications! Not really. All we're saying is that religious trauma is a cause of depression and other mental disorders, just as other forms of trauma can trigger them. But depression (to pick one disorder) is depression, whatever the cause. It's true that an understanding of how religion-driven illusions can inflict trauma can be helpful in some kinds of therapy (say, talk therapy), but fundamentally you don't treat depression any differently because it's caused by one thing vs another. My son is suffering from reactive depression at present due to the fact he lost his job compounded by the challenges of his mild Asperger's. Should he be treated for Job Loss Syndrome (JLS?) or Life Suckage Due to Asperger's Syndrome? (LSDAS) -- or just for depression? Would it be helpful to multiply syndromes or just treat the basic pathologies that come out of the multitude of causes for misery and suckage that life presents? Thanks, Bob, that's exactly the point I was trying to get across. And another way to think of trauma is that trauma is trauma, regardless of what caused it. When a man or woman has been sexually assaulted, do we say that they have sexual-assault trauma syndrome, or do we say that post traumatic stress disorder occurs? What about survivors of child abuse? Why don't they get their own special syndrome? Is it perhaps because Post Traumatic Stress Disorder is enough to cover all forms of trauma, and that therapists are already able to deal with those traumas under that umbrella group? Why do we need a special syndrome simply because we used to be religious? Let me raise a possible thought as to why ex-c's are into having a special syndrome: is it possibly because some of the narcisstic qualities that christianity produced within us, the old belief that we are "special" and the "it's all about me" mindset is easily taken advantage of and turns us into nice little cash cows? Ditto
lunaticheathen Posted January 5, 2012 Posted January 5, 2012 Known cures: psilocybin mushrooms Wish I could like this post more than once. From personal experience. But, seriously, yes, fundy religion can and does hurt people, but a lot of idiotic shit people do to kids hurts people. And I seriously doubt fundy religion hurts everyone in a uniform enough way to label it a singular disorder. People are too varied.
Guest wester Posted January 5, 2012 Posted January 5, 2012 Come off it now....If a specific classification helps even one person to come to terms with their particular life horrors what the hey is the problem with that?? When doing forensic analysis should the investigator just write it all off to "a sharp object" or hit by "a car" or maybe just shot with "a gun"? Would it not be better to find the make, age and registration of the car (?), or the bore, manufacturer and store that sold the ammunition? I usually choose not to trust my sanity to broad generalizations. 1
Sunny49 Posted January 5, 2012 Author Posted January 5, 2012 The thing is, psychologist and people in general don't know that religion is harmful and can cause trauma. Most psychologist advice their clients to try religion and spirituality. They think it's good or at least benign. They advice religion to CURE depression unaware that it can actually CAUSE depression. What dr. Winnell is trying to do is raise the awarness that religion is not benign, that it can cause trauma. That's why I think the RTS label is important. The same as anorexia. You can also say it's depression and cure it as depression, now couldn't you? Don't you think your bipolar disorder has something to do with religious trauma? Psychiatrist define mental disorders in a very narow way, saying that they are caused by chemical imbalance in the brain, which is not correct. Read the book "Selling sickness: how the drug companies are turning us all into patients" by Roy Moynihan. And of course psychologist would cure in a different way someone who lost their job and someone who lost their, say, wife. It's not the same!
Sunny49 Posted January 5, 2012 Author Posted January 5, 2012 There is a reason doctor's say don't self diagnose. Wel, I'm not that stupid to let them diagnose me. How can they know my experiences? How can they know how I feel? They have no idea. They can only assume. I've heared from a bunch of people, including myself, how doctors misdiagnosed them and we trying to cure the unexisting disease (not only psychiatrists)!
blackpudd1n Posted January 5, 2012 Posted January 5, 2012 The thing is, psychologist and people in general don't know that religion is harmful and can cause trauma. Most psychologist advice their clients to try religion and spirituality. They think it's good or at least benign. They advice religion to CURE depression unaware that it can actually CAUSE depression. What dr. Winnell is trying to do is raise the awarness that religion is not benign, that it can cause trauma. That's why I think the RTS label is important. The same as anorexia. You can also say it's depression and cure it as depression, now couldn't you? Don't you think your bipolar disorder has something to do with religious trauma? Psychiatrist define mental disorders in a very narow way, saying that they are caused by chemical imbalance in the brain, which is not correct. Read the book "Selling sickness: how the drug companies are turning us all into patients" by Roy Moynihan. And of course psychologist would cure in a different way someone who lost their job and someone who lost their, say, wife. It's not the same! I know what event triggered my bipolar, and it wasn't religion. Finding my mother's boyfriend in my garage with a knife in his stomach after a suicide attempt at the age of 10 is what started me on the road to bipolar. Seeing the man I wanted to acknowledge as my father in hospital night after night with tubes coming out of him, his stomach stapled together, and being told that another mm and it would have been fatal- THAT is what caused this shit to happen to me. Having to live in that house for another two years, and watching him go through another four breakdowns, worrying every time that he was going to be successful, and not having any counselling or being able to talk about it- that's what started it. What I went through with religion pales in comparison to that.
Sunny49 Posted January 5, 2012 Author Posted January 5, 2012 I'm very sorry for your bad experience, but as you KNOW what caused your bipolar disorder it's how I KNOW what caused my problems, and it was definately religious trauma when I was 17. I also had many other problems in my life, but religious trauma was definately the biggest trauma I faced. It completely ruined me.
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