Sirelien Posted January 1, 2012 Posted January 1, 2012 Astreja, I started reading the Bible the whole way through starting from Genesis just recently. I am shocked as to how much killing and violence there is in it. I have never read the entire Bible all the way through. I asked the Holy Spirit to help me read it so that I can understand it for what it really is. Everything in the OT points to Jesus! Now isn't that strange. Most of the ex-Christians I have met have all read the Bible in great detail, yet the same tends not to be true for practicing Christians. As a general rule they've encountered all the 'nice' bits that their priests and pastors have cherrypicked for the sermon that morning, and as a result are completely aware of all the contradictory, inconsistent immoral rubbish that also features! And no, nothing in the OT points to Jesus. Let me give you a practical example. Let's look at Isaiah 7:14. I'm sure you're aware of it - we hear it every christmas, and it goes like this: 'Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son and will call him Immanuel.' Obviously referring to Jesus right? Wrong! Just read the whole passage in context (ie, all of chapter 7) and you will see that the verse cannot possibly be referring to Jesus. God is, through Isaiah, sending a message of encouragement to Ahaz, the then King of Judah, whose land is threatened with invasion from various foreign powers. God says to Ahaz that the invaders will fail as long as he stands firm in his faith, and he tells Ahaz to request a sign to prove that this message really is from him (ie God). Ahaz refuses to request a sign however, and so Isaiah loses patience and tells Isaiah (in verse 14) what the sign will be. Do you get it now? Isaiah was written in around 700 BC. If Isaiah was referring to Jesus, then Ahaz would have had to have lived another 700 years to see this sign, which is obviously absurd. No, Isaiah was obviously referring to a virgin birth that Ahaz was about to see in his own lifetime! The context makes any other interpretation ludicrous! And surprise surprise, a few verses later, in Isaiah 8:3, we have a prophetess giving birth to a son. Could this be the child to whom Isaiah was referring? Well, it would make far more sense than the idea that he is talking about Jesus! 3
Suzy Posted January 1, 2012 Posted January 1, 2012 Also Jesus was called Jesus, not Immanuel. Though Xtians give this honorary name to him in the hindsight to try to make it seem it's about him. Adjusting the Jesus myth to OT verses in the hindsight! Just like they do with many other "prophecies".
Guest wester Posted January 1, 2012 Posted January 1, 2012 Everything in the OT points to Jesus! I think the authors of the NT merely co-opted the OT and that Christianity retroactively reinterpreted the OT in an attempt to lend authority to their new belief system. Bingo - attaching the OT lent an air of antiquity and therefore legitimacy in the Jesus-saves sales job that was going on in the crucible of competing religions at that time in the mid-east. My Christian-cult mum was utterly chagrined, de-moralised and thrown into an ongoing spiritual crisis to find out that Buddhism pre-dates Christianity by 500 years. Taoism by 400 years. 1
Luv2knit Posted January 1, 2012 Posted January 1, 2012 A fascinating read is: The Bible Unearthed by Israel Finkelstein. I checked a copy out from my local library, but have decided to buy a copy for my IPad. There is just too much to digest in one sitting. I highly recommend it! There was also a show, I found it on YouTube, based on this book. Don't recall what it was called. Just do a search for Israel Finkelstein. 1
midniterider Posted January 2, 2012 Posted January 2, 2012 Another thing, I see some people here get caught up on the different denominations...and what is right and wrong. It does not matter in my opinion. It is about Jesus, not the denomination and doctrine. When I start to think about how many different Christian denominations there are, I get lost too. But when I see Jesus and His face, all things start to become more clear. It is about Jesus, not the doctrine. If we look to Him, He will give us what we need to understand those things that are so foggy. The minute I took my eyes off the Lord, I was filled with doubt and confusion. When I keep my mind on Him, everything makes sense. When my eyes were 'on the lord' I felt guilty and afraid. Though my 'eyes' never saw him, it was only my imagination that created all the baloney I was told by other Christians that made me feel guilty and afraid. Then my imagination created god to rule over me. But it didn't work out. It got irritating. So I told god my imagination that I was tired of that and would no longer be living like that. Life improved when I no longer allowed an imagined god to be in control of me. When I use my own reason, logic, and common sense, everything makes sense. 1
expat674 Posted January 3, 2012 Posted January 3, 2012 Victory2011 claims that "everything in the Old Testament points to Jesus!" So that means that all of the genocide, murder, wars, famine, incest and child sacrifice in this wretched book must be justified? 2
★ Citsonga ★ Posted January 4, 2012 Posted January 4, 2012 Astreja, I started reading the Bible the whole way through starting from Genesis just recently. I am shocked as to how much killing and violence there is in it. I have never read the entire Bible all the way through. I asked the Holy Spirit to help me read it so that I can understand it for what it really is. Everything in the OT points to Jesus! Now isn't that strange. Most of the ex-Christians I have met have all read the Bible in great detail, yet the same tends not to be true for practicing Christians. As a general rule they've encountered all the 'nice' bits that their priests and pastors have cherrypicked for the sermon that morning, and as a result are completely aware of all the contradictory, inconsistent immoral rubbish that also features! And no, nothing in the OT points to Jesus. Let me give you a practical example. Let's look at Isaiah 7:14. I'm sure you're aware of it - we hear it every christmas, and it goes like this: 'Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son and will call him Immanuel.' Obviously referring to Jesus right? Wrong! Just read the whole passage in context (ie, all of chapter 7) and you will see that the verse cannot possibly be referring to Jesus. God is, through Isaiah, sending a message of encouragement to Ahaz, the then King of Judah, whose land is threatened with invasion from various foreign powers. God says to Ahaz that the invaders will fail as long as he stands firm in his faith, and he tells Ahaz to request a sign to prove that this message really is from him (ie God). Ahaz refuses to request a sign however, and so Isaiah loses patience and tells Isaiah (in verse 14) what the sign will be. Do you get it now? Isaiah was written in around 700 BC. If Isaiah was referring to Jesus, then Ahaz would have had to have lived another 700 years to see this sign, which is obviously absurd. No, Isaiah was obviously referring to a virgin birth that Ahaz was about to see in his own lifetime! The context makes any other interpretation ludicrous! And surprise surprise, a few verses later, in Isaiah 8:3, we have a prophetess giving birth to a son. Could this be the child to whom Isaiah was referring? Well, it would make far more sense than the idea that he is talking about Jesus! Exactly! This is just one example of how the NT writers took OT verses completely out of context, fabricating prophetic fulfillments. If the NT writers really had a true story to tell, then why would they need to resort to such underhanded practices? In addition to what is listed above about the context of the Isaiah 7:14 prophecy, take note that there was a maximum time frame of 65 years specified (Isaiah 7:8), and the sign would have had to have preceded that. Also, the prophecy refers to "before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good" (Isaiah 7:16). How can this be a prophecy of a sinless Jesus if the child would have a time when he did NOT know to refuse evil and choose good? One more thing: The Hebrew term usually translated "virgin" in Isaiah 7:14 literally means "young woman." There is debate as to whether or not it carries a "virgin" connotation, but that debate is mainly based on the Christian necessity of it meaning "virgin" (since Matthew uses "virgin" when quoting it). Jewish scholars say that it does not necessitate a "virgin" connotation, but conservative Christians are too biased to consider that. Indeed, the so-called Jesus passages in the OT completely fall apart under scrutiny. Sorry, Victory2011, but you've been fed a lie, just like many of the rest of us were. 1
★ Citsonga ★ Posted January 4, 2012 Posted January 4, 2012 Victory2011 claims that "everything in the Old Testament points to Jesus!" So that means that all of the genocide, murder, wars, famine, incest and child sacrifice in this wretched book must be justified? Don't forget slavery!
Phanta Posted January 4, 2012 Posted January 4, 2012 Astreja, I started reading the Bible the whole way through starting from Genesis just recently. I am shocked as to how much killing and violence there is in it. I have never read the entire Bible all the way through. I asked the Holy Spirit to help me read it so that I can understand it for what it really is. Everything in the OT points to Jesus! Where do you see God in the Old Testament declaring that a king messiah would die, be raised from the dead in three days, and require two trips (separated by thousands of years) to accomplish what he failed to do the irst time? Well, Isaac for example. He was going to sacrifice his only son to God. That is a TYPE of Christ. Abraham had two sons. The eldest, Ishmael, and the younger, Isaac.
Phanta Posted January 4, 2012 Posted January 4, 2012 Well, Isaac for example. He was going to sacrifice his only son to God. That is a TYPE of Christ. Here is a Jewish view of the example you gave: Isaac was the subject of the tenth and most difficult test of Abraham's faith: G-d commanded Abraham to sacrifice Isaac as a burnt offering. (Gen 22). This test is known in Jewish tradition as the Akeidah (the Binding, a reference to the fact that Isaac was bound on the altar). But this test is also an extraordinary demonstration of Isaac's own faith, because according to Jewish tradition, Isaac knew that he was to be sacrificed, yet he did not resist, and was united with his father in dedication. At the last moment, G-d sent an angel to stop the sacrifice. It is interesting to note that child sacrifice was a common practice in the region at the time. Thus, to people of the time, the surprising thing about this story is not the fact that G-d asked Abraham to sacrifice his child, but that G-d stopped him! Judaism uses this story as evidence that G-d abhors human sacrifice. In fact, I have seen some sources indicating that Abraham failed this test of faith because he did not refuse to sacrifice his son! Judaism has always strongly opposed the practice of human sacrifice, commonplace in many other cultures at that time and place. http://www.jewfaq.org/origins.htm It had nothing to do with a Messiah and most certainly nothing to do with Jesus. If, as many Jews believe, the purpose of the command to Abraham to Sacrifice Isaac was a demonstration of his hatred of child sacrifice, then it makes no sense that god would intend the story to justify the sacrifice of another human named Jesus, god's own alleged son. I have seen this before, and find it to be a pretty inspiring interpretation.
★ Citsonga ★ Posted January 4, 2012 Posted January 4, 2012 3. You can find secret messages in an ingredient list for Nutella if you try hard enough or "believe" enough. That sounds like fun! Here's the Nutella ingredients list: SUGAR, PALM OIL, HAZELNUTS, COCOA, SKIM MILK, REDUCED MINERALS WHEY (MILK), LECITHIN AS EMULSIFIER (SOY), VANILLIN: AN ARTIFICIAL FLAVOR. "Sugar" is sweet, so this must be a reference to the sweetness of the gospel, and perhaps the sweetness of incense. "Palm" is undoubtedly a reference to the palm branches used in Jesus' triumphal entry. "Oil" has to be referring to the oil lamps in the parable of the ten virgins. "Hazelnuts" is probably an allusion to the garden of nuts in Song of Solomon. "Cocoa" is similar to "cuckoo," which you'd have to be to reject Jesus. "Milk" must be a reference to the land of milk and honey. "Reduced" alludes to the humility with which we need to come before God. "Minerals" refers to how the rocks are supposed to cry out. "Soy" is a reference to the beans in the bread that Ezekiel was instructed to make. "Artificial" has to be referring to the false prophets and false Christs that come to lead us astray. Yes indeed, there are spiritual messages in Nutella! Praise be to the mighty Hazelnut God! Thank you for pointing that out, Prophet Positivist! 1
Positivist Posted January 4, 2012 Posted January 4, 2012 3. You can find secret messages in an ingredient list for Nutella if you try hard enough or "believe" enough. That sounds like fun! Here's the Nutella ingredients list: SUGAR, PALM OIL, HAZELNUTS, COCOA, SKIM MILK, REDUCED MINERALS WHEY (MILK), LECITHIN AS EMULSIFIER (SOY), VANILLIN: AN ARTIFICIAL FLAVOR. "Sugar" is sweet, so this must be a reference to the sweetness of the gospel, and perhaps the sweetness of incense. "Palm" is undoubtedly a reference to the palm branches used in Jesus' triumphal entry. "Oil" has to be referring to the oil lamps in the parable of the ten virgins. "Hazelnuts" is probably an allusion to the garden of nuts in Song of Solomon. "Cocoa" is similar to "cuckoo," which you'd have to be to reject Jesus. "Milk" must be a reference to the land of milk and honey. "Reduced" alludes to the humility with which we need to come before God. "Minerals" refers to how the rocks are supposed to cry out. "Soy" is a reference to the beans in the bread that Ezekiel was instructed to make. "Artificial" has to be referring to the false prophets and false Christs that come to lead us astray. Yes indeed, there are spiritual messages in Nutella! Praise be to the mighty Hazelnut God! Thank you for pointing that out, Prophet Positivist! Nice! Shabalonutella kitaknutella shadanutella shazakanutella! (That was "eat some nutella" in tongues....wait....."eat some nutella" with your tongue....wait....that's not Old Testament....
midniterider Posted January 4, 2012 Posted January 4, 2012 Victory2011 claims that "everything in the Old Testament points to Jesus!" So that means that all of the genocide, murder, wars, famine, incest and child sacrifice in this wretched book must be justified? Don't forget slavery! Slavery, genocie, murder, wars, famine, incest, child sacrifice, drowning most everyone in the Great Flood...when you think of this stuff think of JESUS! Yaaaay!
★ Citsonga ★ Posted January 4, 2012 Posted January 4, 2012 3. You can find secret messages in an ingredient list for Nutella if you try hard enough or "believe" enough. That sounds like fun! Here's the Nutella ingredients list: SUGAR, PALM OIL, HAZELNUTS, COCOA, SKIM MILK, REDUCED MINERALS WHEY (MILK), LECITHIN AS EMULSIFIER (SOY), VANILLIN: AN ARTIFICIAL FLAVOR. "Sugar" is sweet, so this must be a reference to the sweetness of the gospel, and perhaps the sweetness of incense. "Palm" is undoubtedly a reference to the palm branches used in Jesus' triumphal entry. "Oil" has to be referring to the oil lamps in the parable of the ten virgins. "Hazelnuts" is probably an allusion to the garden of nuts in Song of Solomon. "Cocoa" is similar to "cuckoo," which you'd have to be to reject Jesus. "Milk" must be a reference to the land of milk and honey. "Reduced" alludes to the humility with which we need to come before God. "Minerals" refers to how the rocks are supposed to cry out. "Soy" is a reference to the beans in the bread that Ezekiel was instructed to make. "Artificial" has to be referring to the false prophets and false Christs that come to lead us astray. Yes indeed, there are spiritual messages in Nutella! Praise be to the mighty Hazelnut God! Thank you for pointing that out, Prophet Positivist! Nice! Shabalonutella kitaknutella shadanutella shazakanutella! (That was "eat some nutella" in tongues....wait....."eat some nutella" with your tongue....wait....that's not Old Testament.... Hold on, I'm getting another revelation! "Oil" also refers to annointing oil! How could I have missed that the first time through? Perhaps there was some hidden sin, but now I'm forgiven because I got the revelation! 1
ConureDelSol Posted January 4, 2012 Posted January 4, 2012 Astreja, I started reading the Bible the whole way through starting from Genesis just recently. I am shocked as to how much killing and violence there is in it. I have never read the entire Bible all the way through. I asked the Holy Spirit to help me read it so that I can understand it for what it really is. Everything in the OT points to Jesus! So the HS gave you the power to ignore the atrocities committed by God? Congratulations, you have just defined the HS as ignorance. 2
oddbird1963 Posted January 4, 2012 Posted January 4, 2012 3. You can find secret messages in an ingredient list for Nutella if you try hard enough or "believe" enough. That sounds like fun! Here's the Nutella ingredients list: SUGAR, PALM OIL, HAZELNUTS, COCOA, SKIM MILK, REDUCED MINERALS WHEY (MILK), LECITHIN AS EMULSIFIER (SOY), VANILLIN: AN ARTIFICIAL FLAVOR. "Sugar" is sweet, so this must be a reference to the sweetness of the gospel, and perhaps the sweetness of incense. "Palm" is undoubtedly a reference to the palm branches used in Jesus' triumphal entry. "Oil" has to be referring to the oil lamps in the parable of the ten virgins. "Hazelnuts" is probably an allusion to the garden of nuts in Song of Solomon. "Cocoa" is similar to "cuckoo," which you'd have to be to reject Jesus. "Milk" must be a reference to the land of milk and honey. "Reduced" alludes to the humility with which we need to come before God. "Minerals" refers to how the rocks are supposed to cry out. "Soy" is a reference to the beans in the bread that Ezekiel was instructed to make. "Artificial" has to be referring to the false prophets and false Christs that come to lead us astray. Yes indeed, there are spiritual messages in Nutella! Praise be to the mighty Hazelnut God! Thank you for pointing that out, Prophet Positivist! I love nutella! If a jar of nutella would appear on my desk - full of it's deliciousness yet absent it's calories, I would become a believer again.
mymistake Posted January 4, 2012 Posted January 4, 2012 I love nutella! So do I but for some reason it hates me.
oddbird1963 Posted January 4, 2012 Posted January 4, 2012 I love nutella! So do I but for some reason it hates me. It mocks me. It beckons me to partake of it despite the ruin to my healthy eating intentions it would wreak. BTW, a jar still has not appeared. I'd even take a jar full of calories. 1
Paine Posted January 4, 2012 Posted January 4, 2012 Hey....VICTORY2011...... ***chirp*chirp*****chirpitychirp***** I almost spotted my drawers up thread when someone said, that maybe 2012 will be "your year"....I sure hope it will be. And when you stare into the abyss and the abyss stares back, we will all be here to take your Xtimony and welcome you to the Un-Fold. (Ha! I just made that up!..."the Un-Fold" !!!! HA! I crack myself up......LOL) 2
Positivist Posted January 5, 2012 Posted January 5, 2012 If a jar of nutella would appear on my desk - full of it's deliciousness yet absent it's calories, I would become a believer again. Well compared to a virgin birth or talking snake, I don't think that's asking too much, is it?
sdelsolray Posted January 5, 2012 Posted January 5, 2012 Astreja, I started reading the Bible the whole way through starting from Genesis just recently. I am shocked as to how much killing and violence there is in it. I have never read the entire Bible all the way through. I asked the Holy Spirit to help me read it so that I can understand it for what it really is. Everything in the OT points to Jesus! I don't know much about a Holy Spirit, but I would suggest reading the OT simply as you are - a human being, utilizing your own experience and rational thinking as a guide. In addition, subtracting Christian Apologetics from your study of the OT can give a more honest and accurate perception of the OT. For me, the OT is not something I enjoy reading, it is laborious, contradictory and often just silly. It's mixture of (likely) actual history, fiction and fantasy is quite haphazard, which is not surprising for a compilation of many authors over a long period of time. JRR Tolkien's historical fiction (e.g., The Simarillion, The Hobbit, Lord of the Rings, etc.) is more enjoyable to read and (for me at least) is more accessible for meaning and guidance. 1
Positivist Posted January 5, 2012 Posted January 5, 2012 JRR Tolkien's historical fiction (e.g., The Simarillion, The Hobbit, Lord of the Rings, etc.) is more enjoyable to read and (for me at least) is more accessible for meaning and guidance. I'm not a huge fan of most things historical, but JRR Tolkien's historical fiction accounts are my favorite too. Middle Earth is real, yes?
Wade Posted January 5, 2012 Posted January 5, 2012 Everything in the OT points to Jesus! Then why didn't the OT ever use the name Jesus?
Eugene39 Posted January 6, 2012 Posted January 6, 2012 Everything in the OT points to Jesus! Then why didn't the OT ever use the name Jesus? "And they shall call His name Immanuel." And that's a name they never called him.
pratt Posted January 6, 2012 Posted January 6, 2012 saw immanuel many years ago,,, great soft porn movie
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