Guest ThereIsNoGod Posted January 7, 2012 Posted January 7, 2012 Interestingly, I think the major thing that really pushed me away from church after I had joined, was the feeling that, if I truely loved and believed in God, then I should be singing and listening to worship songs and prefering that sort of music to secular music. But the truth is, if I had just decided to place christian music above secular music then I would be entirely giving up my power of preference. The other thing is, I don't even necessarily blame the church for this. If you join a religion which worships a God as the creator of the universe and you believe in this God, the prevailing feeling would be that God prefers hearing songs directly about himself, the creator, rather than songs about his creations. It's an interesting thing to debate. If there is a God, does he feel equally glorified when you sing in praise of his creations, to when you praise him directly? I see most secular music as songs that worship creation. Songs about sex, drugs, love, nature....they worship something real and something that lots of people can appreciate. Songs written about "God" worship a supposed creator and governing force behind all the creation that we love....which is fine, but it's all very pretentious, supposed and presumptuous. Can "God" himself expect us to understand the creator behind creation enough to sing realistic songs of praise about him? "O he is the God that led our people out of Egypt and gave us victory at Jericho etc. etc."...people praise God for things they believe he had a hand in helping them achieve. It also occured to me that Christian worship songs are like national anthems. I think we're just sort of expected to have reverence for our national anthem and whether you actually like the song or not has little to do with it. I think that governments generally expect their citizens to be patriotic and sing patriot songs. Maybe not as forcefully as a church expects it's members to sing praise songs to it's God, but its a similar thing.
mymistake Posted January 7, 2012 Posted January 7, 2012 Interesting point. I don't get that whole "worship me" thing. What kind of a personality craves worship? I've heard Christians try to get around this by saying God doesn't need our worship but instead we need to worship. But that doesn't solve it. Why would God create us with a need to worship God? Personally I find being worshiped rather annoying. Who is this God and why does God have this personality defect?
BrotherJosh Posted January 7, 2012 Posted January 7, 2012 It's just something Christians do so they can think of themselves as moral people without actually doing anything. 2
Thought2Much Posted January 7, 2012 Posted January 7, 2012 As a christian, I always wondered how it was that God almighty, the Lord of Hosts, creator of the earth and the entire universe, could never get around to providing his people with better ideas for music. Christian music was always watered down copies of whatever was popular five to ten years before it came out. I can think of maybe two christian bands that I marginally liked, a few that I would just tolerate, and I just hated all the rest. Why do 99% of male christian singers sound like such sissies when they sing? I swear they're all trying to sound like Michael W. Smith. The pressure to listen to christian music is all part of the mindset of being a "peculiar" people, and being "in the world but not of it." It's also a way for them to brag, by proclaiming that they only listen to worship music, or, if they're seriously fundy, they listen to nothing but hymns. People that claim they never listen to the music of "the world" are always boasting about it, making themselves look more holy and separated.
lunaticheathen Posted January 7, 2012 Posted January 7, 2012 I tried to like contemporary christian music, but it's just such. utter. shit. I even walked out of a little concert the fundie school had for one of those chick christian "rockers", and I went for free - it was just such horrid music, I had to get out. The next day, we had a special assembly with the group Avalon, and they admitted they didn't write any of their own songs. I had to stop myself from cackling out loud. I also remember this was pretty much in the middle of my deconverting, so such shit excuses for "musicians" in front of me weren't stunning reasons to stay with the cult and do the "cool Jesus freak" idiocy with them. Guess I just never drank that particular flavor of kool aid. I couldn't make myself like any of it. I just appreciate real music far too much.
Chikirin Posted January 7, 2012 Posted January 7, 2012 In college, the worst was when we would go on retreats out in the country, and I'd be stuck in someone's backseat listening to Christian music nonstop all the way there.
London Posted January 7, 2012 Posted January 7, 2012 I love music so I run into xian groups all the time. It really cracks me up when you find xian Trance music. Trance is usually associated with drugs. You can always tell xian music because the performer refers to god in that creepy "he" or "him" or "his" lyric. It's a very different usage from a real, Him, his, he. I personally feel like I can feel the artis loose their artistic passion when they use these terms. Anyhow, the best xian music in the universe is from Faith+1 I wish this was a better version, but everyone needs to watch the whole episode. Cartman reveals the secrets of how to write xian music.
LivingLife Posted January 7, 2012 Posted January 7, 2012 But did you not know looseyfur was not only the praize and worship leader in heaven but was also an instrument. When he was cast out of heaven he brought all the good shit with him and gave it to the satanic heavy metal bands, thank gawd, we had 'murikan xian moosishuns that took back the music looseyfur stole from gawd and offered it up in place of looseyfur. Problem is, the fucking idiots in xian bands are fucking pathetic and their music fucking bland to say the least. I know having been in the position of P&W leeder and trying to get some fucktard to understand the simple theories of music like scales, chords, transpositions etc. The band I played in were fucked if you transposed mid song as they were essentially "mom bought me a guitaar for xmas and here I am two praaaize the lard with my god(not) given talents". The few that make CD's are fair but never try and tell them what a diminished or augmented note/chord is, their fucking fingers are two dumb. I wrote my own music and the band could never accompany me as the chord structures were too complicated for them, I had to do them as solo items. Some of their songs I enhanced with extra chords and enriched them, I did a rendition of Amazing Grace that was far more complex and richer with these extra chords and nuances. Everyone loved it. But then their level of excellence is subjective. And the singers, tone deaf ugh! So yay looseyfur and metal rulez
Chikirin Posted January 7, 2012 Posted January 7, 2012 I notice an over-use of the sustained chord a lot in worship music, started to really get under my skin.
LivingLife Posted January 7, 2012 Posted January 7, 2012 Yeah that is a pentecostal thing. It is supposed to be angelic. Looseyfur must have only left the angels with one note
BrotherJosh Posted January 8, 2012 Posted January 8, 2012 Faith + 1.....Best. South Park. Ever. "I wanna get down on my knees and start pleasing Jesus, I wanna feel his salvation all over my face." 2
Guest ThereIsNoGod Posted January 11, 2012 Posted January 11, 2012 Through all this though, there are those who do genuinely hate mainstream secular music. Christian music is one alternative to the secular mainstream, along with all the other vast forms of alternative music. But here's where you ask the question "Is it an alternative, because it's too GOOD for the mainstream or too BAD for the mainstream". I've disliked a lot of secular music in the past decade. All kinds of secular music, mainstream and alternative. Perhaps, when I had first joined the church, I had hoped that today's christian rock would meet my needs better than secular rock. The truth is though, the past decade's christian rock has been the most mainstream compatible christian music ever. Some of the bands that Christian bookstores promote don't even class themselves as christian bands. I find though, that bands like Switchfoot, Skillet, Underoath, Anberlin, Flyleaf and P.O.D still distinguish themselves somewhat from other heavy rocking mainstream bands, but they've still managed to have just as much success. I suppose, with today's music, I'd be more inclined to admit that it's possible to GENUINELY prefer a lot of christian music over secular music. But as I said, christian music today is so mainstream compatible that people who genuinely enjoy christian music would also love a lot of secular music almost as much. Not the people though, who, before buying an album, check to see what religious beliefs the band has and automatically presume they'll like the christian bands better. Outside of praise and worship music, I find most christian music of today just as good/bad as secular. It isn't really much of an alternative to secular music anymore. I think christian bands still impose limits on themselves and don't do or say certain things that secular bands do (I've still never heard a christian band swear in a song), but frankly I don't think songs require much swearing to make them good songs. I hate a lot of the bravado in secular music, the swaggering and posing. Whats stupid though is that I see christian bands imitating the exact things I hate about secular music. I think it's really hard today, to find true alternative music which omits stuff I hate in mainstream music, without adding a whole lot of new stuff for me to hate.
London Posted January 12, 2012 Posted January 12, 2012 Growing up in the real MTV generation, where you could watch music videos 24 hours a day, you lear the difference between good and talented. Visually amazing really translates to a good band/artist. When you only listen and cannot see the group is when you can find the talented. There is nothing wrong with the visual, but music is audio. My true test is a pair of headphones, sitting in a chair with my eyes closed. Undivided attention. That's when the true test of talent appears. WOW, that sounds like a vision quest. Didn't mean to get so deep. xian music will always copy the mainstream as much as they can because music is very powerful. Watch any major movie and you will see how the music effects your perception of the scene. Hit mute and watch it without the music. Music IS a language all it's own, and it does not require lyrics either. Classical and Electronica are two powerful examples.
TotalWreck Posted January 16, 2012 Posted January 16, 2012 I've never understood why some Christians think that if a song doesn't praise God or Jesus that it's automatically horrible. Yes, there is a lot of stupid, trashy secular music, but there is also some really good secular music out there that has great, inspiring messages even though they aren't about God. But you can't explain that to Christians - if it isn't about the Lord, then it's automatically bad.
Guest ThereIsNoGod Posted January 17, 2012 Posted January 17, 2012 It's interesting when you look back at American history and the negro spirituals and later the Gospel music of the black churches. As far as i can see, musicians of all kinds were happy to sing the odd spiritual or gospel song while mainly performing blues or country songs, or jazz. Elvis did so, as did Johnny Cash. Two men regarded as genuine rock n roll heroes to say the least. Over the late 60s and early 70s was a resurgence of interest in the legends of Jesus, probably starting with the Jesus Christ Superstar rock opera. Also the gospel rock songs, "Spirit in the Sky" by Norman Greenbaum, "Jesus is Just Alright" by The Doobie Brothers (earlier The Byrds)...and the less well known "Are You Ready?" by Pacific Gas and Electric. And popular songs involving conversation with Jesus like "Fire and Rain" by James Taylor and "Why Me Lord?" by Kris Kristofferson. Also around the this time, Larry Norman became the "Father of Christian Rock" releasing his albums which expressed his own novel christian faith. My main point is, I think when Larry "fathered" christian rock, he took the fun out of christian music. True, his early music does sound like gospel music, with a little bit more seriousness. But I think his music led to the music of Keith Green who could be called the "father of christian pop". I think after Keith, christian music wasn't a fun diversion from mainstream music anymore. It was now in competition with mainstream music. Then came Amy Grant, Petra, Michael W Smith and others making attempts to sing about the world from a "christian perspective". While some of these artist might claim that they wern't trying to replace secular music I think their music tended to naturally throw people into a "am I secular or christian?" state. Actually, having recently read some articled interviews of Amy Grant, it's interesting to note that she claims that she always prefered secular music to christian music and thats what led her to become a mainstream musician. She was only part of her production team. She co-wrote songs, but Amy Grant was more or less a team, trying to come up with a sound that could be accepted by the mainstream. I think her 1985 album, Unguarded (her first mainstream hit), was a fair album. The producers and songwriters worked hard to produce some fair ear candy. Any christian messages were nicely backgrounded. During my church years I was always very determined to find some christian music that I could HONESTLY say I liked. Having heard loads of christian music now, there are a very select few christian albums I can admit are good albums. Generally I think the key to my liking it is, theres a genuine attempt to JUST MAKE GOOD MUSIC. Also I like it if there is an attempt to write ambiguous lyrics that have designed christian and secular interpretations and they're happy for people to prefer a secular interpretation.
London Posted January 17, 2012 Posted January 17, 2012 Elvis, Johnny Cash, country, stuff I grew up on. Some good memories. Then for me was the magical genre of the time, Soul music. That was it, I was hooked. I would never go back to listening to anything xian or Country (pseudo xian in my opinion). Even the pop music of the time was not going to do. You mentioned Jesus Christ Superstar, my parents owned that album. I watched it on TV. And that song began to take over my head just now. It is a fun song to sing, but... we would change the lyrics. "Je-sus Christ super-star, who in the hell do you think you are?" Then I saw you mentioned "Spirit in the Sky". Well that brought back memories of Nina Hagen. Lady Ga-Ga wishes she was Nina. Nina's vocal range is really amazing. And she knew how to be unique as a gimmic to draw attention to herself. I think xian music tries to keep people safe and focused on the cult, and they are afraid their children will become this. After much searching I cannot find a really good video of her doing Spirit in the Sky, here is the song anyhow. She is actually not xian religious, she is into UFO's and Krishna, and many other interesting things. She is worth watching on youtube. You get a lot of musical education with her. She was a classically trained opera singer so she plays with her voice a lot. She and Amy Grant have one thing in common, they both escaped the cult, but it always influences their music. Her best ones are New York, New York (not the show tune), and Universalles Radio (german is best). She did a cover of Personal Jesus that is SO funny. She has done other xian songs, Ave Maria.
London Posted January 17, 2012 Posted January 17, 2012 I REALLY have to add this one. Great voice, very funny virgin mary in this one.
London Posted January 17, 2012 Posted January 17, 2012 Apparently she recently became a protestant. Guess the cult wanted her back.
ConureDelSol Posted January 17, 2012 Posted January 17, 2012 I listen to a secular radio station at the church I work at. My dad has shown his distaste for some of it and complains about it's too loud and how "the people in the discipleship homes aren't allowed to listen to secular music." Strange thing is, if I listen to a classic rock station he doesn't complain at all. So that's what I put on if we're together. In addition, the people in the discipleship homes aren't allowed to read non-Christian books, see non-Christian movies, etc. These are the people the church picks up off the street and brainwashes them into obedience to our church. I can't count the number of unpaid staff there are at my church from that program. It's so wrong.
Droptail Posted January 17, 2012 Posted January 17, 2012 In addition, the people in the discipleship homes aren't allowed to read non-Christian books, see non-Christian movies, etc. These are the people the church picks up off the street and brainwashes them into obedience to our church. I can't count the number of unpaid staff there are at my church from that program. It's so wrong. "Off the street" as in homeless, I'm guessing? It seems that Christians love to take advantage of people at low points in their lives to introduce them to the indoctrination. Around here, there's a homeless shelther that includes "decisions for Christ" in its basic statistics along with meals served & beds provided. Back on track, Christian music was the only kind I listened to up until age 12 when my friend introduced me to the world of rap. Don't really care for rap now but neither for CCM, of course.
Guest ThereIsNoGod Posted January 17, 2012 Posted January 17, 2012 "Off the street" as in homeless, I'm guessing? It seems that Christians love to take advantage of people at low points in their lives to introduce them to the indoctrination. Around here, there's a homeless shelther that includes "decisions for Christ" in its basic statistics along with meals served & beds provided. Yes and theres also the prison ministry.....Alright, I know a prison minister and he's a pretty genuine guy.....he's been in prison himself and appreciates how desperate such people can be and doesn't want to take advantage of that. But if someone did want to indoctrinate lots of people, prison would probably be another good place to start.
Voice Posted January 17, 2012 Posted January 17, 2012 Couple of things to think about... As we talk about playing music that worships creation, consider that all of creation is composed of frequencies already. Many of these frequencies sound to us like conventional music, be it ambiance and/or trance music. Is music we create, either to worship God or creation or simply to enjoy for its own sake, a class of music apart from music of creation? If so, why? George Carlin said humans were created in order to create plastic, that they have no other purpose in creation. He pointed out that plastic could not be created in any other way than by humans. I used to enjoy what was to me quality christian music, written and performed by professional, educated musicians. Now i enjoy a lot of authentic (not imitation) metal, reggae, ghetto rap, alternative, and other "dark" genres. When i hear christian music now it's vacant and artificial, just like i was, with forced lyrics, forced performance, forced smiles. As an unemployed musician, i've thought for quite a while that creating a quality christian band would be a means to job security. How many of you enjoy going to your job? Some do i know and so would i prefer that. Many of us do not enjoy it, nor would i enjoy it, but it would be work and it would pay well enough. I say job security because christian music, though crap as i myself and many of you say, sells cd's. It's a sure thing. Most artists have to face the dilemma, do i sell out or do i preserve my integrity. If i did something like this it would be a hell of a sell out. U2 came out as a christian band. How? For that one line in Still Haven't Found What I'm Looking For. Between that and not writing hate lyrics, it's all they needed to sell to christian markets. For the record, i cringe at pop christian music.
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