Falloutdude Posted January 11, 2012 Posted January 11, 2012 Here is the case, in a very straightforward analysis: http://neardeath.woerlee.org/pam-reynolds-near-death-experience.php Here is an article critiquing, and dispelling misinformation perpetuated by proponents of the documented anecdote, in the form of an in-depth essay by secularist Keith Augustine. There are updated end notes which are relevant http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/keith_augustine/HNDEs.html#pam however I am pondering some missing or shaky information, and here is why I need some analytical assistance. This is one of those which would normally be emotional, but I am trying to assess it from an objective. rational, position. I will try to avoid emotional, irrational, rejection of proposed explanations, but I request some patience as I am still striving as hard as I can, and am still not very good with emotions, yet. Relevant details Pam Reynolds went under for a brain-aneurysm in 1991 She was briefed before-hand (without fore-knowledge of tools, or not is not known to me) She was conscious upon entering the room, reportedly seeing "so many" IVs She was put under anesthesia, and "awoke" to the "natural D" sound created, saw entered head around beginning She heard a brief conversation reportedly, which was verified by the doctors afterwards. Putting her experience at around the beginning, while she was still very much alive, about her veins being too small in her groin(where a particular "monitor" was being hooked up) Reported thoughts reveal strange thought-patterns, speaking of "thinking at the time she should have told the doctor her groin veins were too small. She had earplugs in which had speakers, intended to measure brain activity whilst operating. These speakers emitted 100 decibel "clicks". The frequency not allowing for a significant interval. Whether or not they were on at the time of the conversation is unclear among the sources. Questioned by some (Keith) , seemingly assumed by others (a particular debunker, Gerald Woerlee). Awoke to "Hotel California" around time when blood was warming/warmed up (when they were finishing up) Reported "seeing" a saw as like an "electric tooth brush" with "interchangeable blades" in a "socket-wrench like case", with a "groove at the top where the blade appeared to go into the saw" Accurate, except about the "groove", even puzzling the proponent-doctor. Design of pneumatic saw is similar in design to pre-existing dental equipment, used around time when Pam would have been involved in dental work (as a child), which were in popular use at the time in dental offices. Such dental tools also have interchangeable burs, which go into a "socket wrench like case" My confusion is whether or not the reported details can be explained by proposed explanations. Also, whether or not the ear plugs were going at the times she heard the conversation or the song, aren't really definitively known. Although, constant playing of 100 decibel "clicks" would probably render hearing damage, lending credence to the idea they were not playing at the very beginning or end. Furthermore, both instances of hearing something significant happened no where close to "death". Are these details sufficient to explain this phenomena logically or not, based on objective analysis? I ask because I'm too emotionally involved to assess this accurately for myself. Thank you for any responses addressing my questions, I appreciate it. F-Dude
Guest Valk0010 Posted January 11, 2012 Posted January 11, 2012 I am not totally sure why things like this have never bothered me. I guess its because i have realized that, we will never have enough facts, because most people don't experience this sort of thing, to accurately access the specific experiences. And at best it could only prove that there is a afterlife, not any specific one. Though I know your case, the existence of a afterlife automatically means a christian idea of afterlife, since anything remotely christian=christian's verison exist in your mind.
Falloutdude Posted January 11, 2012 Author Posted January 11, 2012 No it doesn't, just gives a chance to the possibility...I am aware of this. As I said though, this has to do with the "issue"/question of materialism or "dualism". Whether I have issues with Christianity in regard to this is irrelevant to this issue.... She's a Christian, and her "visions" promote such, so it's not very likely it promotes an ambiguous spiritual existence. Though, again, I didn't involved her "spiritual epiphany" because it isn't relevant to the discussion. I don't wish to get into a battle about how irrational or emotional I am, or about what this does or does not imply, and the reason I am asking for help analyzing this is irrelevant to the synopsis one would give. I am already significantly depressed (not because of this issue exclusively, or even primarily, but personal issues in my life) and am not up for a debate about how stupid I am...Although I know it's fun sport for those people who partake in such things, I have no wish to create such a target on my back, as it would most likely just make things worse for me. PS Some OBEs are "spiritual ambiguity" friendly, but most are much more inclusive. Specifically, to Christianity. Relative to Christian OBEs/NDEs, other "pagan" ones are almost non-existent, at least from my understanding, and what I have searched. There are a few others, but not nearly as detailed or reported as Christian ones.... Also, I'm glad my "case" is so clear-cut, makes for easy categorization and disregard, doesn't it?
scitsofreaky Posted January 11, 2012 Posted January 11, 2012 As far as I can tell there isn't really anything worth discussing. What exactly don't you think is sufficiently explained? PS Some OBEs are "spiritual ambiguity" friendly, but most are much more inclusive. Specifically, to Christianity. Relative to Christian OBEs/NDEs, other "pagan" ones are almost non-existent, at least from my understanding, and what I have searched. There are a few others, but not nearly as detailed or reported as Christian ones....Perhaps the Christian ones are so much more prevalent because they want to see proof of what they believe. Despite all the talk of having faith and believing, humans will always search for proof, and OBEs and NDEs seems to fit this role for the "believer."
Guest Valk0010 Posted January 11, 2012 Posted January 11, 2012 Well if, we are going to play a game of penis envy on mental issues, I think i got you beat. But anyway. All I said was, I don't worry about these sort of things because they don't prove any particular religious form of the afterlife. And forgive me for not assuming you would be consistent, and at imply that this is some how deconversion from christianity related. I think the misunderstanding is at my end. My apologies. Actually not exactly clear cut, it took me ages to realize that about near death experiences. So I guess you can write off what I have to say as well. I say that about, christian idea's of nde's that would send you into a panic. And if you would like be to be more specific I would. So what if a christian has a nde seeing jesus, that is at best confirmation bias. You see what you want to see or at best need to see or what your most afraid of. Does a atheist having a nde of hell mean there is a hell? No it just means he had a wacky experience and saw hell. Maybe something to it, but how the hell will we know for sure. There may be something to marian apparitions but how are we going to get enough evidence to access a soley personal experience. You can't, you can only report what they experience and what it did. So what, wacky shit influences lives all the time, big whoop. Do you believe in the resurrection or ghost stories, soley on accounts of events, no? Why believe NDE's then? And of course, christians will be a majority of the reports, a majority of people are christian. That is simply a evidence of odd's.
Falloutdude Posted January 11, 2012 Author Posted January 11, 2012 No, I was saying what I believe, that you were dismissing me as "that crazy obsessive guy, who's just nuts, so we can just ignore him". I interpreted your "i know your case" comment, as saying that you were somehow superior in intellect and understanding, and weren't to be troubled with such irrational, emotional fodder as myself. Like you were somehow superior in intelligence for having less anxiety or something...If this isn't what you were implying, I am sorry for my misinterpretation and subsequent stupidity.. I'm sorry for the misunderstanding, and my impudence. I just got rejected for no other reason than I'm weird, so I'm into believing that I'm totally worthless and that no one wants me or values me, so I am more prone to negative interpretations...I am also used to personal ridicule on this site, so I was lashing out...Not that it really excuses it, as I am usually one of the first to admit that actions done to an individual do not justify perpetuation of that behavior by that individual to others. You were correct in why it would concern me, but as I said, I refuse to combine the issues. I separate the issues so I cannot be personally attacked because of my irrational fears and therefore the issue brought forward dismissed. I wasn't comparing problems, I was saying I don't need people bashing me, because I'm already suicidal, so I refuse to get into a debate or discussion about how emotional or irrational I'm being by even bringing this up, as has happened in the past. I didn't mean to say, or even imply, I was having more difficulty than you, or anyone else, only that I was having emotional difficulty, aka depression and anxiety, along with suicidal thoughts.
Guest Valk0010 Posted January 11, 2012 Posted January 11, 2012 Well anyway I didn't mean offense, I was just addressing a problem you been having. I think I have sort of said all that i can say on this question. But its good that were cool dude, I didn't mean to offend.
Falloutdude Posted January 11, 2012 Author Posted January 11, 2012 As far as I can tell there isn't really anything worth discussing. What exactly don't you think is sufficiently explained? PS Some OBEs are "spiritual ambiguity" friendly, but most are much more inclusive. Specifically, to Christianity. Relative to Christian OBEs/NDEs, other "pagan" ones are almost non-existent, at least from my understanding, and what I have searched. There are a few others, but not nearly as detailed or reported as Christian ones....Perhaps the Christian ones are so much more prevalent because they want to see proof of what they believe. Despite all the talk of having faith and believing, humans will always search for proof, and OBEs and NDEs seems to fit this role for the "believer." What I was getting at was whether the auditory information could have been overheard, even if the ear plugs were going, as I don't know if they were, and it seems like even the person who thinks it's BS, is speaking as if he knew that they were, as his explanations were centered around this premise, so I was afraid this was a result of him knowing, or figuring out through interview, that the earplugs WERE playing. Although, like I said, I don't know if they were or not.
scitsofreaky Posted January 11, 2012 Posted January 11, 2012 Since we don't know, you are asking something that cannot be answered due to insufficient data.
mwc Posted January 11, 2012 Posted January 11, 2012 The explanations offered look reasonable to me. Look for surgeries in which people are supposedly anesthetized but are only paralyzed. They can't move but are conscious of the whole operation and can feel pain as well. This is in-line with what is explained in the web page but she is only conscious since the pain killers are effective for her. Here you go. It's called: Anesthesia Awareness (from Wikipedia). There are a ton of links if you Google for it covering the entire range of associated issues. mwc
Falloutdude Posted January 11, 2012 Author Posted January 11, 2012 Thank you mwc. I did read about anesthesia awareness. What produced confusion in my mind was if the "clicks" were playing during the portion which she heard.
Super Moderator florduh Posted January 11, 2012 Super Moderator Posted January 11, 2012 My confusion is whether or not the reported details can be explained by proposed explanations. They can be explained to the satisfaction of some, but not to others. Confirmation bias is in play for both views. I wish NDEs and OBEs could be proven to be true, but so far decades of study has turned up nothing definitive. Also, whether or not the ear plugs were going at the times she heard the conversation or the song, aren't really definitively known. So this aspect can't be addressed as the facts are unknown.
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