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Goodbye Jesus

Unhealthy Guilt/shame (Bisexuality)


Falloutdude

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I don't know how to explain it precisely...all I know is that when I am watching/thinking about homosexual actions or think about what I'm "doing", I find myself feeling scared and ashamed....I feel bad for my feelings and scared of whether or not this is a sign it's really "immoral" or not...This mostly happens when I start to think there might be some sort of god...even if not the Christian one...

 

Anyone able to help with this issue/has had some of the same problems? This issue is relatively new, as I didn't really admit to myself I might be bisexual until in about the past 2 months or less...However now, when I consider I might be wrong, I fear the repercussions still...Also I can't help but still be afraid that there is something wrong with what I am doing/thinking when I engage in those types of thoughts. About how "it's wrong" and "it's the result of perversion"

 

I don't like feeling this way, and want to be more comfortable with myself...but on the other hand I can't help but think something is wrong with what I'm doing. Even people who supposedly support it seem to have a problem with it, and I'm afraid this prevalent homophobia is a sign there really is something in us to tell us it is wrong...

 

Everyone keeps telling me to love myself more, and be more gentle with myself (psychologically of course), but I am scared of doing something that is "bad" still. Most of all, though, I really don't know how to go about doing that...I can try here and there, but I'm used to a higher standard for myself. In practice/academia, this has helped (at least it seems like it has), but I'm constantly getting depressed or feeling inadequate when I have no reason to be, or at least, so I'm told...At the same time, there is still a considerable stigma against homosexuality, and the groups that do support it are usually exclusively stereotypical homosexuals...That is, the overly dramatic or feminine guys (to be fair, I don't like overly feminine girls too much sometimes either). I have no problems with them being that way, if that's who they are, but that's not who I am, nor who I really want to hang out with. So all I have are straight, and some homophobic friends (even though they "support" homosexuality, they still belie the underlying rejection of the idea of two men being together). Also some closet homosexuals or bisexuals (it's kind of iffy).

 

I know there is strong correlation between homophobia and homosexual arousal/feelings, however, I don't know why this is or how to help myself out of it...I guess the big thing is usually that I am afraid if let go of my self-criticism I will become something or someone that isn't very special or particularly good at what I like being good at (school, writing, learning, etc). In this case, it's just a part of myself that I don't particularly enjoy or fully accept..

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I don't know how to explain it precisely...all I know is that when I am watching/thinking about homosexual actions or think about what I'm "doing", I find myself feeling scared and ashamed....I feel bad for my feelings and scared of whether or not this is a sign it's really "immoral" or not...This mostly happens when I start to think there might be some sort of god...even if not the Christian one...

 

The problem is that Christianity does a shame trip for heterosexuals as well. Attraction is just an animal instinct. We are animals after all. We get much same instincts as other mammals especially other primates. I remember in junior high I was constantly being told that sexuality was evil and don't give in to thoughts from the flesh. And every time I walked past a hot girl I thought I was being attacked by the devil. It's not just because you are bisexual. If you were strait you would have got the same brainwashing.

 

Anyone able to help with this issue/has had some of the same problems? This issue is relatively new, as I didn't really admit to myself I might be bisexual until in about the past 2 months or less...However now, when I consider I might be wrong, I fear the repercussions still...Also I can't help but still be afraid that there is something wrong with what I am doing/thinking when I engage in those types of thoughts. About how "it's wrong" and "it's the result of perversion"

 

As long as everybody is an adult and wants to be there you are okay. God never bothered to show up let alone tell us anything. Sorry but some guy telling us that God said something doesn't count, even if he tells us in a book he wrote.

 

I don't like feeling this way, and want to be more comfortable with myself...but on the other hand I can't help but think something is wrong with what I'm doing. Even people who supposedly support it seem to have a problem with it, and I'm afraid this prevalent homophobia is a sign there really is something in us to tell us it is wrong...

 

Emotions can be quite a wild ride. Even though the feelings are real they can lead us to the wrong answers.

 

Everyone keeps telling me to love myself more, and be more gentle with myself (psychologically of course), but I am scared of doing something that is "bad" still. Most of all, though, I really don't know how to go about doing that...I can try here and there, but I'm used to a higher standard for myself. In practice/academia, this has helped (at least it seems like it has), but I'm constantly getting depressed or feeling inadequate when I have no reason to be, or at least, so I'm told...At the same time, there is still a considerable stigma against homosexuality, and the groups that do support it are usually exclusively stereotypical homosexuals...That is, the overly dramatic or feminine guys (to be fair, I don't like overly feminine girls too much sometimes either). I have no problems with them being that way, if that's who they are, but that's not who I am, nor who I really want to hang out with. So all I have are straight, and some homophobic friends (even though they "support" homosexuality, they still belie the underlying rejection of the idea of two men being together).

 

Maybe you should ease yourself into feeling more comfortable. Maybe try a sex therapist to get over the cultural baggage?

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Hello Falloutdude, I relate and feel for you big time. Christianity's "message" against gays and lesbians was the initial issue that made me question it. I thought, how can God be all-loving and all-just and all-powerful if he sets up a world where there are gays and lesbians--who don't just decide one day to reject heterosexuality, but rather discover, usually when they're kids/teens, that they are so--and then condemns them to life-long celibacy or, if they have relationships as heterosexuals do, to hell? When I met my first lover of 24 years I saw I had a chance to say "yes" to life. My religious scruples dropped like a house of cards and after a while, I realized all the many other contradictions and absurdities of Christianity.

 

So I don't think the reasons why you feel ashamed are based on anything but the HUGE anti-gay force of culture. But not all human cultures have condemned same-sex love. Although forms of its expression were different from today, ancient Greece and Rome basically thought that people are bisexual. I think Freud said everyone is at root bisexual. I came to find females sexually attractive, but I am monogamous with my civil union partner!

 

I saw three different therapists at different times, but I think life experience and reasoning helped the most.

 

I'm not sure where you live, but there are a lot of straight people out there who are solidly in support of GLBT rights and are not homophobic. Are you still a student? Maybe you can broaden your network of friends or join new groups.

 

Must sign off now -- I'll check in later,

 

Peace, Ficino

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You have nothing to be ashamed of. You're among friends. It's good you're able to discuss this. Your questions are things only you can answer for yourself, but we're here to support your growth. These things take time to sort out, but you're on the right track.

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I think that the general attitude of Christians (or really just about any religion) towards homosexuality has created the fear you face. That fear has been ingrained in you since the day you were born. In the same way, there were people who were raised to hate black people in earlier days and to this day, cannot shake their irrational hatred and just feel that blacks are somehow the spawn of Satan.

 

I think it takes time and therapy to heal wounds like that. In time, you won't feel guilty anymore. When you have someone else around you that can affirm that there is nothing wrong with your bisexuality, that will help.

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...I'm afraid this prevalent homophobia is a sign there really is something in us to tell us it is wrong...

People tend to fear and hate ANYTHING that is beyond their own "normal" behavior. It's not just homosexuality. Entire races and religions are automatically hated. Education is mistrusted in some circles. A lot of people hate hillbillies. Are all those things intrinsically wrong just because some people are against them?

 

Back to that goddam Bible again - according to that collection of fables and lies, the god of the Hebrews also hates unmarried heterosexual activity and unruly children to the point of imposing the death penalty on offenders. That god hates damn near everything, not just gays; his believers are just currently focused on a "sin" that echoes their own prejudices.

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...I'm afraid this prevalent homophobia is a sign there really is something in us to tell us it is wrong...

People tend to fear and hate ANYTHING that is beyond their own "normal" behavior. It's not just homosexuality. Entire races and religions are automatically hated. Education is mistrusted in some circles. A lot of people hate hillbillies. Are all those things intrinsically wrong just because some people are against them?

 

Based on my own experiences, I think hetero people may be little afraid of homosexuals (or bisexuals) because they, personally, aren't attracted to members of the opposite sex, so their attempts at empathising can go wrong. I, personally, feel very uncomfortable when hetero couples make out in public; I get that "sick to my stomach" feeling (and yes, I know this is my problem and not theirs). I feel similarly uncomfortable seeing two guys displaying a lot of affection. But if it was two women, that would be really hot and I'd want to watch. Before I discovered that last point, I had very negative views of everyone's displays of sexuality and wondered why people couldn't just do that in private. Turns out I was just having a feeling of "that's not a coupling I'd want to be part of" and just try to keep my emotional distance (which is hard if they're really getting into it and projecting strong emotions).

 

That realization has helped me be more patient with people who are theoretically ok with gays but are still squeamish about the idea. If it wasn't for the fact that I'm visually attracted to my own sex, I'd probably be one of those people. (Note: I'm about a 5 on the kinsey scale and have been attracted to enough men that I consider myself bi; it's just that women are a whole lot prettier.)

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I guess the big thing is usually that I am afraid if let go of my self-criticism I will become something or someone that isn't very special or particularly good at what I like being good at (school, writing, learning, etc). In this case, it's just a part of myself that I don't particularly enjoy or fully accept..

 

Hi Fallout, just adding... I think a self-critical faculty is good, and self-hatred is bad. The "system" founded largely on religion puts out a lot of effort to teach you to hate yourself. As others have said above, I agree that the system would have you hate your natural self no matter what your orientation, but if you're gay or bi, its effects are so magnified that it would be hard not to internalize some of the hatred. Since not all cultures or historical epochs have had the same attitudes, homophobia of the type you describe is NOT a sign that it is wrong to be who you are.

 

Since you are into academics and the life of the mind, I think you would profit from investigating things like the history of sexuality and gender. Also novels and memoirs. I have read that the Sioux culture conceived of four possible sex roles for people. I remember as a college freshman weeping over parts of Plato's Symposium (from my perspective today I think its exaltation of a sort of proto-monastic ideal is not so great). Knowledge is vital, especially when you're young and the dominant culture either hides important things from you and/or feeds you lies.

 

Many power structures are skilled at getting people to doubt themselves and their deepest moral intuitions and fear reprisals of various kinds, as you well know (and as all of us on Ex-C hear from extimonies every week). The ability to say "sod off, you blighter" is a big help.

 

I'm not sure whether any part of your struggle right now has to do with wondering whether you're bi or gay. It may not help much to say this, but I'll suggest that this question, if you're grappling with it, may be largely itself a cultural artifact. As Vacuum Flux indicated, lots of people fall somewhere on a range, and they may experience changes over the years.

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It takes practice to undo a line of thinking just like it took practice to put it there. It takes time and exercise, just like working out a muscle.

 

Your physical posture and reactions have a LOT to do with old mental "tapes" that are playing in your head.

 

Your first step when you catch yourself feeling ashamed is to start trying to notice where you are tensing up in your body. If your shoulders are tense, then consciously relax them. If you feel yourself breathing shallowly, take a deep breath.

 

Straighten up your back, take a few deep breaths, and imagine in your mind what somebody who doesn't give a shit about anything thinks, feels like, stands like, talks like, and acts like. Imitate that. The more you practice that daily, the more it starts becoming reality.

 

And like I said, it takes practice and conscious, regular exercise of this to make it stick and grow strong. Eventually, your old mental tapes will be rewritten.

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Christianity is a religion where you have to feel guilty and ashamed about yourself no matter what. It's also the case if you are not homo- or bisexual. As a Christian I felt TERRIBLE guilt just about masturbation. I felt dirty and like the scum of the Earth and like I'm the worst person ever. Just because I took what the Bible says very seriously. In the Bible, after all, Jesus says just looking at someone with lust is fornication, as if you really had sex with that person. And it doesn't even have to be sexual. Jesus also said to be angry with someone is the same as murder. (Never mind he himself had anger issues...) So whenever I was angry with someone I felt guilty as well. The Bible is all about making one feel guilty and then offering him "the solution". It's all about control.

 

The reason why so many people feel guilt and shame about their sexuality has nothing to do with sex (whether hetero- or homosexual sex) being inherently wrong or dirty or shameful or it being a "sin". We feel that way because most of us live in cultures based on religions those have their roots in ages where people were a lot more ignorant about sexuality than they are now. There were lots of misconceptions about it and those religious teachings only mirror that ignorance. One might argue that even in secular and anti-religious societies (such as communism) homosexuality was/is considered wrong and even punishable. But even if there is an anti-religious system they cannot totally shake off hundreds and thousands of years of influence of religious dogma (even if they aren't consciously following some religious "values"). Had the Greek culture prevailed people might look at homosexuality a completely different way today. Probably it would be considered as normal and no big deal at all.

 

Since I don't believe in God all the guilt regarding sex went away. Religious dogma has no control over me any more. Why should I feel guilty about something with that I do not harm anyone?

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I'm a lot better than I used to be at not doubting myself as much, or at least not letting myself halt my functioning or fun completely...but still do a lot of "what iffing", especially with those infamous stories which "prove" or might be evidence of an afterlife or mind-brain separation...

 

and paul, I actually used to tell myself it was just that..but i've discovered it's more than that. I thought that's all it was or might be, but then I gave into my feelings and realized I liked the idea of male intimacy, and even am aroused by the idea of having sex with another man, which I had suppressed until now...Even though I still LOVE women, I am also aroused by homosexual pornography or even just fantasizing of intimate contact with another male.

 

I know that a lot of other cultures don't find it immoral, but it seems like our whole western (european) culture has a long and vicious history of homophobia and anti-homosexual ideology...

 

I guess I still harbor uncertainty about "God" and such, specifically Christianity, which emerges mostly from knowledge about "unexplained" phenomena (I say this because it's not definite that it's explained or not, but probably could meet a lot of people's standards as "explained" were it not for the bias of wishing to believe in a soul, or bias of not wanting to believe...) This clash of biases, mingled with uncertainty, are enough to keep the embers of fear and shame burning while I'm in my most confident and secure place...

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I know that a lot of other cultures don't find it immoral, but it seems like our whole western (european) culture has a long and vicious history of homophobia and anti-homosexual ideology...

 

Study up on ancient Grease. Alternative sexuality was more accepted and in some city-states it was dominant. Sparta anyone? And of course Western culture is based on Greek.

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Study up on ancient Grease.

I have some ancient grease in the bottom of my camp stove.

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Study up on ancient Grease.

I have some ancient grease in the bottom of my camp stove.

 

That figures. I heard that when you go camping, yugoslobbier than most. You like a big messdonya?

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Study up on ancient Grease.

I have some ancient grease in the bottom of my camp stove.

 

Sorry, I could not spell to save my life. If the spell checker approves then the rest of you have to suffer. :)

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Ancient Grease was the original version starring John Travolta and Olivia Newton-John, right?

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Guest ThereIsNoGod

I guess, intolerance for homosexuality started with the Hebrews. I personally think Jesus probably helped to bring tolerance toward homosexuality. When the Christian church and the Roman Empire united I think that sealed the fate of homosexuality for hundreds and hundreds of years. And even now we have "Kill the Fags!" groups. We all might have to wait a while before there is true acceptance of homosexuality again.

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Study up on ancient Grease.

I have some ancient grease in the bottom of my camp stove.

 

Hmmm... and what exactly are you planning to do with it?? smiliejerkoff.gif

 

Ancient Grease was the original version starring John Travolta and Olivia Newton-John, right?

 

Yes and Modern Greece starred Maxwell Caulfield & Michelle Pheiffer.

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I guess I still harbor uncertainty about "God" and such, specifically Christianity, which emerges mostly from knowledge about "unexplained" phenomena (I say this because it's not definite that it's explained or not, but probably could meet a lot of people's standards as "explained" were it not for the bias of wishing to believe in a soul, or bias of not wanting to believe...) This clash of biases, mingled with uncertainty, are enough to keep the embers of fear and shame burning while I'm in my most confident and secure place...

 

I know that you know this but I am going to repeat it.

"god" exists (in xianity) because a book tells us of his alleged existence. That book is not consistent in timeline or facts. The proof is in just reading it. The bible says that god is ALL powerful, but instead of fixing the defects in mankind, he ignores us. That's not all powerful. The bible has been tampered with, there are multiple versions of it, and books are missing and held back by the church. And there are stories that are stolen from other religions. If the bible, which informs us of this "god", were actually true, there would be only 1 version of the bible. 1 religion worldwide. It would be in 1 language that all humans could read, and it would be an indistructable document. It would know about things like computers and how society would and will change.

 

The bible is just a book. xianity is a mind control cult, you are required to hate yourself and always feel bad. That's how they win. A free mind is a dangerous weapon, because rational thought allows individuality. Individuals cannot be slaves, and they need slaves in the cult. It gives them a sick power. Flashback: Hitler.

 

This cult is older and MORE damaging than Hitler. Hitler was just a whiney little bitch compared to the damage xianity has done to the Earth.

 

Your doubting that god is a myth is the mind control. Your fear of being yourself is because you were taught to stop being human. The only way to move forward is to look that fear in the face, get pissed off at it holding you back from happiness and tell it to fuck off. If god did exist he would want humans to be happy right? He is a myth and I do get to put words in his mouth, just like the writers of the bible.

 

Part of the fear is also the fear of success. Or rather happiness. Don't fear happiness. Yes the cult requires unhappiness, but remember, it's a cult. It's not normal. It is the biggest example of abnormal.

 

I guess because I am gay, I have always looked at xianity as pure utter crap. Once I learned that god loves everyone but the homo's, I realized it's all a big sick fucking lie. I did not know at the time what a huge lie it was, but I have done quite a bit of digging since then. And at some point I stopped looking for more proof that xianity was bunk. My rational mind told me that I knew enough to know the truth. The basic foundation of that religion is the book. The book is a crock of shit. Dorothy knows the wizard is not a god, open the curtain and see.

 

I know there is strong correlation between homophobia and homosexual arousal/feelings, however, I don't know why this is or how to help myself out of it...I guess the big thing is usually that I am afraid if let go of my self-criticism I will become something or someone that isn't very special or particularly good at what I like being good at (school, writing, learning, etc). In this case, it's just a part of myself that I don't particularly enjoy or fully accept..

 

It's called self-hatred. Part of it is taught and part of it is used as a tool to stop yourself from being happy. It's a different mix for everyone. You help yourself out of it by accepting who you are. No one else's opinion matters, just yours. Over time you will not hate yourself. It takes time. And you will run into freaks who tell you that you are a bad person. That NEVER ends. Just remember that you just had an encounter with an idiot, and there are lots of them all over the globe. It's a bit unsetteling at times, but they mean nothing. Idiots have no value. Think of them as circus freaks who have escaped from the circus.

 

You need to let go of your self criticism. That's the part that harms you. Self monitoring is fine, but requiring yourself to be perfect is failure, immediate failure. It's not a possibility for any living creature. If you believe that staying exactly how you are right now is how you should be your whole life, you have just stopped living. Choosing to stay in stasis will cripple you. We all have to grow and evolve. Change happens no matter what. Two examples, 1) Time. No one has control of time, it moved ahead no matter what. No exceptions. 2) Death. We age every second, eventually all living entities cease to exist. No exceptions. So when you choose to live within the parameters of that your perspective changes. We use time as a tool to help us schedule goals, events, happiness. We use death to remember that we need to live a happy life before it expires. So why spend 80 years wondering if there is a mythical "thing" in the sky and not being happy instead. Why spend 80 years researching what your rational mind knows is a myth?

 

Fear kills. It kills happiness, joy, life. You kill fear by eating away at IT, not it eating you. You eat away at it by doing small things that you fear, one at a time. Then you do something larger. Eventually fear is just a word. And the only time fear is an emotion is when someone has a gun in your face. That would be natural fear. The cult does not allow personal freedom. That is where the fear comes from. If you actually act on your desire to listen to non-xian music, read non-xian books, watch porn, have sex, stay up all night, whatever, you become fearful. That fear is not normal or healthy. You are not being bad. Bad is killing people. Stealing, lying, rape. Choosing to be the real you is never, ever a bad thing. I guarantee that when you let fear control your whole life, you will have lost your whole life.

 

We all get scared from time to time, and we all worry about what we should do. It is only when we can be real with ourself that we can rationally solve the issue. That whole "what other people think" mentality needs to be flushed down the toilet. If you like men, then you like men. If you like men & women, then you like men & women. If you like women, then you like women. Just own it. When others question it, just own it. When you can clearly answer out loud without caring what others think, is when you own it. This is me, this is who I am. Period. That's the attitude that kills fear. And that's the attitude that allows you to worry about the more important issues in life.

 

People will always find something to hate you for. But I find that I love when people hate me because I know who I am. They hate my confidence in myself and my abilities. It took a long time to get there. So hating me for doing all that work on myself is really a compliment. And an easy look into how the hater is in an unhappy place themselves. The reality is, they don't really hate me, the project their own dissatisfaction with themselves on someone who posses traits they want.

 

Ok, so this post is wayyy too long and I need to shut up now. Hope some of that was helpful.

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Falloutdude, I've struggled with a lot of the same things you're talking about (i.e guilt, shame, fear, doubt etc.) when it comes to accepting being gay. What really helped me was reading pro-gay blogs that talk about stuff like gay rights, famous gay figures (not just singers/entertainers, but politicians, activists etc.) and, at the time at least, reading and learning about different interpretations of the biblical scriptures that condemn homosexuality.

 

It's probably already been repeated by other posters, but I think the biggest thing you'll have to face is changing the way you think about being bi. I know that when I was coming out, I kinda assumed that iI would tell everyone, all the negative emotions would disappear and I'd walk down the rainbow road when some hot man candy lol. I think of a lot us gays, especially those of us who grew up in religious environments, think when we said the words "I'm gay/bi" that we'll instantly live happily ever after. But getting there takes work.

 

I think it just takes time and you repeating to yourself what you know to be true: That you didn't choose to be bi. That being in relationship with someone of the same sex is neither good or bad, but is simply different from the majority. And that people fear and hate what they don't understand, and try to transfer those feelings to you so that you can feel inferior and they can superior about themselves. You say you only admitted to yourself that you were bisexual two months ago, so think of it this way; up until however old you are now, you've been actively hiding and suppressing you who really are. Years of doing that day in and day out isn't going to disappear overnight. I'm not saying that to depress or discourage you, but I've found this be true in my own coming out (I came out to myself at 19, first felt I might be gay at 8, so you do the math:). In a way you have to reprogram your mind from "I don't like this, I'll fight it to the death!" to "This is me. And I love it." It will take time to feel comfortable in your own skin (I still struggle sometimes in little ways) but if you seek out media (movies, books, blogs. forums like this) and supportive people, it will get easier.

 

Maybe you could join a gay-straight alliance if you're in school? Or starting or joining a Meet Up group could be helpful, especially if you live in a large city. Or if you want to vent about what you're feeling, blogging was a big help for me.

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