Reincarnation

[Deva]

The question of reincarnation arose in the thread "Do You Have Experience With The Supernatural?" So I thought it would be nice to open a separate thread on this subject.

 

Is reincarnation valid or possible? What is the evidence for it and is it convincing to you, why or why not?

 

Do you think people can reincarnate as animals or animals to humans? If not, why not?

 

Can people or animals reincarnate into bodies on different planets?

 

Please be respectful of others points of view.

[Legion]

Since we have a thread dedicated to the subject, I want to repeat my view here.

 

In my opinion reincarnation is a metaphor. It's a metaphor for the "death" of a person's ego, and its rebirth or re-formation.

[Margee]

Deva, I have never really dabbled in this subject, but somehow, it interests me. I do not understand everything they say about matter and energy, but I have tried to understand that all 'matter' turns back into 'energy' and it just goes back into the atmosphere. Why couldn't it be 'born again'?

 

I'll be interested to watch this thread grow. I'm sure there's going to be some interesting reading!!

[Foxy Methoxy]

Energy cannot be destroyed. Human life and experience are fueled by subtle energies. Foxy believes these energies are eternal. They can be dispersed into other forms. They evolve to a point in which they are no longer recognizable to their previous forms. But they persist.

[Margee]

Energy cannot be destroyed. Human life and experience are fueled by subtle energies. Foxy believes these energies are eternal. They can be dispersed into other forms. They evolve to a point in which they are no longer recognizable to their previous forms. But they persist.

Makes sense. But - does energy that was once 'matter' remember who they are? Does a chair remember that it was a chair? 'They' say (the experts) that EVERYTHING has a certain amount of conciouness? ''Even the rocks cry out''.......??

[Foxy Methoxy]

Energy cannot be destroyed. Human life and experience are fueled by subtle energies. Foxy believes these energies are eternal. They can be dispersed into other forms. They evolve to a point in which they are no longer recognizable to their previous forms. But they persist.

Makes sense. But - does energy that was once matter 'remember' who they are? Does a chair remember that it was a chair? 'They' say (the experts) that EVERYTHING has a certain amount of conciouness? ''Even the rocks cry out''.......??

 

Foxy cannot answer this question for Margee. Only Margee can answer this question for Margee.

 

Namaste

[Voice]

Sweet. Thanks Deva

 

I think that for us to talk about reincarnation at all, we have to presume there is a coherent spirit in some kind of after life that can maintain long term memory through hosts to continually learn lessons.

 

 

For the reincarnation topic, i'd bring in some of the stuff i said about reincarnation from the other thread, but there's so much more others said about accounts that support the idea, and about thoughts on the subject:

http://www.ex-christ...h-supernatural/

I think we started talking about it more in depth on page 6 or 7?

 

So there was the woman i knew who was clinically dead for over 30 minutes, let's say her name's J. I'll bring her up again since in my experience, her case is the strongest for reincarnation models. She came back from the other side with a new belief in a universe of reincarnations. She described a place that was like a station, a waiting area. She said there are different levels of development, troubled souls, old souls, young souls, and souls who stay at the station as helpers, to assist souls transitioning from one incarnation to the next. According to her, the assistants had reached a level of development somewhere higher than those moving from life to life.

 

There are consistent expressions from J and from other people with after life accounts that describe time as being a 2 dimensional plane. Hard for us to imagine, but if we were raised to a higher dimension it would make sense. If time were 2D we would be able to look at it anywhen, put our finger through it anywhen, future, past, present, it wouldn't matter.

 

So, if reincarnation is a way our "spirit" could go on, and we observed lives existing in a 2D plane, i think it would be arguable you could have a "past" life in the future or the past, and even exist twice or more in the present so as to interact with yourself. lol... I'm thinking outside the box, or the plane?

More than one person has told me that i'm from the future, and that i've had a past life in the future. I just say "hmm..."

I like to joke that i was an alien in a past life. Besides, aliens are just humans coming back to us from the future anyway.

 

I'm pretty sure there are threads here already that argue whether animals have souls/spirits.

I have no doubt that all life is sentient, aware in some way. If you want to think otherwise, remember it's the church that teaches otherwise. So a living thing has 26 chromosomes or 13. Both are simply expressions of an organic molecule. I think a plant's awareness would be a conglomerate of skin, a stomach and a heart, existing in a world both warm and cold, with friends/family, and enemies. Very simple and slow, but a form of awareness.

 

I see no reason any spirit going through incarnations couldn't visit the lifespan of any sentient thing, in a past life or a future life.

Sometimes i joke that a dog has to be a human before it can be a dog. I know a dog right now that everyone who thinks of souls as old or young says is an old soul. "Wow, he's an old soul!" I think he seems like it too. I call him a Zen master. Sometimes it's almost weird to see him do doggie things. You don't think of him that way.

[Legion]

Few people wish to die. And they will concoct all kinds of "systems" which say "You won't really die." And they HAVE concocted them.

[Vigile]

Let's assume that reincarnation happens. Self, IMO is your ego and your memories. If I existed as someone/something else before I was born, I have no way to tangibly recognize that. Since no one can reasonably recognize this we can safely assume we won't recall in any tangible way our ego or our memories if we are reincarnated after death. In this case, it's not YOU that moves on or that preexisted, rendering the question of reincartion moot from a survival perspective.

[Deva]

Legion - what is behind this fear of death? I mean, animals see death all the time, I suppose they don't think of it all the time like we do, or do they? When I have seen animals die, it seems like no big deal - they just sit there or lay there until they fall over.

 

If death is natural -and we can all agree that it is at least on the physical level - why this big deal?

 

This may seem like a simple or stupid question. But I still wonder. I am a deep thinker -

[Deva]

I have thought of another possibility - given the great and unimaginable length of time the universe has been in existence and how long it still has to go in the future, even given 4 billion years of evolution to produce who we are - why would this not happen again?

 

Given enough time, enough different planets in the universe (and there are plenty, it appears) is it so beyond the realm of possibility that my body might be duplicated, exactly - if so, would that be "me"?

 

I am here now, why not again??

 

Perhaps this gets into how would clones be the same/different, but I don't really want to go there.

 

This question gets to the ultimate question of "what or who am I?" What transfers?

[Vigile]

Legion - what is behind this fear of death? I mean, animals see death all the time, I suppose they don't think of it all the time like we do, or do they? When I have seen animals die, it seems like no big deal - they just sit there or lay there until they fall over.

 

If death is natural -and we can all agree that it is at least on the physical level - why this big deal?

 

This may seem like a simple or stupid question. But I still wonder. I am a deep thinker -

 

You didn't ask me, and I'm sure Legion will add a very good biological perspective, but here's my take. All higher forms of animal life as far as I know have a strong survival instinct. Cats, for instance, have the ability to transform themselves to make themselves appear threatening when they face fear. In one way or another, all higher forms of animal life have evolved to mitigate the risks in their environment or they don't gain the edge they need to survive.

 

Humans simply have evolved the capacity to internalize this same process as we have brains capable of self-reflection and even imagination. It stands to reason then that our ability to imagine would be used to create ways to continue to survive even if imagination doesn't reflect physical reality.

[Vigile]

I am here now, why not again??

 

But how would it be YOU?

 

The variables that make you who you are are virtually infinite, down to the parents you had, the people you meet, the experiences have had, the genetic make up you were born with, etc...

 

Mathmatically, who you are would be virtually impossible to reproduce.

[Deva]

Mathmatically, who you are would be virtually impossible to reproduce.

 

Possibly. Still, given billions of years and billions of planets, it could get close. Not saying it would be entirely possible to reproduce all the experiences though.

 

What most influnces us, our genetics or our experiences? I don't really know.

[Legion]

Legion - what is behind this fear of death?

Deva, I think every parent and grandparent we've had, wanted to live and reproduce all the way back, 4 billion years. Nature strongly selects for those who really, really, desire to live. This seems almost axiomatic to me.

 

If I get a wild hair to do some mortally risky things, or even get careless about my life, then the chances of me dying before I reproduce are greater. And the tendency to be risky or careless dies with me. It is not passed on to the next generation.

 

That's my take anyway. Did it make sense?

[Foxy Methoxy]

I am here now, why not again??

 

But how would it be YOU?

 

The variables that make you who you are are virtually infinite, down to the parents you had, the people you meet, the experiences have had, the genetic make up you were born with, etc...

 

Mathmatically, who you are would be virtually impossible to reproduce.

 

Foxy agrees with this, and yet, part of it would be you, only in a different form.

[Deva]

Legion - what is behind this fear of death?

Deva, I think every parent and grandparent we've had, wanted to live and reproduce all the way back, 4 billion years. Nature strongly selects for those who really, really, desire to live. This seems almost axiomatic to me.

 

If I get a wild hair to do some mortally risky things, or even get careless about my life, then the chances of me dying before I reproduce are greater. And the tendency to be risky or careless dies with me. It is not passed on to the next generation.

 

That's my take anyway. Did it make sense?

 

Yes, I understand natural selection. Yet, it doesn't seem to me to be a complete explanation. Not sure I can explain it.

[Noggy]

I am a combination of all the food, all the air, all the water that me and my parents have eaten.

 

Existence is not like we think it is. That is not a chair. This is not a cat. It's more like a chair-cat. It's the atoms that make them up, vibrating in a certain order, for a certain period of time. In a few years the atoms inside my cat will be a phone, and a tree, and a person.

[Legion]

Yes, I understand natural selection. Yet, it doesn't seem to me to be a complete explanation. Not sure I can explain it.

Well evolution is not the entire picture. In philosophy it is fairly well known that there is a difference bewteen the explanation of what a thing IS and how it CAME TO BE. In biology this translates into a difference between evolution and physiology.

 

But more on topic... I am just extremely wary of any system of thought which appears to be a denial of death.

[Noggy]

Yes, I understand natural selection. Yet, it doesn't seem to me to be a complete explanation. Not sure I can explain it.

Well evolution is not the entire picture. In philosophy it is fairly well known that there is a difference bewteen the explanation of what a thing IS and how it CAME TO BE. In biology this translates into a difference between evolution and physiology.

 

But more on topic... I am just extremely wary of any system of thought which appears to be a denial of death.

 

I don't think it's a denial of death, as much as it is a realization that death and life are the same thing.

[Legion]

... death and life are the same thing.

Noggy I like your quirkiness. It's endearing. But this above is flat wrong.

[Noggy]

... death and life are the same thing.

Noggy I like your quirkiness. It's endearing. But this above is flat wrong.

 

You've peaked my interest.

[Eugene39]

But how would it be YOU?

 

The variables that make you who you are are virtually infinite, down to the parents you had, the people you meet, the experiences have had, the genetic make up you were born with, etc...

 

Mathmatically, who you are would be virtually impossible to reproduce.

 

Reincarnation seems impossible to me also. Each of us is a product of our parents. There was a time that I did not exist as a person. The molecules that were me existed in some other form, probably as dirt somewhere that became food, which my parents ate, and became the sperm and egg. The process of life consuming life so that my life can continue goes today except now my parents are out of the loop. Who I am as a person with consciousness is simply my brain doing its job - cerebral cortex at work. My consciousness came forth out of the blackness of non-existence, and when my brain dies, my consciousness will end and the only way I will continue is as a memory in the consciousness of the ones I've left behind. That's my 2 cents.

[Margee]

Yes, I understand natural selection. Yet, it doesn't seem to me to be a complete explanation. Not sure I can explain it.

Well evolution is not the entire picture. In philosophy it is fairly well known that there is a difference bewteen the explanation of what a thing IS and how it CAME TO BE. In biology this translates into a difference between evolution and physiology.

 

But more on topic... I am just extremely wary of any system of thought which appears to be a denial of death.

 

I don't think it's a denial of death, as much as it is a realization that death and life are the same thing.

What do you mean noggy? Can you explain that a little more?

[Margee]

But how would it be YOU?

 

The variables that make you who you are are virtually infinite, down to the parents you had, the people you meet, the experiences have had, the genetic make up you were born with, etc...

 

Mathmatically, who you are would be virtually impossible to reproduce.

 

I agree Vigile. Everything would have to be identical in the next life...same parents......same moments in time, etc.......

 

So that would mean that who you are right now, will not be the same person in the next life. If it is all about matter and energy - then it would only be the 'energy' going back to be reincarnated.......right? One would still have to grieve their own death knowing that you will never know yourself again. I know I'm rambling.....am I on the right track?