Update After Coming Out Of The Closet With The Wife

[SusanStoHeli]

It's funny - Christianity seems to think that Satan is more powerful than God - he can do things that God does not want him to, is able to torment people, right under God's nose, has to be fought in a massive battle - none of this would be necessary unless Satan were as powerful or more powerful than God. Heck, look at the concept of Jesus sacrificing himself for our sin - an all powerful god could just change the rules, instead of requiring this bloody snuff film.

 

Just give her time - it took you plenty of time, and she's starting from scratch. And when you believe you've had religious experiences, of course you believe those are real. If I looked at the sky, and saw it was green, I'd believe that, no matter how much scientific proof said it was blue.

 

I know it's hard, to see someone you love believing this BS, but give her time.

[★ Citsonga ★]

The lucifer myth is also a deliberate mistranslation and is the only place this word comes up and mistranslated compared to the other root words in Hebrew.

 

The "Lucifer" reference is also taken completely out of context. The passage is about the King of Babylon, not Satan.

[TrueFreedom]

I don't know if it would help to tell her this, but Satan and hell didn't even show up in the Bible until the New Testament. Jews don't believe in a literal Satan... Just a thought.

[mcdaddy]

Update: I chose a basic approach to dig into Genesis. I brought up the creation timeline and the discrepancies on Genesis 1 and2. BTW This is not my forte. I didnt stop believing because the bible had flaws. I stopped because it was stupid and irrational. Then after I had my eyes opened I learned about the flaws. I have xian glasses on when reading so I wasnt looking for them whan i read the bible. this part of it is all new to me. So picking through genesis was not the best approach. She did catch the contradiction before stupid me caught it and the footnotes gave some off the wall explanation for the discrepancy so today was useless. The problem is the deconversion works on its own when you get a neutral perspective with no bias. I say things like "dont you have ANY doubts or HAVE you EVER" and she doesnt have any..... an effin' puppet if you ask me. I brought up a book by frank turek which talks about why we should have faith and this is something that never crossed her mind. I asked why she believes the bible and shes a christian and she doesnt have an answer but the crap answer I get it you can "feel" it. from my sister too. then they talked about how they had been in wrecks and walked away. pure chance if you ask me but its god to them....and they "feel" him. UGGGHHHH. I'll try again tomorrow.

 

Theres hundreds of random websites out there that list the thousands of biblical contradictions, fallacies, errors, etc. Just print a few pages off and leave em on the table. Either she'll eat them, or read them.

 

 

 

 

 

If she eats them, have the Ipecac ready.

 

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4eYSpIz2FjU

[★ Citsonga ★]

I don't know if it would help to tell her this, but Satan and hell didn't even show up in the Bible until the New Testament. Jews don't believe in a literal Satan... Just a thought.

 

You're only half right. Hell (more accurately, the lake of fire for eternal punishment) is not in the Old Testament. However, Satan is in the Old Testament, albeit only minimally. The most prominent OT text regarding Satan is the book of Job, but he is also mentioned in Zechariah and 1 Chronicles. Interestingly, the first mention of Satan in the Bible is 1 Chronicles 21:1, meaning that the first twelve books don't mention him at all (including a previous telling of the same story as 1 Chron 21 in 2 Samuel 24, which has God be the inciter rather than Satan). Though Satan clearly had yet to evolve into the prominent opponent of God that he became in the NT, the OT is not completely devoid of him.

[Peace]

Just wanted to say I'm sorry you're in this rough spot. I'm hoping to hear some positive updates in the future, hoping she'll come around. You're being so patient and loving, you can be proud of how well you're handling this.

[TrueFreedom]

Citsonga: those references where only attributed to Satan after the canonization of the NT. The concept of Satan came from Eastern/Western syncretism, during the Greco-Roman empire. It seems to have originated with the Hindus.

[mcdaddy]

I was under the impression Satan originally came from the dualistic nature of Zoroastrianism in Persia.

[TrueFreedom]

probably

[★ Citsonga ★]

Citsonga: those references where only attributed to Satan after the canonization of the NT. The concept of Satan came from Eastern/Western syncretism, during the Greco-Roman empire. It seems to have originated with the Hindus.

 

"Satan" is the Hebrew term used in the OT:

 

http://www.bluelette...ngs=H7854&t=KJV

 

In the OT, he is seen as sort of a helper for God rather than the arch-enemy, and the concept of Satan definitely ballooned into something much larger after the OT, but he is there in the OT:

 

Job 1

[6] One day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and

Satan

also came with them.

[7] The LORD said to

Satan

, “Where have you come from?”

Satan

answered the LORD, “From roaming throughout the earth, going back and forth on it.”

[8] Then the LORD said to

Satan

, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.”

[9] “Does Job fear God for nothing?”

Satan

replied.

....

[12] The LORD said to

Satan

, “Very well, then, everything he has is in your power, but on the man himself do not lay a finger.” Then

Satan

went out from the presence of the LORD.

 

etc.

[LivingLife]

There is an interesting convo going on here that touches on this

 

http://www.city-data...teral-sons.html

[TheBluegrassSkeptic]

@ zomberina

 

"I find watching religious services fascinating. It is like being transported back to earlier ages that we can only READ about in mythology. I'm more appreciative thanks to the crap religious belief had put me through, and I guess on some levels, it did enhance my life more now."

 

I find it funny to drive by a church on Sunday now, the Frozen Chosen all waddling like ducks into the front door to see and be seen, pay their fee for using the church gym and going on those cool tax-deductible "mission" trips to exotic locales tithe and I always find it liberating to fly right by, on my way to have a MEANINGFUL, IN THE MOMENT EXPERIENCE with the ones I love most IN THIS WORLD.

 

"Fascinating", indeed.

 

Well stated.

It is. It's like watching ancient history in action! But that is as far as it goes for me. I'm glad I experienced the batshittery at hand, I just wish it hadn't been to the extent that I fucked up the first half of my life, and royally so I might add.

[TheBluegrassSkeptic]

another bad night last night. I feel like the microscope came out when I told her and now every move I make is being scrutinized to find "the link". Basically, I m not supposed to be nice, love, care. Im supposed to be different and I and keep getting all these exaggerated examples of changes in my behavior. Remember that this was never the case before I said anything. I dont blame her. We were taught in church that athiest are different. I am secretly trying to be more loving more caring since I know that the filter is turned on to catch all the BAD stuff and filter out the GOOD. Its pretty sad to watch her desperately try to link changes in my behavior to my disbelief. Changes that arent there. I explained time and time again taht I care about them MORE now since they arent some divine puppets that I was lended to play with while Im here on earth. She told me that Satan has crept in. I replied that I dont think Satan exists. This was earthshaking to her and led into tearful discussion. To doubt god is one thing but to doubt satan too. OMG!. I explained that when I discounted God as real, so did I discount everything that went with that belief, hell heaven, angels, demons, and yes even satan. Just when you start to think criticle thinking i ssetting in you get that. Its a parlor trick. If you start thinking freely then SATAN is working. This is crazy but Im hanging on.

Maybe you might point out to her that it is possible to push someone away into those types of behaviors she is looking for (not being nice, loving or caring) by simply forcing her ideas on you every breath and step you take. I wonder what her morbid fascination with Satan is? What is ANYONE'S morbid fascination with Satan about anyhow? Oh, that's right, it's the repressed id of the ego....

[mcdaddy]

Citsonga: those references where only attributed to Satan after the canonization of the NT. The concept of Satan came from Eastern/Western syncretism, during the Greco-Roman empire. It seems to have originated with the Hindus.

 

"Satan" is the Hebrew term used in the OT:

 

http://www.bluelette...ngs=H7854&t=KJV

 

In the OT, he is seen as sort of a helper for God rather than the arch-enemy, and the concept of Satan definitely ballooned into something much larger after the OT, but he is there in the OT:

 

Job 1

[6] One day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and

Satan

also came with them.

[7] The LORD said to

Satan

, “Where have you come from?”

Satan

answered the LORD, “From roaming throughout the earth, going back and forth on it.”

[8] Then the LORD said to

Satan

, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.”

[9] “Does Job fear God for nothing?”

Satan

replied.

....

[12] The LORD said to

Satan

, “Very well, then, everything he has is in your power, but on the man himself do not lay a finger.” Then

Satan

went out from the presence of the LORD.

 

etc.

 

Right. I don't think it's known for sure but I'd be willing to bet Job originated in Persia. There's no mention of Satan until the Babylonian exile.

[TrueFreedom]

I'm surprised that I had never seen the Hebrew "Satan" in Job. I'd always seen it translated as "adversary." Is that the only book in which that word is used? Job is supposedly the oldest book in the Bible.

[TheBluegrassSkeptic]

I'm surprised that I had never seen the Hebrew "Satan" in Job. I'd always seen it translated as "adversary." Is that the only book in which that word is used? Job is supposedly the oldest book in the Bible.

Here's a blog I'd wrote on this ages ago. He actually goes from being an adversary to a person. But not on the level you think..http://www.myspace.com/zomberina/blog/544352067

[FeelHappy]

I'm surprised that I had never seen the Hebrew "Satan" in Job. I'd always seen it translated as "adversary." Is that the only book in which that word is used? Job is supposedly the oldest book in the Bible.

 

Job takes place at the time of Patriarchs, but its likely not the oldest book in the bible. (Although I normally take later dates for the books of the old testament) Anyways according to the Wikipedia page (how ever much you trust this), 'Most scholars date Job between the 6th and 4th century BCE"

[TrueFreedom]

Great blog entry on the Satan, zomberina!

Here's what wiki.answers says about Job: "

Many scholars agree that Job is the oldest book in the Bible, written around 1500 B.C. Others hold that the Pentateuch (the first five books of the Bible) are the oldest books in the Bible, written between 1446 and 1406 B.C. "

[FeelHappy]

I don't want to derail this conversation to a topic about the book of job, but from what I've read many modern non evangelical scholars place a latter date than 1400 bce on the book of Job (and yes the earlier date is a traditional / popular evangelical position, but I put less weight in their opinion because they read the bible through spiritual blinders),. For example in multiple places Job mentions iron, such as an iron "pen" in Job 19:24, but the Iron age didn't happen until later (1200BCE - 550 BCE) so if they're using iron tools the date likely has to be later than 1446 you listed above, this is one of the reasons I remember off the top of my head of why a later date is used for the book of Job, I'd have to pull out some old Old Testament Introductions to get some of the other reasons. Perhaps that statement you quoted should read "most evangelical scholars agree", because I don't think that old date is the one held by the majority of historical/critical scholars, of course I could be wrong or have gotten my information from an incorrect / out of date book.

 

I think these dates are more accurate: http://en.wikipedia....ating_the_Bible

 

Don't get me wrong Job likely takes place before the time of Moses but that doesn't mean it was written then, but then again I view the bible as a mere book not something inspired in any way so that also biases my opinion and I'll freely admit that.

[mcdaddy]

It would make sense to be a late date (post exile) since thats when any concept of satan/adversary first started to appear. If it was early, that would confuse things.

 

Warning: potty mouth language.

 

[★ Citsonga ★]

I'm surprised that I had never seen the Hebrew "Satan" in Job. I'd always seen it translated as "adversary." Is that the only book in which that word is used? Job is supposedly the oldest book in the Bible.

 

The Hebrew term "satan" literally means "adversary," and it also is used in reference to people as adversaries. You can see this by going to Blue Letter Bible's entry for "satan" and looking down through the list of where it is used:

 

http://www.bluelette...ngs=H7854&t=KJV

 

So, basically, over time the concept of an adversary evolved into a powerful arch-enemy of God, with most of this evolution taking place after the OT. "Satan" as a pronoun is pretty scant in the OT (just in Job, Zechariah, 1 Chronicles, and in the KJV a reference in Psalms, which seems to be a misappropriation), which is inexcusable, considering that in Christianity he is supposedly our greatest threat and the Bible is supposedly God's message to us.

 

Also, I'm not confident in the traditional dating of Job. Someone has already mentioned the references to iron, but I would also point out that Satan is not mentioned anywhere in the other stories of the OT except for the one reference in 1 Chronicles regarding the census David had taken, and even that is a revamping of an earlier version of the story in 2 Samuel where it was God who instigated it. Also, Satan is only mentioned in one of the prophetic books, Zechariah. It seems that "Satan" as a character is a late development, and thus likely undermines the early dating of Job. After all, if Satan was such a prominent character early on, then wouldn't he be referenced all over the OT?

 

Here's a blog I'd wrote on this ages ago. He actually goes from being an adversary to a person. But not on the level you think..http://www.myspace.c.../blog/544352067

 

Interesting blog, and I mostly agree. However, I am a little skeptical of adding a scene that Job doesn't depict and then attributing to Satan the comments at the end that are specifically stated to be from God. Reading into the story what one wants to be there is typically a Christian approach, which is what they do when they claim that the "serpent" in Genesis and "Lucifer" in Isaiah are references to Satan.

[roadrunner]

Things did go much better this week. I have refused to read certain literature because i feel they are biased toward christianity. It like having a belief and then going out and finding evidence to support it. this premise means you have to neglect all evidence against your belief. I explained this to my wife and she seemed to understand but she still make comments like "as a christian you should......" im thinking "did she not get my letter or what" Shes dont this before. making comments to imply tat Im still a christian that is just struggling with doubt. However she chooses to deal with it is fine with me but i feel like she is at least more understanding of my premise. she is even wanting to change churches now because she see that ours is dead. i think it great because all church is dead. at that point i think we can at least agree together that all church is bs.

[SusanStoHeli]

I suspect to her, with how she's been taught all her life, "as a christian you should" is equal to "as a decent person you should" - no difference.

[roadrunner]

we havent gone to our church in a month and we are now visiting other churches. She agrees that the atmosphere was somewhat dead and thats probably why im having trouble seeing god work. Our visits to other churches where the spirit is is amazing. mass delusion at its finest. to see people jumping around yelling was hilarious and we both got a good laugh. it took me back to when i was a kid. our kids not knowing any better started jumping around too. I couldnt help but let them. LOL. I encourage each of you to straggle into a church (it works really well when you look like a sinner too. LOL) and just watch the show. Its completely differet to sit in the audience when you know its delusion. Things are also great. My wife is now at least somewhat interested in who wrote different books of the bible. My sister still has fingers in the ear. I told her about a book called "i dont have enough faith to be an atheist" she cut me off and said "who is he and what was the result" since when have she been concerned with who wrote any of the books of the bible. GEES.

 

PS still having trouble getting the family to let go of the "feel it" excuse. I know my wife well and i think she is starting to see that you can be good and not buy the talking animals. also im loving reading the bible objectively...ran across ezekiel 23:20

[Peace]

I'm glad you were both able to laugh about it. I wish I could but at this point I'm still super annoyed. In time I'm hoping the giggles comes.

 

I'm so glad to hear she is at least taking a few steps to test her own faith. Hoping that brings about good things for her and for your relationship!