Repenting After Death

[OrdinaryClay]

You are the one making a positive clam.

 

That was what you said to me regarding my claim that the reason dead people cant change their mind is that they no longer exist.

 

I cited four hundred thousand examples with no evidence they exist or think.

 

Care to comment?

 

 

You have an implied premise that dead people can communicate with the living. You need to justify your assumption they can before you can ask why they aren't.

 

Yes, you are still making a positive claim, which you obviously agree with since you switched to offering the evidence of the dead's silence for your positive claim.

Can pick up on this?

 

You have an implied premise that dead people can communicate with the living. You need to justify your assumption they can before you can ask why they aren't.

 

Is this not the claim we have for Jesus? Many xian folk claim (or so we are often told) they hear from dead relatives (in dreams mostly) and hear jesus speaking to them.

 

It is not right to swing the positive proof around as the xian doctrine suggests that there is this soul that survives after death. MM is not claiming the dead speak to the living, they don't. The problem is that this soul cannot be defined properly and really related to self and perhaps self awareness. Tests have been conducted to see if there is a soul that leaves the body upon death and they came out negative. I remember seeing a documentary back in the 60's where it was refuted albeit with primitive instruments, a bed on four scales/balances and the needles did not even shudder at the point of death of a terminally ill patient.

 

Now we have a plethora of NDE's and OOBE's which are not deaths as the brain was still alive. Tests were inconclusive and this phenomenon can be induced by brain stimulation.

 

No one has EVER come back from the dead (except some vague story of some remote unknown village in Africa or India where fact checking is impossible)

 

In a nutshell you folk believe these stories as you want it to be real.

 

 

Jesus is God so I don't understand your point about Him.

 

The Bible teaches necromancy is an abomination to God so any Christian who claims to speak to relatives is in error.

 

mymistake's claim is that our consciousness stops at death. As evidence to back his claim he said the dead were silent in all known instances. The implied premise was in support of his evidence not in support of his claim. He has not presented any support for his claim as of yet.

 

I'm not claiming the afterlife is a natural state. There is no evidence our spirit is something physical within our bodies. It is a supernatural phenomenon, and the afterlife is a supernatural state.

 

An NDE is an interesting case. Perhaps there is already a thread no this sight that has discussed it. I'll look later.

[bdp]

OC is clearly an idiot and I can't understand why any of you are humoring him.

[mcdaddy]

You are the one making a positive clam.

 

That was what you said to me regarding my claim that the reason dead people cant change their mind is that they no longer exist.

 

I cited four hundred thousand examples with no evidence they exist or think.

 

Care to comment?

 

 

You have an implied premise that dead people can communicate with the living. You need to justify your assumption they can before you can ask why they aren't.

 

Yes, you are still making a positive claim, which you obviously agree with since you switched to offering the evidence of the dead's silence for your positive claim.

Can pick up on this?

 

You have an implied premise that dead people can communicate with the living. You need to justify your assumption they can before you can ask why they aren't.

 

Is this not the claim we have for Jesus? Many xian folk claim (or so we are often told) they hear from dead relatives (in dreams mostly) and hear jesus speaking to them.

 

It is not right to swing the positive proof around as the xian doctrine suggests that there is this soul that survives after death. MM is not claiming the dead speak to the living, they don't. The problem is that this soul cannot be defined properly and really related to self and perhaps self awareness. Tests have been conducted to see if there is a soul that leaves the body upon death and they came out negative. I remember seeing a documentary back in the 60's where it was refuted albeit with primitive instruments, a bed on four scales/balances and the needles did not even shudder at the point of death of a terminally ill patient.

 

Now we have a plethora of NDE's and OOBE's which are not deaths as the brain was still alive. Tests were inconclusive and this phenomenon can be induced by brain stimulation.

 

No one has EVER come back from the dead (except some vague story of some remote unknown village in Africa or India where fact checking is impossible)

 

In a nutshell you folk believe these stories as you want it to be real.

 

 

 

 

The Bible teaches necromancy is an abomination to God so any Christian who claims to speak to relatives is in error.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Oh, this is dripping with irony.

[Deva]

Yeah. Just like Jeffrey Dahmer is waiting for you at the pearly gates now. Isn't that prospect exciting?

Yup. And Hitler, and the BTK killer (wasn't he active in a church when they arrested him?).

 

Yep. BTK was an upstanding member of the Lutheran Church. Even brought one of his victims into the church. Isn't that nice? As to Hitler, I'm not so sure. He was Catholic but just wasn't too into it.

[OrdinaryClay]

I find the evidence overwhelming and convincing. I believe without a shadow of a doubt there is an afterlife, satan is waring with God and the saints, hell exists, that the Creator of the universe is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and that Jesus of Nazareth is His Messiah. I have zero doubt about these facts.

What you believe doesn't explain "why". So why that way instead of another way?

 

You don't, now why do you suppose there is a difference between you and I.

So why does God want you not to know but just believe before death instead of knowing and then believing? Why? What's in it for him? What's the gain? Is he a dick-head?

 

 

satan believes and does not worship and love God so apparently belief if not enough.

 

Jas 2:19

You believe that there is one God, you do well; even the demons believe and tremble.

[Ouroboros]

Yep. BTK was an upstanding member of the Lutheran Church. Even brought one of his victims into the church. Isn't that nice? As to Hitler, I'm not so sure. He was Catholic but just wasn't too into it.

Well, no one knows what he did the last minutes of his life. He might have prayed the "sinner's prayer" at the last moment. Who knows. The key is, murderers and evil people can avoid Hell really easily, and good people can miss the chance because they never heard or just didn't see enough evidence to believe. It's just a very corrupt religious idea.

[Ouroboros]

satan believes and does not worship and love God so apparently belief if not enough.

So? Believe, repent, stand on one leg, flap your arms, wear a tuxedo backwards, roll your eyes, or juggle jugs of beer. Whatever.

 

Still, people can't repent (or whatever it is that is required to go to Heaven) after death and before judgment because God just said so. No reason. No explanation.

 

There's no reason to why God can't let people repent after death. You say the Bible says so, but you can't explain why God made it that way.

[Deva]

Yep. BTK was an upstanding member of the Lutheran Church. Even brought one of his victims into the church. Isn't that nice? As to Hitler, I'm not so sure. He was Catholic but just wasn't too into it.

Well, no one knows what he did the last minutes of his life. He might have prayed the "sinner's prayer" at the last moment. Who knows. The key is, murderers and evil people can avoid Hell really easily, and good people can miss the chance because they never heard or just didn't see enough evidence to believe. It's just a very corrupt religious idea.

 

 

Yes, of course. Sometimes I just still get so literal!

[mymistake]

Your claim is that our consciousness stops at death. This is a positive claim.

 

"stops" "not" "can't" "won't" "don't" "nothing" "doesn't"

 

Do these words strike you as positive? Maybe they are in Bizarro world. In the real world my anti-thesis, that conscious continues after death, would be the positive claim.

 

Now again (What is it five times I have asked or only four? I lost count.) Do you find four hundred thousand examples to be adequate evidence illustrating my point or do you require more evidence? If you require more then how many more? What level of evidence would it take for you to change your mind?

 

Again since my anti-thesis is positive it would only take one verified example beyond the medical technology of man to prove me wrong.

[mymistake]

satan believes and does not worship and love God so apparently belief if not enough.

 

Okay, how about providing us with some objective evidence that backs up your positive claim here?

[agnosticator]

I'm not claiming the afterlife is a natural state. There is no evidence our spirit is something physical within our bodies. It is a supernatural phenomenon, and the afterlife is a supernatural state.

 

"Super-" equals beyond the universe or the natural. "Phenomenon" is an observable event or fact. You have stated a contradiction. Where is evidence of "something" that is not natural, observable, and factual? The supernatural speaks to imaginings about nothing observable or even definable. I can substitute "supernatural" with "unknowable" or"nonexistent".

[mymistake]

mymistake's claim is that our consciousness stops at death. As evidence to back his claim he said the dead were silent in all known instances. The implied premise was in support of his evidence not in support of his claim. He has not presented any support for his claim as of yet.

 

Why would you lie like this? I cited every solder buried in Arlington National Cemetery. That is approximately 400,000. Can you not tell the difference between 400,000 and zero? It's amazing to me how many Christians think it is okay for them to bear false witness.

 

One more time. Is 400,000 examples enough evidence for you or do you need more? If you need more how many examples will it take?

[centauri]

Many skeptics are spreading TRIPE about God and the bible, believers should not be ashamed to defend false accusations. Posting on an internet forum in a place where debates are permitted is not forcing a belief on someone, my dear. I do like to bug you though, you talk to me but I can't force you to do so, right?

 

Telling people what they must believe, while attaching eternal consequences to it, is tripe and a form of intimidation.

This is especially the case when they will not back up their claims with anything more than empty preaching and boasting.

 

...Well it's not intimidating to warn others of impending danger. My church member listened to God, he did not stick his head in the sand hoping the situation will go away.

 

Yelling "fire!" in a crowded theater is considered an irresponsible act that "intimidates" people into a state of panic.

Your warnings of impending danger are not validated by anything other than the doctrines of a cult.

That cult can't even agree with itself on what teachings are true.

Nor can you establish that your version of God or your interpretations of an ancient set of cult writings have any consequence with regard to eternity.

 

You made me sign back in. If a Christian is to yell fire by the time unrepentant sinners get to the place of burning, it will be TOO LATE! God warns people before the fire ignites, ( He warns them before they die ) that way we can flame on and not be hurt by the second death.

 

You haven't established that a place of burning exists or that people are going there.

But none of that matters to you because you feel you can assert anything spiritual and it must be accepted as truth.

 

You better knock it off before you find out the hard way about that place of burning. If you give God's Word a chance --without all your preconceived notions-- then God will manifest Himself to you. I don't want you to be lost, I like ye for some odd reason.

Since you couldn't actually establish your threat as existing, you resort to more threats.

I'd better "knock it off" or your version of God will burn me.

I'm not surprised.

 

Creating fear is certainly one way to coerce people and Christianity uses it with abandon.

If a Muslim did that to you, I suspect you wouldn't find it noble or morally responsible.

In that case your morality is relative.

If a Muslim warns you of the wrath of Allah, you'd dismiss it as nonsense or worse.

However, when you do it to others, you're behaving morally.

 

As long as they don't force me to believe what they do then it won't bother me one bit. I once had a fellow Christian tell me that he worries about me for I'll be in the tribulation ( he wanted to proselytize me and I was looking forward to him trying). My thoughts were, pfft, he'll be right in it too if he's alive.

So it doesn't bother you that Muslims preach to you but it does bother you when skeptics question your doctrines in a ex-Christian forum.

Also, which specific Christian forums are you currently preaching in?

Since you accuse skeptics of spreading tripe about the Bible and God, how are you addressing the tripe that Muslims and false Christians spread?

You've already indicated that various Christian sects teach false beliefs.

Specifically, other than the Catholics, which sects are spreading tripe like the skeptics?

How about the Mormons, or Jehovah's Witnesses, etc?

You need to list these false sects in order for people to know which ones don't have God's approval.

[agnosticator]

mymistake's claim is that our consciousness stops at death. As evidence to back his claim he said the dead were silent in all known instances. The implied premise was in support of his evidence not in support of his claim. He has not presented any support for his claim as of yet.

 

Why would you lie like this? I cited every solder buried in Arlington National Cemetery. That is approximately 400,000. Can you not tell the difference between 400,000 and zero? It's amazing to me how many Christians think it is okay for them to bear false witness.

 

One more time. Is 400,000 examples enough evidence for you or do you need more? If you need more how many examples will it take?

 

If OC witnessed brain damage and the behavioral changes that result, it would not be enough evidence that consciousness (the "I" in our heads) arises from the brain. Dead bodies don't count either! Apparently, "I" was floating around invisibly before "I" was conceived. And "I" will float away when my brain dies. My conscious mind, even though it is a small part of the rest of my mind, somehow will function as floating conscious thoughts coming and existing from nowhere. Remember, that small conscious process is a thing by itself!

[centauri]

[it is written:

For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. Rom 9:15

 

God is good but He chooses to be even gooder!

 

For the skeptics -->

No, it is not favortism, God does things for His glory (He knows the end from the beginning) for He wants His children to love and trust Him.

Divine whim doesn't automatically equal good.

Doing things for your own glory and using others to achieve that goal by treating them unequally is favoritism.

Under this system the created beings are subservient and can be used or abused as the master sees fit.

Selecting and favoring one being over another before they are born is rank favoritism.

[centauri]

Repentance after death is NOT possible - the Bible says so.

 

Then Jesus was wasting his time preaching to disobedient people that died long ago and were being held in prison.

 

1 Peter 3:19-20

By which also he(Jesus) went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

 

The verse is not clear who the spirits were, and furthermore there is no reason to believe He was offering salvation.

If it isn't clear then nothing can be claimed about this verse one way or the other.

One interpretation is just as good as the next.

The original claim was absolute and insisted that repenting after death was NOT possible because the Bible says so.

The Bible indicates that it may very well be possible.

 

There is ample reason to believe he was offering salvation.

If he wasn't, there would be little point in preaching to them.

God allegedly wants all people to be saved and come to the knowledge of truth.

 

Noah preached to them for 120 years, they had a longer probationary period than us!

How long a probationary period did young children and fetuses have?

 

Genesis never actually says Noah preached to anyone, the New Testament makes that claim.

Also, the NLT BIble says that the normal lifespan would be no more than 120 years after the flood.

It does not say Noah preached for 120 years.

 

Gen 6:3 (NLT)

Then the Lord said, “My Spirit will not put up with humans for such a long time, for they are only mortal flesh. In the future, their normal lifespan will be no more than 120 years.”

 

Is this Christian Bible wrong?

[centauri]

Centauri:

Heb 9:27 states that people die once and then face judgment.

Lazarus died twice and did not face judgment the first time.

The saints in Matt 27 also died more than once.

 

The judgment Paul (whom you continually discriminate against) was talking about is the judgment where people would receive their rewards. This did not happen yet. Your aunty Meg is not in heaven looking down at you.

How do you know Paul wrote Hebrews?

Tradition, Vulcan mind meld, Holy Spirit beaming you thoughts, how?

It could have been Paul and displays some very Paul like statements but there is nothing in the text that identifies the author, who is unknown.

Whoever wrote it got it wrong, some people die more than once.

Have you ever considered the possibility that the author of Hebrews wasn't aware of the Lazarus story or the tale of the zombies in Matthew?

These tales only appear in their specific individual gospel accounts with no other confirmation.

[centauri]

Dead people that existed prior to Jesus would not know the gospel.

 

Are you deaf? The dead know not anything! They would have had to know BEFORE they died.

No, they would not.

That's the point of 1 Peter 3:19 and affirmed in 1 Peter 4:6.

By the way, 1 Peter 4:6 is cross referenced to 1 Peter 3:19, so if you think it's an error notify the editors.

 

Spirits of the dead could be preached to by Jesus, who descended to hell and proclaimed the good news to them.

According to the god-man himself in Luke 4, the good news wasn't preached until Jesus was sent and the prisoners were not to be freed until he arrived.

 

The gospel was presented as soon as Adam and Eve sinned:

And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. Gen 3:15

 

21Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them. Gen 3:21

 

^

Adam and Eve knew that God will take our place in the first death!

The text says nothing of the sort.

It says that God would put enmity between snakes and humans.

A talking serpent was cursed and in the future snakes and humans wouldn't get along very well.

It says nothing about the gospel of Jesus Christ.

[centauri]

satan believes and does not worship and love God so apparently belief if not enough.

 

Jas 2:19

You believe that there is one God, you do well; even the demons believe and tremble.

That's Christian mythology.

Please provide the verse(s) from the Hebrew scriptures that identify Satan as rebelling against God and being a demon rather than an angel that serves as man's accuser in God's court.

Also, the passages from Isa 14 or Ezek 28 are not validation.

They never mention Satan and are taunts to be applied to human kings.

[OrdinaryClay]

You say the Bible says so, but you can't explain why God made it that way.

 

So?

[OrdinaryClay]

I'm not claiming the afterlife is a natural state. There is no evidence our spirit is something physical within our bodies. It is a supernatural phenomenon, and the afterlife is a supernatural state.

 

"Super-" equals beyond the universe or the natural. "Phenomenon" is an observable event or fact. You have stated a contradiction. Where is evidence of "something" that is not natural, observable, and factual? The supernatural speaks to imaginings about nothing observable or even definable. I can substitute "supernatural" with "unknowable" or"nonexistent".

 

 

The Creation of the universe 13.7 bya is the most obvious supernatural event. Miracles are also supernatural events. No doubt the occult community has witnessed supernatural events.

 

I suspect your real problem is that you erroneously concluded that the only evidence is empirical evidence, which is clearly not the case for anyone willing to think deeply about the subject. The evidence suggests that supernatural phenomenon are observable but not repeatable (hence not subject to the empirical method), and natural phenomenon are both observable and repeatable.

[OrdinaryClay]

[it is written:

For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. Rom 9:15

 

God is good but He chooses to be even gooder!

 

For the skeptics -->

No, it is not favortism, God does things for His glory (He knows the end from the beginning) for He wants His children to love and trust Him.

Divine whim doesn't automatically equal good.

 

God is Good, His Goodness is not based on His choices. His Goodness is based on what He is.

[mymistake]

The Creation of the universe 13.7 bya is the most obvious supernatural event.

 

Objective evidence?

 

Miracles are also supernatural events.

 

Please verify one using objective evidence.

 

No doubt the occult community has witnessed supernatural events.

 

I doubt it very much.

 

I suspect your real problem is that you erroneously concluded that the only evidence is empirical evidence, which is clearly not the case for anyone willing to think deeply about the subject. The evidence suggests that supernatural phenomenon are observable but not repeatable (hence not subject to the empirical method), and natural phenomenon are both observable and repeatable.

 

So you having a hallucination is evidence? Dude you can't even tell the difference between positive and negative claims. You thought a claim that people don't exist after they die implies that these people who don't exist can communicate with the living. Maybe the problem is you.

[florduh]

The evidence suggests that supernatural phenomenon are observable...

No, evidence demonstrates that "supernatural" phenomena are products of a brain phenomenon. Wishful thinking suggests that certain hallucinatory episodes are real phenomena.

 

Electrical/magnetic stimulation, illness, stress, drugs, altered patterns due to rituals/meditation, oxygen deprivation all play a role in feelings/visions that can be interpreted as external events. Look up "God Helmet."

[Ouroboros]

You say the Bible says so, but you can't explain why God made it that way.

 

So?

Since Zoroastrianism can, it's superior. Your crappy book doesn't have any explanatory power even for your own belief.