Repenting After Death

[bornagainathiest]

Whatever you do for the poor, you do for Him.

 

 

Yes it is definitely good to do those things, however God does not call members to do exactly the same things.

 

 

Many Members Make up one Church Body

12For as the body is one, and has many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

13For by one Spirit were we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

14For the body is not one member, but many.

15If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

16And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

17If the whole body were an eye, where would be the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where would be the smelling?

18But now has God set the members every one of them in the body, as it has pleased him.

19And if they were all one member, where would be the body?

20But now are they many members, yet but one body.

21And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of you: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:

23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honorable, upon these we bestow more abundant honor; and our less respectable parts have greater respect.

24 For our more respectable parts have no need: but God has arranged the body together, having given more abundant honor to that part which lacked:

25That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.

26And whether one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honored, all the members rejoice with it.

27Now you are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

 

 

............................

 

 

I am glad I belong to Christianity and Christianity supports missionsaries. They feed the poor and provide medical and dental assistance. I am/was happy to learn that ministering to the poor is a science and that more experienced people are able to handle it so I don't have to be a Lone Ranger Christian trying to save the world all by myself in areas where I am unequipped to be productive. Eg.When people send clothes to random people all willy nilly it then affects the others who make a living by selling clothes or cloth or other sewing materials. The missionaries teach them to be self supportive so everyone receives benefit. I am happy to support them in areas where I am able to.

 

 

I am also happy to know the bible teaches that a person is not saved by works so I do not have to try to earn my way into heaven. I do not want to have a crisis like what Mother Teresa had:

 

 

"She compares the experience to hell and at one point says it has driven her to doubt the existence of heaven and even of God."

 

Read more: http://www.time.com/...l#ixzz1e09uhREn

 

Lord, my God, who am I that You should forsake me? The Child of your Love — and now become as the most hated one — the one — You have thrown away as unwanted — unloved. I call, I cling, I want — and there is no One to answer — no One on Whom I can cling — no, No One. — Alone ... Where is my Faith — even deep down right in there is nothing, but emptiness & darkness — My God — how painful is this unknown pain — I have no Faith — I dare not utter the words & thoughts that crowd in my heart — & make me suffer untold agony.

 

— addressed to Jesus, at the suggestion of a confessor, undated

 

 

Obviously Mother Teresa experienced unnecessary anguish because of her misunderstanding of God and she did not learn about entering into His rest. She would have been rejuvenated if she knew about resting in Him.

 

Sadly, Mother Teresa's belief system that taught her sanctification, justification and then glorification when the bible teaches justification, sanctification and then glorification. I hope she eventually did find peace with God.

 

I am pleased to be the apple of God's eye and to know that He loves me with an everlasting love inspite of my weaknesses. He has encouraged me so many times so I know that He is with me.

 

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Impressive Thumbelina!

 

An excuse, a slight and an unwitting declaration of intent on your part.

 

Your excuse gets you out of this?

Faith and Deeds

 

¹⁴ What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? ¹⁵ Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. ¹⁶ If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? ¹⁷ In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

¹⁸ But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. ¹⁹ You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

²⁰ You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless^[d]? ²¹ Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? ²² You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. ²³ And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”^[e] and he was called God’s friend. ²⁴ You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

 

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Your slight about Mother Teresa's misunderstanding of Christianity makes sad reading, but reading between the lines, in it I can see a disturbing insight into your intentions and your methods.

 

"Obviously she experienced unnecessary anguish..."

Which she could have avoided if only she'd believed EXACTLY what you believe, right?

If only she'd got the order right, eh? It has to be just the way you say it is. There's just no room for maneuver at all in your reality, is there? No possible freedom of choice or individuality. Total, absolute and unquestioning acceptance of what Thumbelina's says. Every dot and every line has to be EXACTLY what Thumbelina says it should be. The Bible is to be understood in EXACTLY the way Thumbelina says it is. Our understanding of God must be EXACTLY how Thumbelina says it is.

 

And you call us, Borg?

And you say that forced faith is false faith?

And you either can't or won't see what Centauri means when he says you want to dominate, crush and force yourself on us?

 

Oh the irony! It's almost too much to bear!

 

BAA.

[centauri]

I am also happy to know the bible teaches that a person is not saved by works so I do not have to try to earn my way into heaven.

But it does teach that works are needed to ensure salvation.

The Catholic position is fully backed up by scripture.

Matt 25:44-46 makes that quite clear.

Those that fail to perform at least some works of charity are damned.

Jesus never knew these people.

 

Even Paul slipped up and admitted that charity was of greater value than faith alone.

 

1 Cor 13:13

And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

 

James declared that faith without works is dead.

Dead faith doesn't save anyone.

 

Peter commanded that people repent and be baptized to ensure their salvation.

Both of these actions are works.

 

The Old Testament also commands works.

The whole duty of humans is to:

 

Eccl 13:12

Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

 

Keeping the law is a work on the part of the believer.

 

The only way you can be saved without doing any works is if you're predestined by God to have salvation.

In that case, your fate was already determined ahead of time.

You've already rejected predestination as valid, even though the BIble clearly teaches that as well.

[centauri]

[it is written:

For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. Rom 9:15

 

God is good but He chooses to be even gooder!

 

For the skeptics -->

No, it is not favortism, God does things for His glory (He knows the end from the beginning) for He wants His children to love and trust Him.

Divine whim doesn't automatically equal good.

 

God is Good, His Goodness is not based on His choices. His Goodness is based on what He is.

But aren't his choices supposed to be a reflection of what he is?

How is it good to flood the world, killing off his creation to get rid of evil, knowing ahead of time that his choice wouldn't work?

Evil wasn't eliminated and many innocent creatures suffered and died.

 

 

Yes, of course His choices reflect His Goodness.

 

Please quote scripture to support your claim for His reasons.

 

Gen 6:5-7

And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

 

His reason for the flood was to eliminate evil from the earth.

His solution didn't solve the problem.

Evil sprouted right back up again.

His action of making innocent creatures suffer and die was based on his "reasoning" that his solution would work.

However, being omniscient, he knew in advance that it wouldn't work.

He created flawed beings, knowing ahead of time what whould happen, then comes up with a solution that doesn't solve the problem, knowing all of this in advance.

[mymistake]

Gen 6:5-7

And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

 

His reason for the flood was to eliminate evil from the earth.

His solution didn't solve the problem.

Evil sprouted right back up again.

His action of making innocent creatures suffer and die was based on his "reasoning" that his solution would work.

However, being omniscient, he knew in advance that it wouldn't work.

He created flawed beings, knowing ahead of time what whould happen, then comes up with a solution that doesn't solve the problem, knowing all of this in advance.

 

This is a clear contradiction between two Bible authors. Some of them thought that God had made mistakes and felt regret, could repent, and could come up with plans that fail. Of course other Bible authors claim God is all knowing. These guys didn't know what they were talking about. They were just guessing.

[florduh]

When we discuss repenting after death, we diverge vigorously. After death or afterbirth? Even the Pope isn't sure, but Sure is a fine deodorant for sure. We come to a divide of cognition, that is, a separated pathway leading to, as the great philosophers say, the void. When voided, your check is no longer valid. Constantine addressed the issue in his early notes on Paganism versus the Christmas vacation. As we all know, it was an epic confrontation that to this day is unsettling. The Bible says one or more things regarding the subject matter, and many don't know which is the correct enunciation, or in concert with the flock. So is it one of the Biblical pronouncements or Common Sense? Well, Common Sense is a much later document, so we must divert from obfuscation in this matter, which is not to say that at a future date we may very well escalate and overcome.

 

I hope that clears things up for you.

[bornagainathiest]

Thanks Florduh!

 

Helpful words.

Now here's my 50 cents worth.

 

1 Peter 3:19

By which also he (Jesus) went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

 

A careful reading of the information displayed in the linked pages below will show that the activity Jesus carried out there (in the prison/guarding-place of the spirits) was that of preaching.

 

http://biblos.com/1_peter/3-19.htm

http://concordances.org/greek/2784.htm

http://concordances....trongs_2784.htm

 

There's not much point in him doing this if their ultimate fate was decided by them, before they died. His mission would be superfluous. Futile. A nonsense, even. He may as well have preached to a pile of stones or a bundle of firewood. His hope of offering them a choice (which is the express purpose of preaching) would have been dashed from get go. Preaching is specifically intended for the ears of conscious, free-willed humans. It is not for the ears of angels or demons, but only humans. Verse 20 gives the context of when these people lived and also tells us that they exercised their God-given free will during their mortal lives, choosing to be disobedient to God.

 

http://biblos.com/1_peter/3-20.htm

 

If that were the end of their story and their watery deaths were the final seal on their ultimate fate, then 1 Peter 3:19 is nothing but a bizarre description of the Son of God wasting his time on a hopeless mission. Therefore, a careful examination of the facts and some pertinent questions are needed to shed some light on this episode.

 

1.

Why do these dead spirits need to be confined in a prison at all?

If they are as inactive, insensible and unresponsive as the dead bodies they used to inhabit, then they don't need to be guarded or imprisoned, do they? Stored, perhaps but that's all. The fact that they are imprisoned and/or guarded implies that these spirits are 'active' in some sense of that word. Interestingly enough, this prison is neither Hell, nor Hades. The Greek word is PHULAKE, not HADES or TARTARUS or GEHENNA. See here... http://concordances....trongs_5438.htm

 

The fact that these particular spirits are NOT in Hades is very significant.

The Bible tells us that those in Hades are asleep and awaiting the Last Trumpet, which will sound on Judgement Day. These Hadean spirits are inactive. That's not in question. But these Phulakean spirits (mentioned in 1 Peter 3:19) appear to need imprisonment of some kind and that, in turn, implies that they are 'active'.

 

2.

What is Jesus doing, visiting this prison, for any reason at all?

If these Phulakean spirits were just the same as the Hadean ones, they'd be asleep awaiting resurrection on Judgement Day. So, Jesus has no more reason to visit them than he has to visit anyone sleeping in Hades. Therefore, there must be another reason for his visit. The answer lies in their 'active' state. Because they were active and not asleep, his visit to them now makes sense.

 

Rather than making a pointless effort to preach to the unresponsive, sleeping spirits of the Hadean dead, Jesus preached to the active and aware Phulakean spirits who could respond to him. Therefore, these spirits DID have a chance to repent after their physical deaths. They could make moral decisions and conscious choices.

If that wasn't so, Jesus' preaching was in vain.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

[centauri]

Gen 6:5-7

And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

 

His reason for the flood was to eliminate evil from the earth.

His solution didn't solve the problem.

Evil sprouted right back up again.

His action of making innocent creatures suffer and die was based on his "reasoning" that his solution would work.

However, being omniscient, he knew in advance that it wouldn't work.

He created flawed beings, knowing ahead of time what whould happen, then comes up with a solution that doesn't solve the problem, knowing all of this in advance.

 

This is a clear contradiction between two Bible authors. Some of them thought that God had made mistakes and felt regret, could repent, and could come up with plans that fail. Of course other Bible authors claim God is all knowing. These guys didn't know what they were talking about. They were just guessing.

The whole mess paints a picture of a God that engages in theater to amuse himself.

[agnosticator]

I'm not claiming the afterlife is a natural state. There is no evidence our spirit is something physical within our bodies. It is a supernatural phenomenon, and the afterlife is a supernatural state.

 

"Super-" equals beyond the universe or the natural. "Phenomenon" is an observable event or fact. You have stated a contradiction. Where is evidence of "something" that is not natural, observable, and factual? The supernatural speaks to imaginings about nothing observable or even definable. I can substitute "supernatural" with "unknowable" or"nonexistent".

 

 

The Creation of the universe 13.7 bya is the most obvious supernatural event.

 

No one knows or has a way to observe what happened prior to the birth of the universe. Since the "supernatural" resides beyond the natural, we have no way of observing it.

 

 

Miracles are also supernatural events. No doubt the occult community has witnessed supernatural events.

 

No shit!

 

 

I suspect your real problem is that you erroneously concluded that the only evidence is empirical evidence, which is clearly not the case for anyone willing to think deeply about the subject. The evidence suggests that supernatural phenomenon are observable but not repeatable (hence not subject to the empirical method), and natural phenomenon are both observable and repeatable.

 

If every human observes an event at the same moment, the phenomenon would be a natural event. It doesn't have to be repeatable. "Supernatural" is an oxymoron, since any imagining about the non-natural cannot be backed by evidence. If there were evidence, it would be a natural phenomenon. You are abusing the terms "natural" and "evidence". We can't observe anything outside the universe.

 

"Super-" opens up a Pandora's Box for religion. Religion is grounded within the human imagination, where any subjective belief can be justified. The super-natural cannot be verified, but religions all claim their version can be. So all religions are equally valid, since they are all about the "supernatural".

 

LivingLife said:

The area where memories are stored connects to this subconscious side of the brain and sometimes dreams embed themselves as a memory and as such appears real on the surface. After all what is reality perceived other than the processes of your brain and memories?

 

I've had hypnopompic/hypnagogic dreams that I thought were true events. They were so crazy that I thought they were supernatural events! So, I can verify LivingLife's assessment. BUT, it wasn't supernatural, it was in my mind.

[centauri]

1 Peter 3:19

By which also he (Jesus) went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

 

A careful reading of the information displayed in the linked pages below will show that the activity Jesus carried out there (in the prison/guarding-place of the spirits) was that of preaching.

 

http://biblos.com/1_peter/3-19.htm

http://concordances.org/greek/2784.htm

http://concordances....trongs_2784.htm

 

There's not much point in him doing this if their ultimate fate was decided by them, before they died. His mission would be superfluous. Futile. A nonsense, even. He may as well have preached to a pile of stones or a bundle of firewood. His hope of offering them a choice (which is the express purpose of preaching) would have been dashed from get go. Preaching is specifically intended for the ears of conscious, free-willed humans.

That's really the key point.

The trip only makes sense if it could result in an enlightenment or make possible the release of these spirits.

It was a step in preparing for the judgment, which was just around the corner.

1 Peter 4:7 states that the end of all things was near.

That prophecy was a flat out failure that gets ignored by apologists for obvious reasons.

[Guest end3]

The context of the story is that of Paul telling believers in the Corinth church that "saved" believers will still be judged on their works. It's not a reference to the unsaved, or non-Christian.

 

I Corinthians 3:15 also says some believers will "suffer loss" even though they are "saved." Christians will receive, in Heaven, a reward or a withholding of reward for their acts when they were alive. The point is that Christians, though safe from Hell, still have real incentive to still do good and refrain from sinful acts.

 

 

.

 

Well, you got one right.

[OrdinaryClay]

This fits the data.

What it fits is bullshit propaganda from a corrupt and greedy church empire.

 

The data is from far more than the roman catholic church.

[OrdinaryClay]

 

Oh and btw, that evidence for Many Universes will be observable, but not repeatable.

So will that make it supernatural?

 

BAA.

 

Please explain how the multiverse evidence (which does not exist at the moment) will be observable and not repeatable. I think you are confusing repeatable with falsifiable.

 

If and when they find the evidence for a multiverse reality it will have to be repeatable or no scientist will pay any attention. Empirical evidence must be repeatable. There is a lot of skepticism within the physics community that such evidence can be had.

[OrdinaryClay]

All you're doing is assuming your preferred conclusion.

You haven't established what truth is, you simply assume that your theological whims and things you were taught must be the truth.

Ex-Christians aren't that gullible.

It is not a strawman to request validation for doctrine.

 

"Prove all things, and hold fast to them"

 

Christians advertise the Holy Bible to be in perfect harmony to be self-proving, and claim that there are hundreds of "proof-texts" that confirm Christian teachings.

It should be a simple matter to validate a doctrine without using secial pleading about what truth is.

The evidence and proof is all supposed to be there, and be consistent.

The New Testament contradicts key precepts of the Hebrew scriptures in multiple areas.

It's revisionist theology that uses bits and pieces of the Hebrew scriptures to launch itself.

There is no arch enemy of God called Satan found anywhere in the Old Testament.

Satan evolved into the Devil in the Bible courtesy of the New Testament.

It has no basis in the Old Testament.

 

 

Perhaps you are assuming your preferred conclusion.

 

http://www.bing.com/...efinition+truth

 

It is a strawman that every truth in the New Testament must have a corresponding verse in the Old Testament. There is unique revelation in the Old Testament, and in the New Testament as well as overlapping and confirming scripture from the Old Testament to the New.

 

Luk 12:12 For the Holy Spirit shall teach you in the same hour what you ought to say.

 

You have not shown the Bible to be inconsistent or contradictory.

 

The satan of the Old Testament is most certainly the basis for a spiritual adversary. As I stated the New Testament simply builds on the information we have for satan through additional revelation, which is perfectly reasonable given that God's special revelation has been over many centuries.

[OrdinaryClay]

The constrained variation is unexplained. There are veridical cases as verified by third parties. An anoxic brain is less functional not more functional when it comes to forming complex sequences of memory.

I have no empirical proof other than my own observations with my own dreams and my hypothesis how it all hangs together, lemme explain.

 

All of my dreams that I can recall having (don't remember details of all of them) I always woke up immediately. When I was young (late teens early twenties) my dreams were extremely vivid and detailed. These would range from waking up to a dead arm, the sense of falling (what folk claim to be the "landing" of astral travel) and really detailed dreams in a mutiplicity of scenarios. Sadly sex dreams seem to elude me (damn) Every single one of these i awoke and remembered and some I can recall even to this day with detail as it was back them.

 

My hypothesis and also based on some studies I have done, suggests that the part responsible for dreams does not work like the cognitive areas of the mind. IOW it is not constrained to our sense of time. These dreams which appear to take minutes or even hours, in reality are a few microseconds to seconds long. Yet there is all this vivid imagery, solutions to problems you have been dwelling on etc. The area where memories are stored connects to this subconscious side of the brain and sometimes dreams embed themselves as a memory and as such appears real on the surface. After all what is reality perceived other than the processes of your brain and memories?

 

The key to triggering dreams is IMO all due to external stimuli like sounds, smells, touch.

 

If there is a crisis like a dead arm due to lack of blood circulation, you need to wake up and fix that. The brain uses whatever it can be it dreams or pain to waken you. You wake up, get pins and needles, turn over and go back to sleep (until you reach your 50's then you need to go pee too )

 

The astral travel dreams I had were mostly due to heat or fever as we stayed in a semi tropical climate, I would float down and wake up sweating. The sweating had been on awhile obviously as the bed was soaking wet. The body needed fluids to replenish and this was always the case with me, dry mouth, wet sheets (not in the good way )

 

Some times your dreams can make you fall out of bed. Other time you flail about with your arms and in my day woke to crying girlfriends asking why I had hit them.

 

These days my dreams are garbage and I never remember them.

 

Back to my youth. The brain only stops growing/developing at age 25 and as part of the learning experience you at that age are inundated with information from studies and all this is trying to be stored in the right pockets. As you age dreams become less vivid and less memorable. My proof is that we all dream and none of us can claim to remember them say a week later apart from a few exceptions.

 

At the point of transcending between sleep and consciousness, this window is where the dreams occur and most find no holding place in the memory banks. IMO this is the same for NDE's which we are told are very vivid and very detailed, it also happens in this window except it is at the point of resuscitation and not sleep but for all intents and purposes the same. It is all playing out like a movie with a shit script in your mind. When the brain reboots in NDE cases, there is a sudden surge in brain activity and these visions are caused by embedded memories. I could almost guarantee you if you just heard a John Haggee "hell is real" sermon that scared you shitless and you were traumatised shortly thereafter in an accident, you will likely have visions and dreams of hell when you come around.

 

Anyway, as I said I have no evidence but suspect this is pretty damn close to what actually happens.

 

Now rewind 3000 or so years, how would folk back then describe these dreams ranging from hormonal nocturnal emissions (wet dreams) to visions of conquest from the previous nights campfire stories? this was so real as it is today and it got a label soul or spirit.

 

Now how to prove this hypothesis (Please do not do this if you have a weak heart)

 

Lay on the floor, let a buddy straddle you, close you eyes and take five deep breaths exhaling fully each time. Hold the last big breath. You buddy then applies pressure to your chest in the CPR position and maintains pressure for 4 or more seconds.

 

You will pass out. (get someone to time the time from pressure being applied to being woken up) We used to wake each other up by light slaps after 2-5 seconds. You should dream in this period of passing out. Make a mental note of how long it appeared to be.

 

There is your proof of dreams and NDE's

 

Make sure someone in your group knows CPR in case something goes wrong.

 

Do not repeat on each other the same evening/day.

 

Have fun.

 

 

Thanks for posting your thoughts. They were worth reading. The problems with your ideas are the following:

1) Normal dreams are not part of a transition from one state to another.

2) The transitions that occur when NDEs are experienced are nothing like sleep transitions. Sleep is not the same as unconsciousness due to an anoxic brain. Not by a long shot, so it is hand waiving to assume the visions seen during NDEs are in any way equivalent to dreams.

3) Dreams are not triggered by external stimuli as you say. They are simply a normal part of sleep function. The content may be effected by external life events, agreed, but they are not stimulated to occur by external events.

 

I personally dream every night, I remember my dreams almost every night, and I often, very often, dream multiple times a night. I'm much older than young.

 

I have no plans to try your experiment, and I would advise others not to as well. I have gone unconscious due to lack of oxygen to the brain on several occasions and I never dreamed in any way. That is why they call it a "black out". The brain is hampered physiologically due to lack of oxygen.

[bdp]

I have gone unconscious due to lack of oxygen to the brain on several occasions

 

That explains a LOT.

[OrdinaryClay]

The witnessing of demonic manifestation and possession spans cultures and religions. It is universal across humanity. Of course it is not reproducible on demand, which makes sense given that the entities are free willed agents. The supernatural is observable but not subject to the empirical method. This fits the data.

Ever wondered why these demonic manifestations ONLY happen in church settings?

 

Ever wonder why it only seems to happen to folk believing in demons and angels and again in a church setting?

 

If you have watch this video to see how the mind is coerced into doing stuff contrary to your free will. It is really worth your watch. It is not staged BTW. About 8-9 minutes.

 

 

 

 

They don't happen just in church settings. They happen in many other places including while being scrutinized by people there to study the phenomenon. Look at the literature.

 

The demonstration in the video is not all that educational. We already know, at least sociologists do, that people 1) are emotionally impressionable, and 2) believe liars. There is no need to look beyond Hitlers Germany for that evidence. This human characteristic does not make God or the Bible false. That would be a complete non-sequitur to draw that conclusion.

[OrdinaryClay]

I am glad I belong to Christianity and Christianity supports missionsaries.

 

Amen!

[OrdinaryClay]

I am also happy to know the bible teaches that a person is not saved by works so I do not have to try to earn my way into heaven.

But it does teach that works are needed to ensure salvation.

The Catholic position is fully backed up by scripture.

Matt 25:44-46 makes that quite clear.

Those that fail to perform at least some works of charity are damned.

Jesus never knew these people.

 

Even Paul slipped up and admitted that charity was of greater value than faith alone.

 

1 Cor 13:13

And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

 

James declared that faith without works is dead.

Dead faith doesn't save anyone.

 

Peter commanded that people repent and be baptized to ensure their salvation.

Both of these actions are works.

 

The Old Testament also commands works.

The whole duty of humans is to:

 

Eccl 13:12

Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

 

Keeping the law is a work on the part of the believer.

 

The only way you can be saved without doing any works is if you're predestined by God to have salvation.

In that case, your fate was already determined ahead of time.

You've already rejected predestination as valid, even though the BIble clearly teaches that as well.

 

 

No, the New Testament teaches that a lack of works are a sign of hypocrisy. Salvation is through faith. If you love God you will act out His love through deeds.

 

Eph 2:8-9

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

 

1Sa 16:7

But the LORD said to Samuel, "Do not look at his appearance or at the height of his stature, because I have rejected him; for God sees not as man sees, for man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart."

[OrdinaryClay]

Yes, of course His choices reflect His Goodness.

 

Please quote scripture to support your claim for His reasons.

 

Gen 6:5-7

And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

 

His reason for the flood was to eliminate evil from the earth.

His solution didn't solve the problem.

Evil sprouted right back up again.

His action of making innocent creatures suffer and die was based on his "reasoning" that his solution would work.

However, being omniscient, he knew in advance that it wouldn't work.

He created flawed beings, knowing ahead of time what whould happen, then comes up with a solution that doesn't solve the problem, knowing all of this in advance.

 

 

This does not say the reason God acted was to eliminate evil. He was punishing the evil in the men of that day. Evil exists as when free willed creatures act against God's will. satan and his demons were not destroyed in the flood, so evil continued during and after the flood. Evil sprouts up when free willed agents sin.

 

1Co 2:11

For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God.

 

You as a created limited being can not know all God's reasons and all the facts therefore you can not pass judgement on God.

 

Isa 29:16

You turn things around! Shall the potter be considered as equal with the clay, That what is made would say to its maker, "He did not make me"; Or what is formed say to him who formed it, "He has no understanding"?

 

There are several theodicies that solve the problem of evil in modern theology.

[OrdinaryClay]

Thanks Florduh!

 

Helpful words.

Now here's my 50 cents worth.

 

1 Peter 3:19

By which also he (Jesus) went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

 

A careful reading of the information displayed in the linked pages below will show that the activity Jesus carried out there (in the prison/guarding-place of the spirits) was that of preaching.

 

 

 

Here I show that Jesus was not necessarily there to offer salvation. The word can simply mean proclaiming or publishing something. The verse does not have enough information for us to conclude why He was there, or what the place was other than a prison for spirits.

 

[OrdinaryClay]

No one knows or has a way to observe what happened prior to the birth of the universe. Since the "supernatural" resides beyond the natural, we have no way of observing it.

 

Empirically no, but we can deduce that the event is supernatural

 

If every human observes an event at the same moment, the phenomenon would be a natural event. It doesn't have to be repeatable.

 

Sorry this does not make sense. You are simply begging the question if you assume something observed is natural.

 

 

LivingLife said:

The area where memories are stored connects to this subconscious side of the brain and sometimes dreams embed themselves as a memory and as such appears real on the surface. After all what is reality perceived other than the processes of your brain and memories?

 

I've had hypnopompic/hypnagogic dreams that I thought were true events. They were so crazy that I thought they were supernatural events! So, I can verify LivingLife's assessment. BUT, it wasn't supernatural, it was in my mind.

 

 

Here a researcher explains that there are no known physiological causes that can produce long sequences of shared subjective experience, which is what the mental experiences are with sleep paralysis. Sleep paralysis occurs in every culture and through out history, with a remarkably constrained variation of experience.

 

 

Later in this same segment he states plainly that in his opinion the data indicates it is a supernatural event.

 

The whole 10 videos are worth listening to, but the segment I linked gets to the heart of the matter quickly if you don't have time to listen to all of them.

[OrdinaryClay]

1 Peter 4:7 states that the end of all things was near.

That prophecy was a flat out failure that gets ignored by apologists for obvious reasons.

 

 

This is not a failed prophecy. He makes no prediction as to when, and he does not even claim it as prophecy.

 

1Pe 4:7

The end of all things is near; therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer.

[LivingLife]

 

Thanks for posting your thoughts. They were worth reading. The problems with your ideas are the following:

1) Normal dreams are not part of a transition from one state to another.

They all occur in transition allowing memory recall. All dreams are normal, never implied otherwise. We kinda have a handle of what makes us dream and hint it is NOT in REM sleep. At that juncture you are on auto pilot and only the basic bodily functions are operating to keep you breathing. How do I know this? No memories are generated in the time frame of deep sleep.

2) The transitions that occur when NDEs are experienced are nothing like sleep transitions. Sleep is not the same as unconsciousness due to an anoxic brain. Not by a long shot, so it is hand waiving to assume the visions seen during NDEs are in any way equivalent to dreams.

Not identical but the experience is happening in a very much alive brain and thus is just like a dream.

3) Dreams are not triggered by external stimuli as you say. They are simply a normal part of sleep function. The content may be effected by external life events, agreed, but they are not stimulated to occur by external events.

No, I was not implying that only external stimuli trigger them, often it is say an alarm clock going off, you wake up and wish the damn thing did not go off, you were having an awesome dream, you remember that dream, or you are awakened by your mother or partner and that induces a dream too (most times)

I personally dream every night, I remember my dreams almost every night, and I often, very often, dream multiple times a night. I'm much older than young.

Tell the dream you had 3 weeks ago Monday. I bet you cannot. Drams do not find a permanent memory receptacle to contain the memory apart from exceptions as I described. I remember in detail dreams from my youth but obviously not all of them, I have explained why that happens.

I have no plans to try your experiment, and I would advise others not to as well. I have gone unconscious due to lack of oxygen to the brain on several occasions and I never dreamed in any way. That is why they call it a "black out". The brain is hampered physiologically due to lack of oxygen.

The experiment is not a lack of oxygen, hence the 5 (very)deep breaths, it probably over oxygenates the brain, we do not breathe like this normally unless you are exerting yourself in exercise like running. We did this as teens/twenty somethings and every single time, the person had a dream. I have done it to my kids and they report the same. I think the last time I did it I was in my early 30's

 

All these things occur in a living brain whether it is deprived of oxygen or not, it is not dead. The only reason we have NDE's is b/c science gave us CPR, shock paddles to start the heart adrenalin injections etc. W/o this, the victim would stay dead.

 

A comatose person has no dreams. When or if they awaken, they still have most of their memories if brain trauma and if due to something else like an illness, all of them.

 

If you waken in the middle of the night from a dream, at that point the memory is vivid, if you got up immediately, wrote down what you saw, it transfers to memory as the act of remembering is using the cognitive part of the brain. I have had these and said I will do it tomorrow, I remember that decision but my when tomorrow comes, the dream is gone.

 

The only way this can happen is doing sleep experiments with a observer to make you do stuff.

 

The brain is pretty awesome and pretty gullible too. This is why xian indoctrination as kids is so hard to let go of.

 

Another consideration is, one only gets self awareness at age 3-4 when we start to generate memories, a baby will goo goo gaa gaa, even say rote words, memories however do not occur in early life from birth or else we would all have total recall w/o exception. We don't so thus my assertions are true.

 

All of what I am sharing can be supported by scientific evidence, neurology and psychology are huge fields of study and I have only layman's knowledge. Feel free to explore and find out for yourself.

 

All the shit like god euphorias can be achieved by external stimulation likewise the NDE or OOBE experiences. In these experiments, the subject is fully awake.

 

This leads us onto this NDE and OOBE being "proof" of god and/or an afterlife. It is not.

 

It is inconceivable that such straws are grasped as "proof" when the god you supposed to believe in instapoofed™ all into existence yet has to communicate with us via warm fuzzy feel good moments or in altered states of consciousness leading to the thing called the anointing, goose bumps et al.

 

I am going to address the demons angle here too.

 

You said we should read the evidence. I stated these demon manifestations only happen in a church setting and gave you the vid which I am sure if you watched it, you could see the same tactics applied as in a church.

 

Demons are supposed to be shit scared of jesus right? It says so in the bible so it must be true.

 

Christians are supposed to be filled with the holy spook right? The holy spook being a part of the triune god is this according to all logic, a greater force than any others like demons who also apparently need to occupy a 3D animal and/or object. See the casting out of Legion and the pigs tale.

 

The xians are of the opinion we heathen are duped by the leader of this pack stan the man and as they are taught, xians believe we are likely possessed and for the smallest infraction of playing a glassy glassy game summoning these spirits and or demons.

 

Why then do we not see a manifestation of demons say at the local mall in the presence of one of these holy spook xians? I mean there are so many of you and so few of us, it stands to reason by mere statistic probability, this should be a daily occurrence. Remember Peter's shadow healed a leper, jesus said you would do greater things than he ever did, miracles would follow the believer et al. For someone having a profile pic of the bible, this should be a no brainer for you to know what texts I am talking about right?

 

Here are a few follow on questions.

 

1 How can anyone be demon possessed?

2 Why do we not see manifestations in real life settings both holy spook and demons?

3 Who is greater, god or satan and his minions?

 

If you have an excellent knowledge of your bible (I do BTW), answer in your own words, I do not give a flying fuck for walls of babble text. IOW use the brain god (apparently) gave you.

[mymistake]

The experiment is not a lack of oxygen, hence the 5 (very)deep breaths, it probably over oxygenates the brain, we do not breathe like this normally unless you are exerting yourself in exercise like running. We did this as teens/twenty somethings and every single time, the person had a dream. I have done it to my kids and they report the same. I think the last time I did it I was in my early 30's

 

The hypocrisy is too funny. Your experience doesn't count because it was subjective and science doesn't know of any blah blah blah blah.

 

But when Christians have subjective experience that proves the Bible/God is the one true truest truth. If science doesn't know they don't care.

[LivingLife]

The experiment is not a lack of oxygen, hence the 5 (very)deep breaths, it probably over oxygenates the brain, we do not breathe like this normally unless you are exerting yourself in exercise like running. We did this as teens/twenty somethings and every single time, the person had a dream. I have done it to my kids and they report the same. I think the last time I did it I was in my early 30's

 

The hypocrisy is too funny. Your experience doesn't count because it was subjective and science doesn't know of any blah blah blah blah.

 

But when Christians have subjective experience that proves the Bible/God is the one true truest truth. If science doesn't know they don't care.

Yeah, we all know that. My stuff is after years of observations as this intrigued me from 16 or so and I have had numerous discussions with many folk over the years. Not once did I hear of NDE's or OOBE's. Back then we were into the concept of astral travel - new agey even for the 70's.

 

The odd thing is when I did it to my kids, I never told them what would happen and they both had dreams. Not something we repeated often.

 

The experience is quite exhilarating as you get a sense of resting for a lot longer than 5 seconds.

 

The key here is the concept of time changes and can explain a lot of what we experience in these states of altered consciousness.

 

Another thing is like getting uber drunk and the sense of spinning if you lie down, foot on the ground and it stops for awhile till eventually the sensation forces your to have a conversation with the big white telephone. This passes and you develop a tolerance for alcohol as you get older. In my young days I knew my limit before the spinning would kick in. In my 40's I would simply nod off and go to sleep when I had too much to drink but the eyes and that double vision, well that seems to stay.

 

Weird shit we do to our bodies when we are young.

 

My early interest in this was due to much psychiatric exposure to find out why I was failing at school after being a star pupil. Turned out I had an over active thyroid and this messed with my mind and concentration and memory retention. Once on meds it came right and I graduated with an above average score. It flared up in college again and then I dropped out and had a partial removal (two thirds) and then enrolled the following year and passed with distinctions and at the top of my class. In my school years they did IQ tests and I scored way above average so that also confused the experts. Nowadays this disease or more aptly, a genetic abnormality it tested as part and parcel of trouble teens and treatment is relatively cheap.

 

Weird things happened in my life but I cannot pin point them exactly. I have no recall of my two last years at junior school apart from snippets of info. I have had three incidents of brain trauma and on FB I admin a junior school page and my classmates recall stuff I must have been a part of but no personal memories. Yet I have vivid memories from ages 6-10. Something must have gotten screwed up in my three accidents involving concussion. It could also have been the thyroid. The one thing all my class mates remember is the teacher in our final year. If someone did not have a pic, I would have no mental image and even then the image is a the pic not from memory of the senior year. Then they are amazed I can recall earlier stuff in great detail. Weird. Maybe something happened I don't want to remember.