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Goodbye Jesus

Repenting After Death


Xerces

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Centauri said: Every time this lie has been exposed you pull one of your vanishing acts and then return weeks later pretending that the posts never existed.

 

Thumbelina said: Well maybe you can tell me how to talk to likable people with didactic reasoning?

(skeptics do that A LOT! )

 

Centauri said: The queen of instructors and theological lectures complains about didactic skeptics!

 

Thumbelina: Hey, hey, hey, the bible has powerful words and repetition is for intensification.

So your goal is to bombard this forum over and over again with your theological whims and speculations, claiming that people need to be directed and instructed by you.

Thanks for clearing that up.

 

Thumbelina said: I reckon you're scared to look at the texts objectively, ya chicken, ya!!! (sorry Centauri, you know subtlety is not my forte and you know I luv you )

As I said, I know you are able to look at the texts and I think you can go back and forth in scriptures to eventually get the gospel but you SEEM scared to for some reason. I know you had bad experiences with Christianity before but dang dude, at least look at the texts objectively!

 

Centauri said: Translation:

I will impart to you my great wisdom and truth but only as long as you conform to my version of reality.

The word "objective" means whatever I say it means.

 

It reminds of me of Humpty Dumpty from Alice in Wonderland:

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less."

 

Thumbelina: Well look at you, being as sassy as can be I told you many times that the biblical teachings are not of private interpretations. They are not my subjective interpretations.

So now you claim that you embody absolute interpretations of biblical teachings.

Your opinions are not subjective, they represent absolute truth.

Unfortunately, you've done nothing to establish such a claim.

BAA has exposed this sham several times by posting Christian material that contradicts your interpretations.

All you can do is assert and make claims, hoping that people will somehow be intimidated enough to just shut up and allow you to dominate.

 

Centauri said: From past examples:

Show where a human is a valid sacrifice for sin under the law of God.

Show where the Hebrew scriptures define the new covenant as being based on the blood of a human sacrifice.

Show from the Hebrew scriptures where an expected king messiah would be the end of the law.

Show from the Hebrew scriptures where a king messiah would require a second coming thousands of years after his first visit, to accomplish his tasks and sit on the throne of David.

 

Thumbelina said: I wanted to show you (remember I started a thread to chat with you?) but the bible has MANY interlocking doctrines and you are not looking at the bible the way it stipulates that it should be looked at and that's why I don't bother sometimes and because I like you and you do raise good questions and I attempt to answer but then you start doing the robotic, 'I'm debukin' and not listenin' ' thing again.

 

Centauri said: This is a real gem of apologetics.

 

You proclaim the Bible to be in harmony and yet have to resort to the standard "you don't know how to read and understand it" excuse to cover up the glaring problems.

You're like a used car salesperson that when asked to see the odometer on a car they're trying to sell, declares that the customer needs to take special lessons from the salesperson on how to read it.

It doesn't say 100,000 miles, it really says 10,000 miles.

 

Thumbelina: Admit you were wrong about the 1 Peter 3 text, show that you don't just take doctrines from one set of believers in order to pit them against another set of believers' doctrines. You do not use sola scriptura, you rely on eisegeis in order to discredit the harmonious biblical teachings. How am I to reason with you when your fear seemingly makes you behave that way?

You rely on bombastic argument by assertion to promote your theology.

Show from the text of 1 Peter 3 that the spirits in prison were physically alive.

You're trying to equate living people as being the spirits in 1 Peter 3:19.

You need to establish that they never died from the text.

 

Nor have you disproved the Apostles' Creed.

You have no intention of reasoning, your goal is to dominate.

 

Centauri said: You're trying to equate living people as being the spirits in 1 Peter 3:19.

You need to establish that they never died from the text.

 

Thumbelina: I did, I did, I did!!!! You need to be WILLING to let Jesus put the spittle and clay in your eyes for you to see it! --> John 7:17

No, you didn't.

Cite the verses from Genesis that state the people who died at the time of the flood didn't physically die.

Cite the section of 1 Peter 3:19 that says they were physically alive and not disembodied spirits.

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Thumbelina said: The wicked (dead or still living) cannot repent after everyone is judged.

 

Centauri said: Now you're moving the goalpost by adding the qualifier "cannot repent after everyone is judged".

So apparently they can repent after they're dead but not after being judged.

 

Thumbelina said: Nah, just stating what the entire bible says on the subject.

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

^

After men die the next conscious thing they will know is when they are facing God in the judgment to see what they did in the body they had.

 

Centauri said: This still does not solve your problem and opens another can of worms for you to wallow in.

Jesus went and preached to spirits of the dead.

This was a useless and meaningless effort if these people could not repent.

Furthermore, Lazarus and others were resurrected from the dead, so they died more than once, which contradicts Heb 9:27.

Show from the text of John that Lazarus faced God for his judgment before he was awakened by Jesus to live again in his body.

 

Thumbelina said: I addressed what preaching to the dead means already.

 

Centauri said: All you did was define "dead" to mean whatever suits your needs.

 

Thumbelina: I am not the one doing that, you are!

The contradiction stands until you show from the text that Lazarus wasn't dead when Jesus raised him.

 

Thumbelina said: Yeah, Lazarus died (the first death) twice. There are two types of deaths in the bible. The first death is the death that ALL of us are subjected to. We all start to die as soon as we are born, we are in the process of dying. Lazarus experienced this twice.

 

Centauri said: Then the contradiction with Heb 9:27 stands.

 

Thumbelina: It's not a contradiction, you have misunderstanding of certain doctrines and it causes you to see the texts as contradictory.

The contradiction stands until you show from the text that Lazarus wasn't dead when Jesus raised him.

It has nothing to do with your claims about my "misunderstanding" the text.

 

It has everything to do with your inability to show that Lazarus wasn't really dead.

Show from the text that Lazarus was only in a coma rather than being dead.

 

Thumbelina said: Lazurus' name was written down in the book of life, he did nothing to have his name stricken off of that book.

God did not begin examining the books at that time. The lives of humans are recorded in books and the dead remain asleep in the graves until the resurrection.

 

Centauri said: Unless they are raised from the dead to live twice, which contradicts Heb 9:27 and your earlier claim about death.

 

Thumbelina: Nah, their info will still be recorded in heaven. Heb 9:27 is talking judgment language, you are being QUITE literalistic.

 

The tired, old, "it doesn't mean what it says" rationalization rears its subjective head.

 

Heb 9:27

And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

 

It really means this:

 

Heb 9:27

And as it is appointed unto men to be judged at some point, but not after they die the first time.

 

You mentally rewrite the Bible whenever it doesn't say what you want it to mean.

 

In the bible there were resurrections, Elijah raised up a boy and that boy would have died twice but the biblical writers knew that the first death means the physical death before one faces judgment, virtually everyone will face that death but the second death is ONLY for the wicked.

That doesn't solve your problem.

The New Testamant Book of Hebrews contradicts the Old Testament in many areas and this is just one of them.

It proclaims that Jesus was a high priest, when he could not hold such an office according to God's rules.

It also proclaims that without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness, which is false.

 

Centauri said: The harmony you declare is fake.

It's a fabrication and a sham.

Christianity revises and edits the Hebrew scriptures into a new theology.

 

I'll repeat this for the sake of lurkers.

Show where a human is a valid sacrifice for sin under the law of God.

Show where the Hebrew scriptures define the new covenant as being based on the blood of a human sacrifice.

Show from the Hebrew scriptures where an expected king messiah would be the end of the law.

Show from the Hebrew scriptures where a king messiah would require a second coming thousands of years after his first visit, to accomplish his tasks and sit on the throne of David.

 

Thumbelina: As I said before, I am willing to show you but you ain't listenin', just debunkin'. It's not a conversation/chat. I wish it was and can be.

You're not the first Christian preacher to decline addressing the points.

That tends to happen when apologists get themselves caught in a wringer.

 

A fellow believer describes what skeptics do::

 

"In all honesty - many on this site do claim to know the Bible. But in my conversations, I have come across sheer lack of knowledge of the Scriptures, lousy hermeneutics, shockingly superficial & wooden literalistic interpretations, failure to trace doctrines throughout the Bible, inability to understand context, failure to take into account genre, etc."

 

He said it so well and I agree, a person has to be WILLING to do those things in order to understand the gospel and you don't do that, darlin'. I really do think you are capable of it though.

If I remember correctly, that was the zealot Rayskidude you quoted.

He couldn't address the points either and resorted to running to the New Testament Book of Hebrews as his apologetic.

His shockingly superficial and shallow revisionist theology could only be supported by the shameless use of special pleading, which rendered his version of God to be little more than a cosmic joker.

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... show that you don't just take doctrines from one set of believers in order to pit them against another set of believers' doctrines.

You're the one that claims to have the Holy Spirit and insists it exists.

If believers can't agree on doctrines that's not my problem.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with exposing this glaring problem that Christianity has always had.

Believers are supposed to have the Holy Spirit guiding them to all truth.

Either the Holy Spirit is inept or believers are not to be trusted when they claim they're Christians.

It also exposes the prayer of Jesus in John 17 as a failure.

Jesus specifically prayed that all believers be in complete unity as a sign that he was sent by God.

That prayer failed and this failure renders Jesus a false representative of God, by his own definition.

 

You do not use sola scriptura, you rely on eisegeis in order to discredit the harmonious biblical teachings. How am I to reason with you when your fear seemingly makes you behave that way?

How am I to reason with you when your fear makes you discredit the Old Testament in an effort to prop up the revisionist theology put forth in the New Testament?

You rely on special pleading to undo the Old Testament and replace it with the New Testament.

 

What harmonious sola scriptura biblical teachings would those be?

The revisionist theology of the New Testament is not in harmony with the Hebrew scriptures.

 

As listed earlier:

Show from the Old Testament where a human is a valid sacrifice for sin under the law of God.

 

Show where the Hebrew scriptures define the new covenant as being based on the blood of a human sacrifice.

 

Show from the Hebrew scriptures where an expected king messiah would be the end of the law.

 

Show from the Hebrew scriptures where a king messiah would require a second coming thousands of years after his first visit, to accomplish his tasks and sit on the throne of David.

 

If the "harmony" is real then it should be no problem for you address these points as requested.

If the harmony isn't real, then you'll have to dodge them and claim them to be irrelevant, outdated, and superseded by a replacement system.

In doing so, you'll be guilty of discrediting the very scripture that you pretend to uphold and revere.

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1 Peter 3:13-22

 

Suffering for Doing Good

 

13And who is he that will harm you, if ye be followers of that which is good? 14But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled; 15But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: 16Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ. 17For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.

18 For Christ also hath ref. Rom 5:6 once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, ref. 2 Cor 13:4 being put to death ref Col 1:21 in the flesh, but ref Rom 1:4 quickened by the Spirit: 19By which also he went and ref 1 Pet 1:12 preached unto the spirits ref Isa 42:7 in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient, ref. Gen 6:3,5 when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while ref Heb 11:7 the ark was a preparing, ref Gen 7:7 wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: 22Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

 

ref = cross references

Many people are CONFUSED by a portion of the above passage. They think that 1 Peter 3: 18, 19 ( 18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; ) is saying that Jesus' disembodied Spirit went to hell and preached to spirits who are dead, disembodied people. This is not the case and contradicts scripture. People CANNOT repent after they are permanently dead, their fate is sealed! ( See Ecc 9:10; Isa 38:18; Ecc 9:5; Job 14:21; Acts 2:29-34 )

 

The word spirit has different meanings and the context determines what is meant by spirit.

 

Spirit (pneuma) also means a spiritual, deciding or caring aspect of a person and the bible sometimes refers to this as the person's "heart"; we sometimes call it our conscience.

 

 

Eg.:Matt. 26:41; cross ref. 7:21; 16:17; 1 Cor. 16:17, 18

 

Matthew 26:41 King James Version (KJV)

 

 

41Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

 

Wesley's Notes

Matthew 26:41 The spirit - Your spirit: ye yourselves. [your mind/heart]

The flesh - Your nature.

 

Emphasis mine.

 

Matthew 26:41 cf:

 

Matthew 7:21

 

21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

 

 

Matthew 16:17

 

17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

 

 

1 Corinthians 16:17 King James Version (KJV)

 

17I am glad of the coming of Stephanas and Fortunatus and Achaicus: for that which was lacking on your part they have supplied.

18For they have refreshed my spirit and yours: therefore acknowledge ye them that are such.

 

 

 

............

 

 

In that passage, 1 Peter 3: 18, 19, Christ (BEFORE He became incarnate ), through the Holy Spirit (Spirit is capitalized in vs 18 to indicate the HS) and also through Noah, preached to Noah's contemporaries. He pleaded with their spirit (heart). Before the flood Noah's disobedient contemporaries were in bondage because they REJECTED the message that was sent to release them from bondage. The bible says that when people are not abiding in God, they are in prison. Example: John 8:36; Hebrews 2:15; 2 Corinthians 3:17; Galatians 5:1

 

 

I was not saying that the antediluvians never died --the bible clearly stated that they did. I was saying that they were in bondage while they were living and they are going to be in bondage in death because they will face the second death. Peter was not saying that Jesus preached to disembodied spirits, he was saying that the people are NOW dead and those antediluvians were spiritually dead or in bondage when the gospel was preached to them for 120 years and they CONTINUE their imprisonment for they will die the second death. Peter also explains in1 Peter that the people who decided to let Jesus free them will gain eternal life.

 

 

 

 

 

AGAIN I say, one NEEDS to use the cross references ( I put some of then in, in the above passage) and compare scripture with scripture or spiritual with spiritual to comprehend the message. It is useless to ISOLATE texts and wrongly divide the word. The bible interprets itself, one has to see what the entire bible says on any given topic to form a doctrine. Centauri, it takes TIME to go through the texts but if you ditch watching Law and Order and other shows that fans your vivid imaginings of Christians coming to get you, then you can get through the texts wink.png ( I'm teasing, I don't know what you do but I believe you're s-c-a-r-e-d).

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The text says the HS via Noah, preached to disobedient, rebellious people. The text was saying that Jesus died that we might live and this good news ( that Jesus provided a way for them/us to escape death ) was told to the people in Noah's time.

 

Doesn't it bother you that the text keeps mentioning this time that never existed?

 

The bible predicted you'll say that wink.png

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Thumbelina wrote to Centauri...

Thumbelina: Admit you were wrong about the 1 Peter 3 text, show that you don't just take doctrines from one set of believers in order to pit them against another set of believers' doctrines. You do not use sola scriptura, you rely on eisegeis in order to discredit the harmonious biblical teachings. How am I to reason with you when your fear seemingly makes you behave that way?

 

BAA: Thumbelina, admit you were wrong about Revelation 1:13... if your pride will let you!

 

How is anyone supposed to reason with you when you refuse to admit your mistakes?

 

How is anyone supposed to reason with you when your pride makes you behave that way?

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AGAIN I say, one NEEDS to use the cross references ( I put some of then in, in the above passage) and compare scripture with scripture or spiritual with spiritual to comprehend the message. It is useless to ISOLATE texts and wrongly divide the word. The bible interprets itself, one has to see what the entire bible says on any given topic to form a doctrine. Centauri, it takes TIME to go through the texts but if you ditch watching Law and Order and other shows that fans your vivid imaginings of Christians coming to get you then you can get through the texts wink.png ( I'm teasing, I don't know what you do but I believe you're s-c-a-r-e-d).

 

Hilarious! The old favorite phrase "the Bible interprets itself" nestled within a paragraph of instruction on how to interpret the Bible!

 

Still, I look forward to the mud wrestling pics. Please post soon, T. As you pointed out, I don't have long to live.

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Centauri said: Every time this lie has been exposed you pull one of your vanishing acts and then return weeks later pretending that the posts never existed.

 

Thumbelina said: Well maybe you can tell me how to talk to likable people with didactic reasoning?

(skeptics do that A LOT! )

 

Centauri said: The queen of instructors and theological lectures complains about didactic skeptics!

 

Thumbelina: Hey, hey, hey, the bible has powerful words and repetition is for intensification.

 

 

So your goal is to bombard this forum over and over again with your theological whims and speculations, claiming that people need to be directed and instructed by you.

Thanks for clearing that up.

 

[

 

No, I was teasing you as usual. God's gospel doesn't change. They are ancient words that are ever true. You guys ask the SAME stuff over and over and don't listen to the answers and the answers don't change.

 

I gotta bug you now while I can cuz I might not be able to do it in the future. For some strange reason, I think I'll miss many of you lions.

 

The reason why we can't discuss some of the things you brought up YET is cuz of what I highlighted in red.

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Thumbelina, admit you were wrong about Revelation 1:13... if your pride will let you!

 

How is anyone supposed to reason with you when you refuse to admit your mistakes?

 

How is anyone supposed to reason with you when your pride makes you behave that way?

 

If I make a mistake I have no problem admitting it at all. I was not mistaken, that text is QUITE profound and one NEEDS to compare spiritual with spiritual to understand it. I dunno how to explain that texts to skeptics, there are sooooooo many interlocking doctrines involved.

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AGAIN I say, one NEEDS to use the cross references ( I put some of then in, in the above passage) and compare scripture with scripture or spiritual with spiritual to comprehend the message. It is useless to ISOLATE texts and wrongly divide the word. The bible interprets itself, one has to see what the entire bible says on any given topic to form a doctrine. Centauri, it takes TIME to go through the texts but if you ditch watching Law and Order and other shows that fans your vivid imaginings of Christians coming to get you then you can get through the texts wink.png ( I'm teasing, I don't know what you do but I believe you're s-c-a-r-e-d).

 

Hilarious! The old favorite phrase "the Bible interprets itself" nestled within a paragraph of instruction on how to interpret the Bible!

 

No, ... paragraph of instruction on how to use the bible to let the bible interpret the bible.

 

 

Still, I look forward to the mud wrestling pics. Please post soon, T. As you pointed out, I don't have long to live.

 

 

 

You are a very naughty hoary head but I shall continue sending up prayers for you ex Christians. Speaking of naughty, where's Par? I gotta check up on him.

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You are a very naughty hoary head...

You said "head."

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Thumbelina, admit you were wrong about Revelation 1:13... if your pride will let you!

 

How is anyone supposed to reason with you when you refuse to admit your mistakes?

 

How is anyone supposed to reason with you when your pride makes you behave that way?

 

If I make a mistake I have no problem admitting it at all. I was not mistaken, that text is QUITE profound and one NEEDS to compare spiritual with spiritual to understand it. I dunno how to explain that texts to skeptics, there are sooooooo many interlocking doctrines involved.

 

Well nows your chance to admit your errors, Thumbelina.

 

I've just 'bumped' the "Say What?" thread back up into view again. Now everyone can read where and how you messed up.

 

They can also see where I dismantle your faulty interpretation of scripture. They can see how you failed to understand what the Apostle John was plainly writing about. No amount of your, comparing-spiritual-with-spiritual crap changes what the NT Greek actually says. If you persist in saying the text is changed from what is actually there to a NEW meaning, on the say-so of the Holy Spook, then you've just written yourself a licence to make any change you want to the original meaning of the Bible.

 

So, please go ahead and justify yourself.

 

I dare you.

 

I double-dare you!

 

Show us all how you re-write scripture. Then we'll have the best reason of all to doubt everything and anything you write.

 

BAA.

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Centauri wrote...

So now you claim that you embody absolute interpretations of biblical teachings.

Your opinions are not subjective, they represent absolute truth.

Unfortunately, you've done nothing to establish such a claim.

BAA has exposed this sham several times by posting Christian material that contradicts your interpretations.

All you can do is assert and make claims, hoping that people will somehow be intimidated enough to just shut up and allow you to dominate.

 

He's quite right... but I've also gone one step further, Thumbelina.

 

Not only have I exposed you by comparing your claims to totally contradictory interpretations by other, "equally correct" Christians, I've also provided proof positive that your understanding of scripture is faulty.

 

Therefore, what you write (and no matter often and how strenuously you assert it) CANNOT be the absolute truth of God's word.

 

Therefore, what you write (and no matter often and how strenuously you assert it) CANNOT be guided by the Holy Spook.

 

Therefore, what you write (and o matter often and how strenuously you assert it) CANNOT be a correct division of scripture.

 

In you puffed-up pride you chose to put me right on Revelation 1:13, but you only succeeded in screwing up.

 

BAA.

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Seriously, T, I am very curious how you deal with this question:

 

What about other Christians who, as they claim to be led through Scripture by the Holy Spirit, come to a conclusion or interpretation that is at odds with your own?

 

Are they,

 

A. Not really Christians at all

 

B. Christian, but not led by the Spirit

 

C. Fooled by Satan

 

Since you claim the Bible interprets itself to any sincere believer, then it would follow that something is dreadfully wrong when two Christians don't agree with each other. At least one of them is not a True Believer, and of course each would claim it isn't they.

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Seriously, T, I am very curious how you deal with this question:

 

What about other Christians who, as they claim to be led through Scripture by the Holy Spirit, come to a conclusion or interpretation that is at odds with your own?

 

Are they,

 

A. Not really Christians at all

 

B. Christian, but not led by the Spirit

 

C. Fooled by Satan

 

Since you claim the Bible interprets itself to any sincere believer, then it would follow that something is dreadfully wrong when two Christians don't agree with each other. At least one of them is not a True Believer, and of course each would claim it isn't they.

 

I change my answer to C, [edit] Florduh. It is NOT up to me to judge/condemn a believer's walk with God. I look at the teachings to see if they match the bible.Truth is progressive to created beings and especially to us sinners and different people are at different stages in their conversion. They may have besetting sins that hinder their spiritual growth. God gives more grace to people who are willing to be obedient and some people are not there yet but God says He has sheep that are in other folds and He will eventually unite them.

God knew Christianity would have apostatized so He calls all His children to come out of false church systems.

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...people are at different stages in their conversion. They may have besetting sins that hinder their spiritual growth.

 

But that couldn't be YOU. It must be that those who don't understand things the same as you do are not quite as spiritually matured as you (and therefore not favored with the true interpretation).

 

Congratulations, then.

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...people are at different stages in their conversion. They may have besetting sins that hinder their spiritual growth.

 

But that couldn't be YOU. It must be that those who don't understand things the same as you do are not quite as spiritually matured as you (and therefore not favored with the true interpretation).

 

Congratulations, then.

 

I have sins that plague me, like being really timid. I should have been more advanced in my spiritual growth but I do see where God has been guiding me and revealing His truth to me. The bible says all things work together for good for those who love God, maybe my being timid is a way to show God's strength in my weakness.

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The text says the HS via Noah, preached to disobedient, rebellious people. The text was saying that Jesus died that we might live and this good news ( that Jesus provided a way for them/us to escape death ) was told to the people in Noah's time.

 

Doesn't it bother you that the text keeps mentioning this time that never existed?

 

The bible predicted you'll say that wink.png

 

I use to be a Christian. I often quoted 2 Peter 3:4. That the Bible points out that some people will say the Flood never happened does not establish that it did happen. You still did not answer my question. Doesn't it bother you that the Bible keeps mentioning a time that never existed?

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I have sins that plague me, like being really timid. I should have been more advanced in my spiritual growth but I do see where God has been guiding me and revealing His truth to me. The bible says all things work together for good for those who love God, maybe my being timid is a way to show God's strength in my weakness.

That's all fine, and even shows an attempt at humility. The point is, how do you know you are mature enough to be getting the right information? Couldn't you be incorrectly informed as compared to a more spiritually mature believer who, by your explanation, would have better insight?

 

In other words, you are here preaching what you claim to be the True Meaning of Scripture so you need to show some credentials that you know better than the other Christians who tell us something different.

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I have sins that plague me, like being really timid. I should have been more advanced in my spiritual growth but I do see where God has been guiding me and revealing His truth to me. The bible says all things work together for good for those who love God, maybe my being timid is a way to show God's strength in my weakness.

That's all fine, and even shows an attempt at humility. The point is, how do you know you are mature enough to be getting the right information? Couldn't you be incorrectly informed as compared to a more spiritually mature believer who, by your explanation, would have better insight?

 

In other words, you are here preaching what you claim to be the True Meaning of Scripture so you need to show some credentials that you know better than the other Christians who tell us something different.

 

The HS speaks to the believer and mainly through the Word. The HS would not instruct a believer to adopt doctrines that are contradictory to the Word. Therefore a person has to follow teachings that most closely follows the bible. Eg. A lot of Christians teach that God will mete out infinite punishments for FINITE crimes. That teaching contradicts a loving God, does is not? Those teachings come from paganism which infiltrated the Christian church in its infancy and they are NOT biblical so a believer who searches the scripture will avoid churches that teach such things.

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...you need to show some credentials that you know better than the other Christians who tell us something different.

I ask again.

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1 Peter 3:13-22

 

Suffering for Doing Good

 

13And who is he that will harm you, if ye be followers of that which is good? 14But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled; 15But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: 16Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ. 17For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.

18 For Christ also hath ref. Rom 5:6 once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, ref. 2 Cor 13:4 being put to death ref Col 1:21 in the flesh, but ref Rom 1:4 quickened by the Spirit: 19By which also he went and ref 1 Pet 1:12 preached unto the spirits ref Isa 42:7 in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient, ref. Gen 6:3,5 when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while ref Heb 11:7 the ark was a preparing, ref Gen 7:7 wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: 22Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

 

ref = cross references

Many people are CONFUSED by a portion of the above passage. They think that 1 Peter 3: 18, 19 ( 18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; ) is saying that Jesus' disembodied Spirit went to hell and preached to spirits who are dead, disembodied people. This is not the case and contradicts scripture.

It states that Jesus by the power of the spirit, went and preached to spirits held in prison.

The burden of proof is on you to establish beyond any doubt that Jesus never made such a trip or ever preached to disembodied spirits.

That's going to be difficult without denying what the text says, but I'm sure that won't stop you from denying it regardless.

You'll deny anything in the Bible if it doesn't suit your fancy.

That's been your consistent pattern.

You don't like this teaching, and as such, your personal whims will always trump scripture.

Unfortunately for you, your whims are not binding on anyone here.

You have no authority to define right and wrong interpretation.

You can only give your subjective opinions...oh but wait, you've already claimed that your teachings aren't subjective, they represent absolute truth as imparted to you by some celestial being called the "Holy Spirit" (which you've yet to prove as existing).

You fancy yourself to be an official mouthpiece for "God".

That's how deeply you've sunk into your own little fantasy world.

I'm thankful others have noticed this, and it was worth taking the time for you to expose yourself like that.

 

The doctrine does not contradict scripture and is affirmed by the Apostles' Creed, which states:

 

1. I believe in God the Father, Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth:

2. And in Jesus Christ, his only begotten Son, our Lord:

3. Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary:

4. Suffered under Pontius Pilate; was crucified, dead and buried: He descended into hell:

Variation:He descended to the dead)

5. The third day he rose again from the dead:....

 

The Athanasian Creed also affirms the descent of Jesus into hell.

 

...Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead;

 

That's two key Christian creeds you've contradicted.

 

The burden of proof is on you to establish beyond doubt that these elements of doctrine were not derived from 1 Peter 3:19, and are in fact false and deceptive teachings.

 

Furthermore, you haven't established that the Christians that promote this creed aren't guided by the Holy Spirit.

You haven't even established that you're a genuine Christian.

 

People CANNOT repent after they are permanently dead, their fate is sealed! ( See Ecc 9:10; Isa 38:18; Ecc 9:5; Job 14:21; Acts 2:29-34 )

So now it's become "permanently" dead rather than just physically dead.

That's a nice qualifier that you added.

Regardless, the spirits of the dead in 1 Peter 3:19 were preached to by Jesus.

If these souls couldn't be salvaged, then there was no victory to be proclaimed and no point in preaching to them.

 

Peter was not saying that Jesus preached to disembodied spirits, he was saying that the people are NOW dead and those antediluvians were spiritually dead or in bondage when the gospel was preached to them for 120 years and they CONTINUE their imprisonment for they will die the second death.

Jesus went and preached to spirits in prison.

 

1 Peter 3:19

By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

 

A specific trip was made to preach to dead people because the end of the world was at hand.

 

1 Peter 4:5-7

Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.

For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.

 

AGAIN I say, one NEEDS to use the cross references ( I put some of then in, in the above passage) and compare scripture with scripture or spiritual with spiritual to comprehend the message.

It is useless to ISOLATE texts and wrongly divide the word.

It's also useless to rewrite scripture to conform to your whims.

The Christians that adhere to the Apostles Creed and Athanasian Creed have no problem with the teaching that Jesus descended to "hell".

The burden of proof is once again on you to establish beyond doubt that they wrongly divide the word.

 

The bible interprets itself, one has to see what the entire bible says on any given topic to form a doctrine.

Obviously, the Bible does not interpret itself.

Christians cannot agree on even basic doctrines.

You haven't established that your subjective opinions are any more valid than those of the next Christian that comes here and teaches something different.

 

Centauri, it takes TIME to go through the texts but if you ditch watching Law and Order and other shows that fans your vivid imaginings of Christians coming to get you, then you can get through the texts ( I'm teasing, I don't know what you do but I believe you're s-c-a-r-e-d).

Ok, I'll play along with your little game.

Thumbelina, it takes time to go through the texts but if you take time to stop absorbing the rancid Jesus juice you've injected yourself with, you might yet recover your senses.

I believe you're so s-c-a-r-e-d to face the possibility of having been duped into believing a lie that you need to come here to assert your "authority" over others.

Rather than turn your ambitions (of control over others) to instructing fellow Christians who can't properly understand their Bibles, you come here to dominate and preach.

It's clearly marked as "ex-Christian" but that only inflames your inner anger all the more.

 

Oh by the way, it doesn't take a vivid imagination to discern the thirst for power and control that Christians display openly.

A prime example of this religious fanaticism and thirst for power can be seen in the following statements, which are attributed to the radical American Christian cleric D. James Kennedy, a leader of the Christian Dominionist lobby:

 

 

"Our job is to reclaim America for Christ,
whatever the cost…

As the
vice regents of God
, we are to exercise godly dominion and influence over our neighborhoods, our schools, our government, our literature and arts, our sports arenas, our entertainment media, our news media, our scientific endeavors -- in short,
over every aspect and institution of human society
."

 

(Sources: Rolling Stone online 4/7/2005, Christian Science Monitor 3/16/2005 regarding Coral Ridge Ministries Feb 2005 agenda rally)

 

This alone should give you pause before you make any other inane and clueless statements about my "imaginings".

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AGAIN I say, one NEEDS to use the cross references ( I put some of then in, in the above passage) and compare scripture with scripture or spiritual with spiritual to comprehend the message. It is useless to ISOLATE texts and wrongly divide the word. The bible interprets itself, one has to see what the entire bible says on any given topic to form a doctrine. Centauri, it takes TIME to go through the texts but if you ditch watching Law and Order and other shows that fans your vivid imaginings of Christians coming to get you then you can get through the texts wink.png ( I'm teasing, I don't know what you do but I believe you're s-c-a-r-e-d).

 

Hilarious! The old favorite phrase "the Bible interprets itself" nestled within a paragraph of instruction on how to interpret the Bible!

Great observation.

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AGAIN I say, one NEEDS to use the cross references ( I put some of then in, in the above passage) and compare scripture with scripture or spiritual with spiritual to comprehend the message. It is useless to ISOLATE texts and wrongly divide the word. The bible interprets itself, one has to see what the entire bible says on any given topic to form a doctrine. Centauri, it takes TIME to go through the texts but if you ditch watching Law and Order and other shows that fans your vivid imaginings of Christians coming to get you then you can get through the texts ( I'm teasing, I don't know what you do but I believe you're s-c-a-r-e-d).

 

Hilarious! The old favorite phrase "the Bible interprets itself" nestled within a paragraph of instruction on how to interpret the Bible!

 

Thumbelina:

No, ... paragraph of instruction on how to use the bible to let the bible interpret the bible.

The cross references were added by human clerics, not the Holy Spirit.

The interpretation is predicated on the human additions being valid.

That opens a can of worms because the cross references are often subjective interpretations by themselves.

Matt 1:23 (which attempts to create a prophecy fulfillment for Jesus) is cross referenced to Isa 7:14, which doesn't have anything to do with Jesus, having been fulfilled long before he was born.

The use of cross references is of little value when they are biased, spurious, and used to promote an agenda.

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