Repenting After Death

[Thumbelina]

 

Many skeptics are spreading TRIPE about God and the bible, believers should not be ashamed to defend false accusations. Posting on an internet forum in a place where debates are permitted is not forcing a belief on someone, my dear. I do like to bug you though, you talk to me but I can't force you to do so, right?

Telling people what they must believe, while attaching eternal consequences to it, is tripe and a form of intimidation.

This is especially the case when they will not back up their claims with anything more than empty preaching and boasting.

 

...Well it's not intimidating to warn others of impending danger. My church member listened to God, he did not stick his head in the sand hoping the situation will go away.

Yelling "fire!" in a crowded theater is considered an irresponsible act that "intimidates" people into a state of panic.

Your warnings of impending danger are not validated by anything other than the doctrines of a cult.

That cult can't even agree with itself on what teachings are true.

Nor can you establish that your version of God or your interpretations of an ancient set of cult writings have any consequence with regard to eternity.

 

You made me sign back in. If a Christian is to yell fire by the time unrepentant sinners get to the place of burning, it will be TOO LATE! God warns people before the fire ignites, ( He warns them before they die ) that way we can flame on and not be hurt by the second death.

[♦ ficino ♦]

I have a church member who was a window washer on the world trade center. He used to take his vacation in August every year for 15 years, I think. He would have resumed work in September. In 2001, God impressed his mind to start his vacation on September 11th and he did. His partner took his vaction in August as usual and perished while my church member did not.

 

As a proof of God, this is circular. You assume the thing you are trying to prove.

 

As an attempt to show the goodness of God, this is repugnant. I will not even give the reasons why, which should be self-evident.

[centauri]

 

Many skeptics are spreading TRIPE about God and the bible, believers should not be ashamed to defend false accusations. Posting on an internet forum in a place where debates are permitted is not forcing a belief on someone, my dear. I do like to bug you though, you talk to me but I can't force you to do so, right?

Telling people what they must believe, while attaching eternal consequences to it, is tripe and a form of intimidation.

This is especially the case when they will not back up their claims with anything more than empty preaching and boasting.

 

...Well it's not intimidating to warn others of impending danger. My church member listened to God, he did not stick his head in the sand hoping the situation will go away.

Yelling "fire!" in a crowded theater is considered an irresponsible act that "intimidates" people into a state of panic.

Your warnings of impending danger are not validated by anything other than the doctrines of a cult.

That cult can't even agree with itself on what teachings are true.

Nor can you establish that your version of God or your interpretations of an ancient set of cult writings have any consequence with regard to eternity.

 

You made me sign back in. If a Christian is to yell fire by the time unrepentant sinners get to the place of burning, it will be TOO LATE! God warns people before the fire ignites, ( He warns them before they die ) that way we can flame on and not be hurt by the second death.

You haven't established that a place of burning exists or that people are going there.

But none of that matters to you because you feel you can assert anything spiritual and it must be accepted as truth.

Creating fear is certainly one way to coerce people and Christianity uses it with abandon.

If a Muslim did that to you, I suspect you wouldn't find it noble or morally responsible.

In that case your morality is relative.

If a Muslim warns you of the wrath of Allah, you'd dismiss it as nonsense or worse.

However, when you do it to others, you're behaving morally.

[OrdinaryClay]

I think a lot of christians hold onto the idea that a person has to believe before the moment of death to actually achieve "salvation". But I'm not entirely sure where this comes from. Maybe they assume that a person instantly goes to one place or the other depending on how they lived. But, there is a bible verse that would contradict that:

 

"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad" (II Corinthians 5:10).

 

This would suggest that even after death a person would have an opportunity to accept or decline the offer of "salvation". Wouldn't it seem kind of ridiculous to let someone accept it on their death bed after going through their whole life not accpeting it, but denying people immediately after they die? And what about people who've never heard the "message"? Does the death rule apply to them? Why or why not? And if it did why would it not apply to everyone?

 

 

There is nothing in the verse that implies the person being judged can change their mind. In a court of law the person being judged can not undue what they have already done.

 

The opportunity to repent is before death.

 

Heb 9:27

And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,

[mymistake]

I think a lot of christians hold onto the idea that a person has to believe before the moment of death to actually achieve "salvation". But I'm not entirely sure where this comes from. Maybe they assume that a person instantly goes to one place or the other depending on how they lived. But, there is a bible verse that would contradict that:

 

"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad" (II Corinthians 5:10).

 

This would suggest that even after death a person would have an opportunity to accept or decline the offer of "salvation". Wouldn't it seem kind of ridiculous to let someone accept it on their death bed after going through their whole life not accpeting it, but denying people immediately after they die? And what about people who've never heard the "message"? Does the death rule apply to them? Why or why not? And if it did why would it not apply to everyone?

 

 

There is nothing in the verse that implies the person being judged can change their mind. In a court of law the person being judged can not undue what they have already done.

 

The opportunity to repent is before death.

 

Heb 9:27

And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,

 

Ah but changing your mind is a matter of opinion. What one has "already done" is action. Of course the real reason people can't change their mind after they die is they no longer exist.

[OrdinaryClay]

Repentance after death is NOT possible - the Bible says so.

 

Then Jesus was wasting his time preaching to disobedient people that died long ago and were being held in prison.

 

1 Peter 3:19-20

By which also he(Jesus) went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

 

The verse is not clear who the spirits were, and furthermore there is no reason to believe He was offering salvation.

 

[OrdinaryClay]

Ah but changing your mind is a matter of opinion. What one has "already done" is action. Of course the real reason people can't change their mind after they die is they no longer exist.

 

You are making a positive claim and should therefore offer evidence for your claim that consciousness ends with death.

[BrotherJosh]

You are making a positive claim and should therefore offer evidence for your claim that consciousness ends with death.

 

Define consciousness.

[OrdinaryClay]

You are making a positive claim and should therefore offer evidence for your claim that consciousness ends with death.

 

Define consciousness.

 

http://www.bing.com/search?q=Define+consciousness

[mymistake]

Ah but changing your mind is a matter of opinion. What one has "already done" is action. Of course the real reason people can't change their mind after they die is they no longer exist.

 

You are making a positive claim and should therefore offer evidence for your claim that consciousness ends with death.

 

 

Pick any graveyard you like and count the head stones.

 

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=safari&rls=en&biw=1575&bih=1064&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=arlingont+national+cemetary&oq=arlingont+national+cemetary&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_l=img.3...37188l43237l0l43556l27l27l0l16l0l0l68l586l11l11l0.llsin.

 

Here are around 400,000 examples and we have no evidence that any of them think anymore.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arlington_National_Cemetery

 

Would you care to try another graveyard? How many dead people with no evidence that they think would it take to properly support my claim?

[BrotherJosh]

http://www.bing.com/...e+consciousness

Bing isn't that great of a search engine. Try Google.

[mymistake]

http://www.bing.com/...e+consciousness

 

Bing isn't that great of a search engine. Try Google.

 

very funny!

[Xerces]

 

 

I'm done making threads like this, I have no interest in having discussions with "christians" anymore. You all have your heads so far up your asses that it's literally a waste of my time.

[florduh]

I have a church member who was a window washer on the world trade center. He used to take his vacation in August every year for 15 years, I think. He would have resumed work in September. In 2001, God impressed his mind to start his vacation on September 11th and he did. His partner took his vaction in August as usual and perished while my church member did not. Who knows if God spoke to others and they did not listen. He probably told them to get a right relationship with Him or to not go to work that day, who knows? Well it's not intimidation to warn others of impending danger. My church member listened to God, he did not stick his head in the sand hoping the situation will go awayor say boo hoo God is a bully.

There is so much wrong with that little musing of yours, and you'll never see it. I didn't realize until I read this post that you are indeed an idiot.

[bornagainathiest]

For what it's worth Florduh, I'd like to see Thumby wrasslin' or wallowin' in the mud too!

Then join me in my efforts to get her naked body covered in mud and writhing like a serpent!

 

At least then this thread might have some value. As it is, it's become just one more Christian who claims to have the right answers but can't show why she's right and the other Christians are wrong. Boring.

 

Oooooh! You naughty boy.

 

But you'd better drop the serpent angle. Our humorless, uptight little miss won't want to be compared in any way to, "that ancient serpent... who leads the whole world astray". Ole Luci, as she calls him.

 

Couldn't you just turn on the charm Florduh, like Ugly George used to? (**** me! I'm showing my age now.)

 

BAA.

 

 

BAA:

This obsession only demonstrates that Florduh's just not right.

 

Yes Deva.

Florduh's just not right... but he's allright by me!

 

BAA.

[buffettphan]

I'm done making threads like this, I have no interest in having discussions with "christians" anymore. You all have your heads so far up your asses that it's literally a waste of my time.

 

I'm with you. Every now and then I'll venture into the Lion's Den to see what's going on. After reading just a few "godly" posts, I feel like I need a shower to wash off the willful stupidity.

 

----------------------

ETA: But I'm glad others enjoy and/or take the time to reply to the christbots.

[OrdinaryClay]

http://www.bing.com/...e+consciousness

 

Bing isn't that great of a search engine. Try Google.

 

Google's api leaks information. Your link had 251 characters in it. Try bit.ly

[BrotherJosh]

Google's api leaks information. Your link had 251 characters in it. Try bit.ly

 

Oh my! We can't have that now. Thanks for your great answer on consciousness, Clay...

[OrdinaryClay]

Furthermore, Lazarus and others were resurrected from the dead, so they died more than once, which contradicts Heb 9:27.

Show from the text of John that Lazarus faced God for his judgment before he was awakened by Jesus to live again in his body.

 

Heb 9:27 is telling us about our limitations not God's. We can not choose when to repent. It is not at our will to make a choice after death. God is sovereign and can choose to do as He pleases. He chose to raise Lazarus from the dead. In 1Co 15:51 these Saints will also not experience physical death at His discretion.

 

 

1Co 15:51

Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,

[Ouroboros]

In Zoroastrianism, the belief is that you are judged within three days after you die by three individuals (one of the Mithra). And if your good deeds, words, and thoughts overweights the bad ones, you'll go to Heaven. Zoroastrianism is as old as Judaism, or perhaps older. They got this revelation from a prophet. He must've been from God since he got all these things right. Right?

[centauri]

Repentance after death is NOT possible - the Bible says so.

 

Then Jesus was wasting his time preaching to disobedient people that died long ago and were being held in prison.

 

1 Peter 3:19-20

By which also he(Jesus) went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

 

The verse is not clear who the spirits were, and furthermore there is no reason to believe He was offering salvation.

If it isn't clear then nothing can be claimed about this verse one way or the other.

One interpretation is just as good as the next.

The original claim was absolute and insisted that repenting after death was NOT possible because the Bible says so.

The Bible indicates that it may very well be possible.

 

There is ample reason to believe he was offering salvation.

If he wasn't, there would be little point in preaching to them.

God allegedly wants all people to be saved and come to the knowledge of truth.

[bornagainathiest]

Really, T. This gets old.

 

First, it is your responsibility to prove the Bible is indeed the correct holy book, and second, you must prove that your interpretation of that book (which you say interprets itself) is indeed the correct interpretation and superior to the claims made by other Christians. These things you will not do. You insist on merely repeating your spiel and claiming it's the Truth. If that isn't a waste of time, I don't know what is. You, Jim Jones, Benny Hinn, Jim Bakker, Ted Haggard, Muhammed, Roger Price, Deepak Chopra and L. Ron Hubbard all make the same claim and all offer no evidence or reason to believe. At least mud wrestling would be entertaining.

 

Yeah but y'all are not WILLING to go back and forth in scripture to allow the bible to prove itself. It takes a willing person to see God's Word, the bible says so. If the bible is supernaturally inspired ( I said if for you skeptics, I KNOW it is inspired ) then one needs to follow its instructions so one may get INSIGHT into its teachings.

 

Teachings + Insights = No action!

 

One ( enter your name here, Thumbelina ) needs to follow ( Jesus' ) instructions and LIVE Christianity, not read about it in a book.

 

Wake up Thumbelina!

Wake up now, before it really IS too late for you!

 

What's the point of squandering years of your ever-so-brief life looking for these teachings and insights, Thumbelina, if you don't act on what Jesus plainly and simply told you to do? You're a highly intelligent, well-read person with easy access to books, tapes, videos, libraries and the Internet. Yet, do you ever actually LIVE the Christian life of self-sacrifice and selfless giving to others?

 

Odd, isn't it?

There are millions of dirt-poor Christians in the world who can neither read nor write and have no access to any of the Christian-support infrastructure you seem to rely on. So, what are they doing? Are they LIVING for Jesus Christ or are they hiding behind the Bible's teachings, insights, chiasms, mysteries and oh-so-wonderful, deeper meanings?

 

True Christianity isn't LIVED by decades of self-serving Bible study, you know!

 

Just as John and Peter were illiterate, unlearned men who gave their LIVES to God, so these unlettered, uneducated Christians have got it 100% right, where you've got it 200% wrong.

 

They share the little food and drink they have with the starving and the thirsty.

They share their shanty-town homes with those whose only roof is the sky.

They work every hour God sends and give as much of the little they earn to the poor.

They care for the blind, the crippled, the deformed and the mentally handicapped.

They visit those in prison, without judging them for their crimes or their sinful lives.

 

Just as John and Peter would have done..

.

.

.

 

 

Here's some simple questions for you.

 

How many more years of Bible study will it take before you actually do something... anything, to serve others and not yourself?

 

If you really DO love Jesus, will you worship him with your LIFE as He asked you to or will your life be the proof that you loved a book, instead?

 

If God demanded your life tonight, wouldn't you regret wasting it, chasing after these precious Biblical insights instead of doing what He asks of you?

 

What will you say to God on Judgement Day, when you see Him blot your name out of the Book of Life?

 

Think about it.

 

BAA.

[bornagainathiest]

Yeah but y'all are not WILLING to go back and forth in scripture to allow the bible to prove itself.

Are you really this dense? What do you think we were doing as we went to Bible College, pastored a church, taught a class or translated original languages? Many of us here are quite familiar with the Bible you are so busily cherry picking. You bring nothing new at all.

 

 

Not being disrespectful but God favors I will more than IQ. The Pharisees were learned in the scripture and you know how that went.

 

 

If Christ was lifted up you all would NOT have left Him for the bible says faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. I have read a lot of debates on this site and many people were taught things that will repel them from God. Also, some were quite HONEST to say that although they went to bible college they still did not understand.

 

You all are NOT Borg, you are individuals so maybe I shall put a disclaimer of " Whomever hath an ear"; even fellow Christians might see something they never saw before. I know I learn from other Christians.

 

Exactly Thumbelina!

 

I will, not I.Q.

 

You have the IQ, but you will NOT live as Jesus wants you to.

You are learned in scripture, just like the Pharisees. Though you'll deny it, the same trap (excessive devotion to God's word) that snared them has you firmly in it's grip too.

 

If faith comes by hearing God's word and the listener chooses NOT to put that faith into action - that faith is dead!

 

BAA.

[centauri]

Furthermore, Lazarus and others were resurrected from the dead, so they died more than once, which contradicts Heb 9:27.

Show from the text of John that Lazarus faced God for his judgment before he was awakened by Jesus to live again in his body.

 

Heb 9:27 is telling us about our limitations not God's. We can not choose when to repent. It is not at our will to make a choice after death. God is sovereign and can choose to do as He pleases.

Then he failed to notify the author of Hebrews that some people die more than once.

 

He chose to raise Lazarus from the dead. In 1Co 15:51 these Saints will also not experience physical death at His discretion.

 

 

1Co 15:51

Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,

Heb 9:27 states that people die once and then face judgment.

Lazarus died twice and did not face judgment the first time.

The saints in Matt 27 also died more than once.

[bornagainathiest]

 

Dude, you are not paying attention to anything I write and you don't study the bible yourself, you just go from religious site to religious site to supposedly debunk the bible by pitting the teachings against each another. Why don't you go the the bible and God and you'll get insight, ya chicken

 

What would be the point of Centauri gaining any of these insights, if he then followed your life-example Thumbelina?

 

Isn't that what you do?

Ignore Jesus' obvious, plainly-written and crystal-clear commands to live like Him?

Keep on ignoring them in favor of the 'safe' (and selfish) alternative. Just start over and keep on seeking ever more deeply-hidden insights, fooling yourself into thinking that all this activity equals true spiritual growth?

 

Centauri is doing exactly the right thing by not paying attention to you or your selfish, self-centered, self-serving brand of "True Christianity". As should everyone else. Who'd want to live like you?

 

Now, why don't you leave your Bible where it is and go out and LIVE the Christian LIFE, ya chicken?

 

BAA.