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Goodbye Jesus

Repenting After Death


Xerces

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Yo, OrdinaryClay. I see you responded in this thread but did not comment on the approximately four hundred thousand examples I presented of dead people for whom we have no evidence that they continue to think. I was just wondering it you have a comment. Did you feel that four hundred thousand was enough examples? Would you like more? Do you still think I was the one making the positive claim since a single counter example (not brought back by human medical technology) would counter my position?

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You made me sign back in. If a Christian is to yell fire by the time unrepentant sinners get to the place of burning, it will be TOO LATE! God warns people before the fire ignites, ( He warns them before they die ) that way we can flame on and not be hurt by the second death.

 

How blind you are, Thumbelina!

 

Heed your own warning!

Change your life from Bible-centered to Christ-centered. He's out there, you know.

Every hungry mouth you feed is His. Every fevered brow you wipe is His. Whatever you do for the poor, you do for Him.

That's how you show Him your love.

 

So, what are you waiting for?

More insights and teachings and chiasms? Will you still be searching the scriptures this time, next year?

And in 2015?

 

2020?

 

2050?

 

BAA.

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Repentance after death is NOT possible - the Bible says so.

 

Then Jesus was wasting his time preaching to disobedient people that died long ago and were being held in prison.

 

1 Peter 3:19-20

By which also he(Jesus) went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

 

The verse is not clear who the spirits were, and furthermore there is no reason to believe He was offering salvation.

If it isn't clear then nothing can be claimed about this verse one way or the other.

One interpretation is just as good as the next.

The original claim was absolute and insisted that repenting after death was NOT possible because the Bible says so.

The Bible indicates that it may very well be possible.

 

There is ample reason to believe he was offering salvation.

If he wasn't, there would be little point in preaching to them.

God allegedly wants all people to be saved and come to the knowledge of truth.

 

 

What can be claimed, is what the verse says, that he proclaimed information to spirits. The difference is you are reading into the verse what you want to project and I'm not. Why He did this is not told to us in the verse. It simply said He did. You can speculate about "the point", but all it is is speculation. It is certainly not grounds for a doctrine of a second chance after death.

 

The original claim had nothing to do with this verse you introduced.

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Furthermore, Lazarus and others were resurrected from the dead, so they died more than once, which contradicts Heb 9:27.

Show from the text of John that Lazarus faced God for his judgment before he was awakened by Jesus to live again in his body.

 

Heb 9:27 is telling us about our limitations not God's. We can not choose when to repent. It is not at our will to make a choice after death. God is sovereign and can choose to do as He pleases. He chose to raise Lazarus from the dead. In 1Co 15:51 these Saints will also not experience physical death at His discretion.

 

 

1Co 15:51

Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,

 

Oh I get it now!

 

God can violate, bypass or undermine anything He likes, even His own rules and statutes and even the supposedly unchangeable and eternal ones that He brings into force Himself.

 

Why?

Because He's GOD - that's why!

 

Sorry Clay, but what you are presenting here is nothing but a form of Special Pleading.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_pleading

 

BAA.

 

 

p.s.

Btw, how's the ticker?

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Furthermore, Lazarus and others were resurrected from the dead, so they died more than once, which contradicts Heb 9:27.

Show from the text of John that Lazarus faced God for his judgment before he was awakened by Jesus to live again in his body.

 

Heb 9:27 is telling us about our limitations not God's. We can not choose when to repent. It is not at our will to make a choice after death. God is sovereign and can choose to do as He pleases.

Then he failed to notify the author of Hebrews that some people die more than once.

 

 

As we can see in other verses in the Bible a clearer picture is painted so there is no reason to believe the Hebrew author was not informed.

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Repentance after death is NOT possible - the Bible says so.

 

Then Jesus was wasting his time preaching to disobedient people that died long ago and were being held in prison.

 

1 Peter 3:19-20

By which also he(Jesus) went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

 

The verse is not clear who the spirits were, and furthermore there is no reason to believe He was offering salvation.

If it isn't clear then nothing can be claimed about this verse one way or the other.

One interpretation is just as good as the next.

The original claim was absolute and insisted that repenting after death was NOT possible because the Bible says so.

The Bible indicates that it may very well be possible.

 

There is ample reason to believe he was offering salvation.

If he wasn't, there would be little point in preaching to them.

God allegedly wants all people to be saved and come to the knowledge of truth.

What can be claimed, is what the verse says, that he proclaimed information to spirits. The difference is you are reading into the verse what you want to project and I'm not. Why He did this is not told to us in the verse. It simply said He did. You can speculate about "the point", but all it is is speculation. It is certainly not grounds for a doctrine of a second chance after death.

You're trying to deny it as grounds for a second chance after death by mere assertion.

You have yet to address the point of Jesus preaching to these spirits if not to proclaim good news to them.

God wants all people to be saved, and you ignored that aspect as well, denying that it has anything to do with the issue.

Furthermore, God is supposed to be just and fair.

Denying knowledge to some in favor of others violates this divine principle.

You're projecting your desires and ignoring that which doesn't fit your interpretation.

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Furthermore, Lazarus and others were resurrected from the dead, so they died more than once, which contradicts Heb 9:27.

Show from the text of John that Lazarus faced God for his judgment before he was awakened by Jesus to live again in his body.

 

Heb 9:27 is telling us about our limitations not God's. We can not choose when to repent. It is not at our will to make a choice after death. God is sovereign and can choose to do as He pleases.

Then he failed to notify the author of Hebrews that some people die more than once.

 

 

As we can see in other verses in the Bible a clearer picture is painted so there is no reason to believe the Hebrew author was not informed.

There is more than ample reason to believe the author of Hebrews was uninformed.

The author of Hebrews also contradicted the rules of the priesthood and contradicted the rules on forgiveness.

Contradicting God's Word is not evidence of divine inspiration.

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Sorry Clay, but what you are presenting here is nothing but a form of Special Pleading.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_pleading

 

BAA.

 

 

p.s.

Btw, how's the ticker?

 

 

It would be silly to think every exception is a special plead. In the real world exceptions do exist. In order for a fallacy to be claimed you must demonstrate the exception is indeed not true.

 

Ticking

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You're trying to deny it as grounds for a second chance after death by mere assertion.

You have yet to address the point of Jesus preaching to these spirits if not to proclaim good news to them.

God wants all people to be saved, and you ignored that aspect as well, denying that it has anything to do with the issue.

Furthermore, God is supposed to be just and fair.

Denying knowledge to some in favor of others violates this divine principle.

You're projecting your desires and ignoring that which doesn't fit your interpretation.

 

No, I'm reading the verse.

 

I don't need to. You are the one making a positive clam. I simply read the verse for what it says.

 

Wanting all to be saved is orthogonal to any conditions applied. He wants all to be saved, but conditions apply, as stated in the Bible.

 

He is.

 

Nothing said has denied anyone knowledge.

 

No, I'm reading the verse.

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You're trying to deny it as grounds for a second chance after death by mere assertion.

You have yet to address the point of Jesus preaching to these spirits if not to proclaim good news to them.

God wants all people to be saved, and you ignored that aspect as well, denying that it has anything to do with the issue.

Furthermore, God is supposed to be just and fair.

Denying knowledge to some in favor of others violates this divine principle.

You're projecting your desires and ignoring that which doesn't fit your interpretation.

 

No, I'm reading the verse.

No, you're projecting your desires.

 

I don't need to. You are the one making a positive clam. I simply read the verse for what it says.

You're the one supporting the the claim that there are no grounds for salvation after death.

You need to prove that Jesus didn't preach to dead people and that they couldn't be saved.

 

Wanting all to be saved is orthogonal to any conditions applied. He wants all to be saved, but conditions apply, as stated in the Bible.

And you've yet to prove that Jesus didn't preach to dead people.

And you haven't proved that he had no intention of giving them knowledge of salvation.

 

He is.

 

Nothing said has denied anyone knowledge.

 

No, I'm reading the verse.

Dead people that existed prior to Jesus would not know the gospel.

Prove from the text that a God that wants all people to be saved and come to knowledge of the truth would never impart the good news to spirits that were in prison.

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You are the one making a positive clam.

 

That was what you said to me regarding my claim that the reason dead people cant change their mind is that they no longer exist.

 

I cited four hundred thousand examples with no evidence they exist or think.

 

Care to comment?

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You are the one making a positive clam.

 

That was what you said to me regarding my claim that the reason dead people cant change their mind is that they no longer exist.

 

I cited four hundred thousand examples with no evidence they exist or think.

 

Care to comment?

 

 

You have an implied premise that dead people can communicate with the living. You need to justify your assumption they can before you can ask why they aren't.

 

Yes, you are still making a positive claim, which you obviously agree with since you switched to offering the evidence of the dead's silence for your positive claim.

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I have a church member who was a window washer on the world trade center. He used to take his vacation in August every year for 15 years, I think. He would have resumed work in September. In 2001, God impressed his mind to start his vacation on September 11th and he did. His partner took his vaction in August as usual and perished while my church member did not.

 

As a proof of God, this is circular. You assume the thing you are trying to prove.

 

 

 

It wasn't a proof of God, I was giving an analogy with someone's testimony. I should have told him that the person was psychic and knew that there would be a fire in the theater in advance so that a person will go there at their own peril.

 

 

 

As an attempt to show the goodness of God, this is repugnant. I will not even give the reasons why, which should be self-evident.

 

Why don't you put back on your Christian googles for a sec' and tell me why Christians are to not let their hearts be troubled and why Christians should not fear death if and when it comes at them?

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I have a church member who was a window washer on the world trade center. He used to take his vacation in August every year for 15 years, I think. He would have resumed work in September. In 2001, God impressed his mind to start his vacation on September 11th and he did. His partner took his vaction in August as usual and perished while my church member did not.

 

As a proof of God, this is circular. You assume the thing you are trying to prove.

 

 

 

It wasn't a proof of God, I was giving an analogy with someone's testimony. I should have told him that the person was psychic and knew that there would be a fire in the theater in advance so that a person will go there at their own peril.

 

 

 

As an attempt to show the goodness of God, this is repugnant. I will not even give the reasons why, which should be self-evident.

 

Why don't you put back on your Christian googles for a sec' and tell me why Christians are to not let their hearts be troubled and why Christians should not fear death if and when it comes at them?

 

There are many ways to free your heart from being troubled and to overcome fear of death. Thumbelina, I am much more free of feeling troubled now than I was as a Christian because I am not trying to salvage belief in an omnipotent God who carries out the haphazard kind of favoritism that your spin on the story suggests. If God is so compassionate why then allow so many to be fried in the towers? I too know people who lost their lives that day. It's much less troubling to believe that the universe is eternal, shit happens, we have a moral sense and it's imperfect, than to try to square belief in God's benevolence with belief in his omnipotence and foreknowledge, in light of evil that occurs.

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Why can't people repent after death? Does the Bible explain why God made it that way?

 

It seems like me that Bible-God is intentionally making it difficult to believe. Limited knowledge and evidence in this world, and yet we must believe here. While things would be obvious in the afterlife, why not let people repent then?

 

Honestly, the whole "you can't repent after death" and the "judged after death" comes from religions older than Christianity. Christians didn't invent it, and they can't explain why their God supposedly made it that way either.

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Many skeptics are spreading TRIPE about God and the bible, believers should not be ashamed to defend false accusations. Posting on an internet forum in a place where debates are permitted is not forcing a belief on someone, my dear. I do like to bug you though, you talk to me but I can't force you to do so, right?

Telling people what they must believe, while attaching eternal consequences to it, is tripe and a form of intimidation.

This is especially the case when they will not back up their claims with anything more than empty preaching and boasting.

 

...Well it's not intimidating to warn others of impending danger. My church member listened to God, he did not stick his head in the sand hoping the situation will go away.

Yelling "fire!" in a crowded theater is considered an irresponsible act that "intimidates" people into a state of panic.

Your warnings of impending danger are not validated by anything other than the doctrines of a cult.

That cult can't even agree with itself on what teachings are true.

Nor can you establish that your version of God or your interpretations of an ancient set of cult writings have any consequence with regard to eternity.

 

You made me sign back in. If a Christian is to yell fire by the time unrepentant sinners get to the place of burning, it will be TOO LATE! God warns people before the fire ignites, ( He warns them before they die ) that way we can flame on and not be hurt by the second death.

You haven't established that a place of burning exists or that people are going there.

But none of that matters to you because you feel you can assert anything spiritual and it must be accepted as truth.

 

 

You better knock it off before you find out the hard way about that place of burning. If you give God's Word a chance --without all your preconceived notions-- then God will manifest Himself to you. I don't want you to be lost, I like ye for some odd reason.

 

Creating fear is certainly one way to coerce people and Christianity uses it with abandon.

If a Muslim did that to you, I suspect you wouldn't find it noble or morally responsible.

In that case your morality is relative.

If a Muslim warns you of the wrath of Allah, you'd dismiss it as nonsense or worse.

However, when you do it to others, you're behaving morally.

 

 

As long as they don't force me to believe what they do then it won't bother me one bit. I once had a fellow Christian tell me that he worries about me for I'll be in the tribulation ( he wanted to proselytize me and I was looking forward to him trying). My thoughts were, pfft, he'll be right in it too if he's alive.

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I think a lot of christians hold onto the idea that a person has to believe before the moment of death to actually achieve "salvation". But I'm not entirely sure where this comes from. Maybe they assume that a person instantly goes to one place or the other depending on how they lived. But, there is a bible verse that would contradict that:

 

"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad" (II Corinthians 5:10).

 

This would suggest that even after death a person would have an opportunity to accept or decline the offer of "salvation". Wouldn't it seem kind of ridiculous to let someone accept it on their death bed after going through their whole life not accpeting it, but denying people immediately after they die? And what about people who've never heard the "message"? Does the death rule apply to them? Why or why not? And if it did why would it not apply to everyone?

 

 

There is nothing in the verse that implies the person being judged can change their mind. In a court of law the person being judged can not undo what they have already done.

 

The opportunity to repent is before death.

 

Heb 9:27

And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,

 

+1

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I have a church member who was a window washer on the world trade center. He used to take his vacation in August every year for 15 years, I think. He would have resumed work in September. In 2001, God impressed his mind to start his vacation on September 11th and he did. His partner took his vaction in August as usual and perished while my church member did not. Who knows if God spoke to others and they did not listen. He probably told them to get a right relationship with Him or to not go to work that day, who knows? Well it's not intimidation to warn others of impending danger. My church member listened to God, he did not stick his head in the sand hoping the situation will go awayor say boo hoo God is a bully.

There is so much wrong with that little musing of yours, and you'll never see it. I didn't realize until I read this post that you are indeed an idiot.

 

I'd be surprised if you did not say what you said.

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Furthermore, Lazarus and others were resurrected from the dead, so they died more than once, which contradicts Heb 9:27.

Show from the text of John that Lazarus faced God for his judgment before he was awakened by Jesus to live again in his body.

 

Heb 9:27 is telling us about our limitations not God's. We can not choose when to repent. It is not at our will to make a choice after death. God is sovereign and can choose to do as He pleases. He chose to raise Lazarus from the dead. In 1Co 15:51 these Saints will also not experience physical death at His discretion.

 

 

1Co 15:51

Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,

 

 

+1

It is written:

For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. Rom 9:15

 

God is good but He chooses to be even gooder!

 

For the skeptics -->

No, it is not favortism, God does things for His glory (He knows the end from the beginning) for He wants His children to love and trust Him.

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In Zoroastrianism, the belief is that you are judged within three days after you die by three individuals (one of the Mithra). And if your good deeds, words, and thoughts overweights the bad ones, you'll go to Heaven. Zoroastrianism is as old as Judaism, or perhaps older. They got this revelation from a prophet. He must've been from God since he got all these things right. Right?

 

It's Satan's lie of 'you shall not die.' He wants people to go to hell with him and he does not want people to repent before they die.

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The verse is not clear who the spirits were, and furthermore there is no reason to believe He was offering salvation.

 

YdGLG.png

Aah. So Jesus was just rubbing it in. He was just doing a huge version of "in your face, sinners!" Well, that's an awesome savior you got! He's the dickhead of the year. :3:

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Repentance after death is NOT possible - the Bible says so.

 

Then Jesus was wasting his time preaching to disobedient people that died long ago and were being held in prison.

 

1 Peter 3:19-20

By which also he(Jesus) went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

 

The verse is not clear who the spirits were, and furthermore there is no reason to believe He was offering salvation.

If it isn't clear then nothing can be claimed about this verse one way or the other.

One interpretation is just as good as the next.

The original claim was absolute and insisted that repenting after death was NOT possible because the Bible says so.

The Bible indicates that it may very well be possible.

 

There is ample reason to believe he was offering salvation.

If he wasn't, there would be little point in preaching to them.

God allegedly wants all people to be saved and come to the knowledge of truth.

 

 

Noah preached to them for 120 years, they had a longer probationary period than us!

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It is written:

For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. Rom 9:15

 

God is good but He chooses to be even gooder!

 

For the skeptics -->

No, it is not favortism, God does things for His glory (He knows the end from the beginning) for He wants His children to love and trust Him.

 

So thousands are killed in 9/11, and others decide not to go to work that day and live, and this whole thing glorifies God and entices people to love and trust him. Listen to yourself, T.

 

One of my "last straws" was when a friend at age 28 was discovered to have very advanced cancer, everyone prayed, including little children at a nearby school, but he died anyway. For years I would have said, God took Rod to himself, His ways are higher than our ways, etc. But this time it just snapped and I saw. I saw that a God who would reject the prayers of little children praying for someone else -- either is less good and just than I and those kids or doesn't exist. A point comes when you realize that "it's a mystery" really should be read as "it's a crock."

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Heb 9:27 is telling us about our limitations not God's. We can not choose when to repent.

So our repenting is in the control of God. Good to know. Then you can leave us be, and let us repent whenever God decides.

 

It is not at our will to make a choice after death. God is sovereign and can choose to do as He pleases.

Which means that God could have made it possible to repent after death when it would be more obvious that God exists for real. In this world, the evidence is scarce and crappy, and it's the foundation for the believe that will decide our eternal fate. But after death, when we really would know if God exists or not, then we can't repent. God is a dickhead-squared compared to Jesus.

 

He chose to raise Lazarus from the dead. In 1Co 15:51 these Saints will also not experience physical death at His discretion.

So Lazarus could repent after being resurrected and being dead. He's the lucky guy. He should have played Lotto with those odds. Why can't God kill all of us and the resurrect all of us and let us all repent, just like him? Why did he get that chance and no one else? It sucks. It shows your God's malicious intent and behavior, up front and center.

 

1Co 15:51

Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,

And so will Zoroastrians.

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In Zoroastrianism, the belief is that you are judged within three days after you die by three individuals (one of the Mithra). And if your good deeds, words, and thoughts overweights the bad ones, you'll go to Heaven. Zoroastrianism is as old as Judaism, or perhaps older. They got this revelation from a prophet. He must've been from God since he got all these things right. Right?

 

It's Satan's lie of 'you shall not die.' He wants people to go to hell with him and he does not want people to repent before they die.

I'm missing your point? Are you saying Zoroastrians are wrong because they believe the same thing as you?

 

The Zoroastrians can at least explain WHY you have to do it before you die. Christians can't. They just say "you must" without having any other explanation that "God says so." Zoroastrians have at least some reasonable arguments. It seems to me that you've lost your magical guidance counselor. :shrug:

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