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Goodbye Jesus

Asimov's Points to Ponder #1


Asimov

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Gene Cook feat. Paul Manata

 

I was listening to the Atheist Hour on Gene Cooks radio show where he interviews Atheists. Dan Barker was on that time and they interviewed him and questioned his deconversion process and his beliefs. I like Dan Barker, I really do, but I do not think he did very well in the Atheist Hour. I noticed that when confronted (and once Manata phoned in Dan started to become agitated with his abrasive nature) with some fairly good logic regarding one of Dan's reasons to dismiss Christianity, he kind of, well....failed.

 

Dan stated in his book (Losing Faith in Faith) that because Christians don't agree on everything calls into question the veracity of the Christian religion. Paul Manata offered up a good point in pointing out that people ALL over the globe disagree on everything from Logic to Faith, Science to Mathematics, and yet we still accept these things.

 

I was intrigued by what Paul said and have been thinking about it for a bit to see if there is a slight problem with what Paul was saying (aside from the way it was said). I came to the conclusion that it is because Christians claim absolute truth for their religion that disagreement within the Theology is a very good reason to deny the Christian religion.

 

P1. God is an absolute.

P2. If God is an absolute, then everything he dictates is an absolute truth.

P3. Absolute Truths are axiomatic by nature.

C1. There should be no question of the Word of God or what it says.

C2. There should be no dissent on the interpretation of the Word of God.

 

I think this is a proper syllogism to showcase exactly what I'm trying to get across. Regardless of what Paul Manata says about Logicians and their disagreements and scientists and their disagreements and even mathematicians and their disagreements, not one of them is claiming that these are absolute truths (for the most part anyways).

 

Of course the obvious statement would be that since humans can be wrong and have been known to be wrong that the blame solely falls on humanity and its tendancy to fuck up. Yet we could point to God's tendency to create things that fuck up and create them to fuck up. In conclusion, Paul Manata is a gigantic asshole that needs to be plugged.

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You're right Asimov. That was a very good argument you did. Besides, when we talk about things that are not agreed upon in mathematics, it's when we come to theories of "p vs np" problems and not if 1+1=2. While in Christianity groups, it fails to even agree upon "what you have to do to get to heaven". It would be like in mathematics, they couldn't agree if "a=b" then "b=a".

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You're right Asimov. That was a very good argument you did. Besides, when we talk about things that are not agreed upon in mathematics, it's when we come to theories of "p vs np" problems and not if 1+1=2. While in Christianity groups, it fails to even agree upon "what you have to do to get to heaven". It would be like in mathematics, they couldn't agree if "a=b" then "b=a".

106345[/snapback]

 

I remember reading something about how it is mathematically possible to prove that 1=3...I'm no mathematician but is this possible?

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You're right Asimov. That was a very good argument you did. Besides, when we talk about things that are not agreed upon in mathematics, it's when we come to theories of "p vs np" problems and not if 1+1=2. While in Christianity groups, it fails to even agree upon "what you have to do to get to heaven". It would be like in mathematics, they couldn't agree if "a=b" then "b=a".

106345[/snapback]

 

I remember reading something about how it is mathematically possible to prove that 1=3...I'm no mathematician but is this possible?

106349[/snapback]

Yes, I'm sure there is.

 

It's like my favorite:

 

a) 1/3 = 0.333...

 

b ) 3x1/3 = 1

 

c) 3x0.333... = 0.999...

 

Which leads to: 1=0.999...

 

The error is in representing 1/3 as 0.333... and then use the infinite number 0.333... in a multiplication.

 

3x0.333... is not =0.999... but =1, just because it's an infinte regression of multiplications. The sum of 3x3/n, where n approaches infinity, is 1.

 

You can play around with division with zero, or sets and you get into paradoxes etc. But it all is part of how we represents finited in correlation with infinites. My example was one. Division by zero is one. Set paradoxes are based on peculiar things with infinites. So it all comes to the conflict between finite and infinte.

 

Religion have the same problems. To symbolize God with the characteristics we have in our temporal and limited world. And try to give God infinite properties. Omniscience and omnipotence for instance. They always will create paradoxes just like math.

 

But in math there is at least a fundamental system that everyone agree upon. There are common axioms that even kids can understand. 1 apple + 1 apple is 2 apples. But when it comes to God. 1 God loves you, he loves you so much that he will send you to Hell if you don't believe in him. And the kids gets scared into believing, instead of questioning if that really is any true love.

 

It's sad that Christians take general, well understood concepts, and mold them and twist them to fit into explaining and excusing their religion. And people buy into it, without thinking how it really correlates to reality.

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It's sad that Christians take general, well understood concepts, and mold them and twist them to fit into explaining and excusing their religion. And people buy into it, without thinking how it really correlates to reality.

106365[/snapback]

 

It is sad and I was kind of hoping some Christian would jump into the fray and rebut what I said however I know that daniel (like Amanda) has no balls, the only difference being that Amanda is a girl.

 

I have to admit though, that Paul Manata never gave Dan a chance and chomped his ass in half, a problem that I have with interviews over the phone or live debates is that it doesn't allow Dan to really sort out his thoughts and defend what he's saying. I would probably have frozen up were Paul to ask me those questions. Paul, however, demonizes himself with his attitude.

 

I will be talking more about what I heard on Gene Cooks show in some other Points to Ponder.

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You're right Asimov. That was a very good argument you did. Besides, when we talk about things that are not agreed upon in mathematics, it's when we come to theories of "p vs np" problems and not if 1+1=2. While in Christianity groups, it fails to even agree upon "what you have to do to get to heaven". It would be like in mathematics, they couldn't agree if "a=b" then "b=a".

106345[/snapback]

 

I remember reading something about how it is mathematically possible to prove that 1=3...I'm no mathematician but is this possible?

106349[/snapback]

Yes, I'm sure there is.

 

It's like my favorite:

 

a) 1/3 = 0.333...

 

b ) 3x1/3 = 1

 

c) 3x0.333... = 0.999...

 

Which leads to: 1=0.999...

 

The error is in representing 1/3 as 0.333... and then use the infinite number 0.333... in a multiplication.

 

3x0.333... is not =0.999... but =1, just because it's an infinte regression of multiplications. The sum of 3x3/n, where n approaches infinity, is 1.

 

You can play around with division with zero, or sets and you get into paradoxes etc. But it all is part of how we represents finited in correlation with infinites. My example was one. Division by zero is one. Set paradoxes are based on peculiar things with infinites. So it all comes to the conflict between finite and infinte.

 

Religion have the same problems. To symbolize God with the characteristics we have in our temporal and limited world. And try to give God infinite properties. Omniscience and omnipotence for instance. They always will create paradoxes just like math.

 

But in math there is at least a fundamental system that everyone agree upon. There are common axioms that even kids can understand. 1 apple + 1 apple is 2 apples. But when it comes to God. 1 God loves you, he loves you so much that he will send you to Hell if you don't believe in him. And the kids gets scared into believing, instead of questioning if that really is any true love.

 

It's sad that Christians take general, well understood concepts, and mold them and twist them to fit into explaining and excusing their religion. And people buy into it, without thinking how it really correlates to reality.

106365[/snapback]

 

 

What makes it even more sad:

Not only did the original child not question whether or not it is true love, but he also grows up, has children of his own and tells them to believe the same(with or without doubts).

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