ApostateDave Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 This is an interesting argument that I came up with and I want you to see if you can rip it apart. I. Argument from imperfection If the universe was created by a perfect God, then the universe must be perfect. (Indeed, total perfection cannot yield imperfection). The universe is imperfect. Therefore, the unvierse was not created by a perfect God. Richard Carrier made an interesting argument in Why I am Not a Christian to defend point 3 http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/whynotchristian.html#universe namely, that Theism predicts an entirely different universe! Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Personally, I've never found this argument particularly convincing. Why does a perfect being's creations need to be perfect? Perhaps imperfections add spice to life. Perhaps a perfect being just wants to create an irrational piece of art. Perhaps it achieves perfection through trial. Perhaps imperfection amuses it. Are you sure YOU came up with this argument? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sirelien Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Well the standard Christian counterargument is that of free will - namely that a perfect God must allow his creations freedom, since it would be immoral for him to force anyone to worship him, and when you allow people freedom, the sad consequence is that some will use that freedom inappropriately. And that explains all the evil and suffering in the world. Of course, that argument is incredibly easy to rip to shreds. For a start, there is much evil and suffering that is not caused by human freedom for instance - just consider natural disasters, or diseases such as cholera, Alzheimers and cancer. Furthermore, why can God not give us freedom in the same way that, broadly speaking, every democratic society gives its citizens freedom. Why can God not allow people to live as they wish as long as their actions affect only themselves, but step in whenever they are about to something that would harm or otherwise impinge the freedom of another person - such as murder or rape for example? So this counterargument, in my view, simply doesn't work at all. However I would agree with Vigile that the strongest argument against it is that we are working with too little information. How do we know what a perfect being would create? What does it even mean to be a perfect being? So instead of focusing on 'perfect', which is a difficult term to define and work with, I would actually work with the term 'good.' If God is good, then he would not have created a world with volcanoes, earthquakes and tsunamis, that slaughter thousands each year. If God is good, he would not have created bacteria and viruses that cause terrible disease, pain and suffering. The fact that these things exist clearly demonstrate that God, if he exists at all, is either not good, or powerless to do anything about it. This is essentially a restating of the famous Epicurean Paradox, which has stood for over 2,000 years. During all that time, the religious have never been able to provide a good answer to it, and judging by their pathetic attempts, I doubt they ever will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted February 22, 2012 Super Moderator Share Posted February 22, 2012 What if what you see as imperfection is in reality perfection? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 If God is good, he would not have created bacteria and viruses that cause terrible disease, pain and suffering Agreed. In fact, I think the fact that parasites that spread disease, such as mosquitoes and malaria, exist is a slam dunk against a good god. OTH, it makes perfect sense in a survival of the fittest/natural selection paradigm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
London Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Since there is no real definition of "perfect god" it's hard to use that term as an arguement. Perhaps the phrase "inerrant god" would be better. A god without error. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 I have to chime in and say that the problem (IMO) is in the meaning of the word "perfect". What is a perfect God, world, pizza, rainbow, or movie? I'm not sure what perfect means in any absolute or objective way. I can think of things as perfect realting to me, personally, but that's only a subjective view. What Christians normally mean with "perfect world" is what scientists have dubbed "fine tuned universe." Since the universe is tuned in such a way that it only could have been a creator (there are flaws in that argument), then a creator it is. In other words, "perfect world" argument is just another "it looks designed" argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ ficino ♦ Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Well the standard Christian counterargument is that of free will - namely that a perfect God must allow his creations freedom, since it would be immoral for him to force anyone to worship him, and when you allow people freedom, the sad consequence is that some will use that freedom inappropriately. And that explains all the evil and suffering in the world. Of course, that argument is incredibly easy to rip to shreds. For a start, there is much evil and suffering that is not caused by human freedom for instance - just consider natural disasters, or diseases such as cholera, Alzheimers and cancer. Furthermore, why can God not give us freedom in the same way that, broadly speaking, every democratic society gives its citizens freedom. Why can God not allow people to live as they wish as long as their actions affect only themselves, but step in whenever they are about to something that would harm or otherwise impinge the freedom of another person - such as murder or rape for example? So this counterargument, in my view, simply doesn't work at all. I think another problem with the theist free will argument, at least for conservative Christians, is that after death, there is no more free will. The saints in heaven and sinners in hell cannot change their minds and go the other way. They are confirmed in their allegiance to or rebellion against God, right? So God is not getting freely willed worship from his saints and angels, since He has done something to confirm their saved status, and that something takes away their fully free choice. I guess Christians can spin this to say that each saint's/angel's will is in perfect conformity to God's, but then, why didn't God just set things up from the beginning so he'd get worship from creatures whose will was in perfect conformity to His? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 I think another problem with the theist free will argument, at least for conservative Christians, is that after death, there is no more free will. The saints in heaven and sinners in hell cannot change their minds and go the other way. They are confirmed in their allegiance to or rebellion against God, right? So God is not getting freely willed worship from his saints and angels, since He has done something to confirm their saved status, and that something takes away their fully free choice. I guess Christians can spin this to say that each saint's/angel's will is in perfect conformity to God's, but then, why didn't God just set things up from the beginning so he'd get worship from creatures whose will was in perfect conformity to His? So true. And yet, Satan had a free will when he rebelled against God by first tempting Adam and Eve and then later a bigger rebellion (that's the modern Christian assumption). Satan had free will in heaven. It was perfect. This world, humans have free will. That's perfect. Humans are either going to Heaven or Hell depending on their choice, and in Heaven there's no free will anymore... yet it's perfect still... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
owen652 Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Of course, that argument is incredibly easy to rip to shreds. For a start, there is much evil and suffering that is not caused by human freedom for instance - just consider natural disasters, or diseases such as cholera, Alzheimers and cancer. to play devil's God's advocate, that is also free will, although indirectly, because Adam and Eve used their free will to disobey God and thus bring sin and death into the hitherto perfect world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 This is an interesting argument that I came up with and I want you to see if you can rip it apart. I. Argument from imperfection If the universe was created by a perfect God, then the universe must be perfect. (Indeed, total perfection cannot yield imperfection). The universe is imperfect. Therefore, the unvierse was not created by a perfect God. Richard Carrier made an interesting argument in Why I am Not a Christian to defend point 3 http://www.infidels....n.html#universe namely, that Theism predicts an entirely different universe! Thoughts? 2. The universe IS perfect (from my wacky zen point of view), we just think something is wrong with it. :-) I have no clue about points 1 and 3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Of course, that argument is incredibly easy to rip to shreds. For a start, there is much evil and suffering that is not caused by human freedom for instance - just consider natural disasters, or diseases such as cholera, Alzheimers and cancer. to play devil's God's advocate, that is also free will, although indirectly, because Adam and Eve used their free will to disobey God and thus bring sin and death into the hitherto perfect world. Somehow it seems a wee bit improbable that a snake tempting Eve and Eve tempting Adam wrought mosquitoes, earthquakes, flesh eating bacteria, etc... I realize you're playing advocate, but this is one of the biggest non sequiturs xians engage in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 I have to chime in and say that the problem (IMO) is in the meaning of the word "perfect". What is a perfect God, world, pizza, rainbow, or movie? I'm not sure what perfect means in any absolute or objective way. I can think of things as perfect realting to me, personally, but that's only a subjective view. What Christians normally mean with "perfect world" is what scientists have dubbed "fine tuned universe." Since the universe is tuned in such a way that it only could have been a creator (there are flaws in that argument), then a creator it is. In other words, "perfect world" argument is just another "it looks designed" argument. Biblegod is the 'perfect' asshole? haha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBluegrassSkeptic Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 This is an interesting argument that I came up with and I want you to see if you can rip it apart. I. Argument from imperfection If the universe was created by a perfect God, then the universe must be perfect. (Indeed, total perfection cannot yield imperfection). The universe is imperfect. Therefore, the unvierse was not created by a perfect God. Richard Carrier made an interesting argument in Why I am Not a Christian to defend point 3 http://www.infidels....n.html#universe namely, that Theism predicts an entirely different universe! Thoughts? Well you have to define what perfection is is. You also have to define what imperfection is. Then you have to understand that our concept of perfection/imperfection cannot be perfectly defined. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 why didn't God just set things up from the beginning so he'd get worship from creatures whose will was in perfect conformity to His? My thoughts exactly. You know, in Hitler's wildest dreams he could only have hoped to be half as cruel as Bible god. As bad as Hitler was, he still has nothing on him. A world filled with pain, suffering, death and disease, all the while you have to worship this god and still most of the people that have existed, currently exist and will exist will be tourtured in hell for all eternity anyway. I tell you, if Hitler ever had a wet dream, this was it. Yet this is the god the christians praise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dyanaprajna0 Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 I've been using this argument for awhile now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts