owen652 Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 I am not an atheist... yet. I seem to swing wildly between agnostic and deist. Anyway, for those of you who identify as atheist and engage in the sort of proselytizing that I see a lot of (and I can understand why you do it), it occurred to me that you have an incredibly tough sell. Especially compared to Christianity. They have an awful lot of enticing benefits to offer prospective applicants: eternal life, mansions in heaven, a spiritual pal to guide you through life, a handy instruction manual to solve all moral/ethical dilemmas, etc etc etc. What do atheists offer to those they are preaching to? The black void of nothingness at death. Not exactly a selling point. Little wonder Christians are cleaning up. A thoughtful person can work through these things and discover meaning in their lives devoid of the god who previously provided it, but others will struggle with the loss and plunge into depression. This is no reason to avoid difficult questions, of course. But deconversion, as opposed to the joyful, rainbow-coloured explosion of spiritual discovery that is Christian conversion, is more like a stark, lonely place where you discover a brick wall that must broken through with your bare hands in order to move on with your life journey. It is like moving from childhood to adulthood - incredibly difficult and painful, but something we all must go through if we want to mature as human beings. No more jumping castles, no more lollies, no more fluffy bunnies. A hard sell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Ignorance is bliss, and truth hurts. You're right, it's not a good selling point. That's why I'm not proselytizing my unbelief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lunaticheathen Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Know what's not a hard sell? Not being a dick, and assuming you know what's good for other people's minds and souls. Evangelists are all scum, no matter what they're pushing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 I am not an atheist... yet. I seem to swing wildly between agnostic and deist. Anyway, for those of you who identify as atheist and engage in the sort of proselytizing that I see a lot of (and I can understand why you do it), it occurred to me that you have an incredibly tough sell. Especially compared to Christianity. They have an awful lot of enticing benefits to offer prospective applicants: eternal life, mansions in heaven, a spiritual pal to guide you through life, a handy instruction manual to solve all moral/ethical dilemmas, etc etc etc. What do atheists offer to those they are preaching to? Just the truth. A con man can offer all kinds of wild and enticing rewards because the con man doesn't deliver anything that is promised. Atheism is just accepting the truth. With that said I'm not going to evangelize my unbelief either, except to help out people who are very close to me or ask for my help. I don't consider the debates in the Lion's Den to be evangelism for atheism because if he existed the Christian God could send anybody to defend him. It's a debate. The black void of nothingness at death. Not exactly a selling point. Little wonder Christians are cleaning up. Actually I think Christianity is dying. It is getting harder to justify Christianity given what science has learned. Gay people can join the military now. Fundamentalists have to homeschool their kids to keep them in the faith. A thoughtful person can work through these things and discover meaning in their lives devoid of the god who previously provided it, but others will struggle with the loss and plunge into depression. This is no reason to avoid difficult questions, of course. But deconversion, as opposed to the joyful, rainbow-coloured explosion of spiritual discovery that is Christian conversion, is more like a stark, lonely place where you discover a brick wall that must broken through with your bare hands in order to move on with your life journey. It is like moving from childhood to adulthood - incredibly difficult and painful, but something we all must go through if we want to mature as human beings. No more jumping castles, no more lollies, no more fluffy bunnies. A hard sell. Yes. Well perhaps life sucks. Everyone is free to delude themselves any way they want as long as they don't hurt others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overcame Faith Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 It is not just a hard sell (if someone were trying to convince others to leave the religion behind). It is an even harder buy. Just read the Testimonies thread and you can see how difficult leaving the religion can be for some (many) people. Personally, I've about given up any thoughts of convincing people to leave the religion and one of the main reasons is that it is something that people must do on their own. Once they start questioning and seeking answers, that's a whole different matter where people who have been there and done that can be of immense help. Thus, ExC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
owen652 Posted February 22, 2012 Author Share Posted February 22, 2012 It is not just a hard sell (if someone were trying to convince others to leave the religion behind). It is an even harder buy. Just read the Testimonies thread and you can see how difficult leaving the religion can be for some (many) people. Personally, I've about given up any thoughts of convincing people to leave the religion and one of the main reasons is that it is something that people must do on their own. Once they start questioning and seeking answers, that's a whole different matter where people who have been there and done that can be of immense help. Thus, ExC. well said. yeah, reading the testimonies of ex-c's would not encourage christians to leave, that's for sure, I guess that's what i was getting at. my parents are christians and i don't think i would try to convince them otherwise simply because they are elderly and at this point in their lives that kind of emotional turmoil would be devastating and they might just be better off to live with their beliefs in blissful ignorance; at least they're happy (or seem to be, who knows what they're hiding). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
London Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 It is a hard sell. But I find that getting people to investigate it on their own, seek answers to the questions they have always had from many different sources, helps them sell it to themselves. And really "sell" is not the word. Realize the myth is more like it. Analyze the bible and you will be free from religion forever. That's the best use of that book ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Positivist Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 But deconversion, as opposed to the joyful, rainbow-coloured explosion of spiritual discovery that is Christian conversion, is more like a stark, lonely place where you discover a brick wall that must broken through with your bare hands in order to move on with your life journey. It is like moving from childhood to adulthood - incredibly difficult and painful, but something we all must go through if we want to mature as human beings. No more jumping castles, no more lollies, no more fluffy bunnies. I am an atheist and I have found it to not be a brick wall at all. Yes, it requires growth, but it is good! I am a recent de-convert (in the last couple of years--it's been a process) and when the goodness of atheism hit home was this: I was having a fine potluck with some of my newer atheist friends (selected as friends because I like them, not because of their unbelief). The food was amazing, the company was loving, and the talk was of ideas and life. We shared each others joys and sorrows. We laughed and shared great wine. Then we pulled out some musical instruments to jam a bit. The candles flickered, our cheeks were flushed, and I felt a new camaraderie with my fellow human, such as I have never felt before. Here we are, together, huddling around the fire of finding joy, tasting our humanity and sharing in it. I have never felt so human. It's amazing, rich and terrifying, all at once. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Its no good telling someone how they should live. Don't be what you were as a Christian - supposed to tell everyone your beliefs and persuade them... Change. Model your beliefs by your actions - assuming they are good actions. Don't hurt other people. Everyone has problems. Don't add to them. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Margee Posted February 23, 2012 Moderator Share Posted February 23, 2012 You have made some very good points in the OP. That's why I also do not go around 'selling' atheism. I don't want to ruin people's fantasies about heaven and such. I miss some of that myself!!! Atheism is the hard core sell of reality and most people don't want to know about it. Very true fact...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marmot Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Actually I think Christianity is dying. It is getting harder to justify Christianity given what science has learned. Gay people can join the military now. Fundamentalists have to homeschool their kids to keep them in the faith. I really hope this is the case. I have a lot of faith in education and science as a way of secularizing our nation. I know that a much higher percent of young people are atheists/agnostics than just 20 years ago...I am hoping this is not a cyclical trend but a secular, progressive trend (in the true meaning of those words). I am sure there will always be entrenched crazies but I hope agnosticism becomes the norm in the next 20-30 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Positivist Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 I've changed my mind. You're right. Atheism is a hard sell. Why trade the soother or placebo of delusion belief in magical unicorns God for the naked truth? I think we also need to stop defining ourselves by what we aren't (theists) and what we don't have (delusions that all will be well in the end because an all knowing supernatural being is looking out for us). Great. Now I'm depressed. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Great. Now I'm depressed. Don't be. I +1 your post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flockoff Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 We have cooler celebrities … As a believer or nonbeliever, I honestly never saw atheism in itself as dismal. Why would no hell, no brooding judge of your soul, no invisible enemies clawing at you to control your behavior … depress you? An indifferent universe letting me be is more to my liking than all my joys and sorrows just being part of some play for the master's amusement. I was thrilled to leave Christianity. But, that is not the majority opinion. Nor is it relevant, because atheism is simply about accepting things as they are. In some ways I hate that religion has to be an off limits topic, with how it affects people and society for better or worse, but I had to come out of it when the time was right for me, so I won't determine for anyone else that it's their time. So … I just keep my mouth shut. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marmot Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 I think we also need to stop defining ourselves by what we aren't (theists) and what we don't have (delusions that all will be well in the end because an all knowing supernatural being is looking out for us). Totally agree. I had never thought about this until Richard Dawkins argued this point in the God Delusion. I plan on raising my (theoretical) kids this way -- I don't want to tell them that I am an atheist. I will tell them I am not a Christian, a Muslim, a Buddhist etc. Religion is ultimately a way to explain the parts of the world that we don't understand/can't comprehend. Science has unemployed the role of religion in our life, so it will have nothing to offer my children about the way life works, outside of parables and stories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted February 23, 2012 Super Moderator Share Posted February 23, 2012 I'm not selling anything, hard or otherwise. Not buying, either. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeCoastie Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Actually I think Christianity is dying. It is getting harder to justify Christianity given what science has learned. Gay people can join the military now. Fundamentalists have to homeschool their kids to keep them in the faith. I really hope this is the case. I have a lot of faith in education and science as a way of secularizing our nation. I know that a much higher percent of young people are atheists/agnostics than just 20 years ago...I am hoping this is not a cyclical trend but a secular, progressive trend (in the true meaning of those words). I am sure there will always be entrenched crazies but I hope agnosticism becomes the norm in the next 20-30 years. I think that's possible. Church's are retaining very little of their young. They'll have even less of the next generation in their grubby hands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
owen652 Posted February 23, 2012 Author Share Posted February 23, 2012 Actually I think Christianity is dying. It is getting harder to justify Christianity given what science has learned. Gay people can join the military now. Fundamentalists have to homeschool their kids to keep them in the faith. I really hope this is the case. I have a lot of faith in education and science as a way of secularizing our nation. I know that a much higher percent of young people are atheists/agnostics than just 20 years ago...I am hoping this is not a cyclical trend but a secular, progressive trend (in the true meaning of those words). I am sure there will always be entrenched crazies but I hope agnosticism becomes the norm in the next 20-30 years. I think that's possible. Church's are retaining very little of their young. They'll have even less of the next generation in their grubby hands. that may very well be possible in the western world, and i hope it is. very different story in, say, Africa. and a VERY different story when it comes to Islam. anyway, i've just seen a lot of angry athiests on youtube who evangelize very strongly, usually by shouting, swearing etc. don't get me wrong, i love dusty smith, but only as entertainment value. I think when Christians see this it reinforces their stereotype (which i used to buy into) that all atheists are arrogant and bitter. I just wish we could see more people like this guy: http://www.youtube.com/user/Evid3nc3 he blew me away with his graciousness, honesty and quiet intellect. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marmot Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Actually I think Christianity is dying. It is getting harder to justify Christianity given what science has learned. Gay people can join the military now. Fundamentalists have to homeschool their kids to keep them in the faith. I really hope this is the case. I have a lot of faith in education and science as a way of secularizing our nation. I know that a much higher percent of young people are atheists/agnostics than just 20 years ago...I am hoping this is not a cyclical trend but a secular, progressive trend (in the true meaning of those words). I am sure there will always be entrenched crazies but I hope agnosticism becomes the norm in the next 20-30 years. I think that's possible. Church's are retaining very little of their young. They'll have even less of the next generation in their grubby hands. I used to always get stressed out about this phenomenon...how few of the young people seemed to care about church. Funny how hopeful I am now that the tables have been turned! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marmot Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Actually I think Christianity is dying. It is getting harder to justify Christianity given what science has learned. Gay people can join the military now. Fundamentalists have to homeschool their kids to keep them in the faith. I really hope this is the case. I have a lot of faith in education and science as a way of secularizing our nation. I know that a much higher percent of young people are atheists/agnostics than just 20 years ago...I am hoping this is not a cyclical trend but a secular, progressive trend (in the true meaning of those words). I am sure there will always be entrenched crazies but I hope agnosticism becomes the norm in the next 20-30 years. I think that's possible. Church's are retaining very little of their young. They'll have even less of the next generation in their grubby hands. that may very well be possible in the western world, and i hope it is. very different story in, say, Africa. and a VERY different story when it comes to Islam. anyway, i've just seen a lot of angry athiests on youtube who evangelize very strongly, usually by shouting, swearing etc. don't get me wrong, i love dusty smith, but only as entertainment value. I think when Christians see this it reinforces their stereotype (which i used to buy into) that all atheists are arrogant and bitter. I just wish we could see more people like this guy: http://www.youtube.com/user/Evid3nc3 he blew me away with his graciousness, honesty and quiet intellect. prplfox is great, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrotherJosh Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 I used to always get stressed out about this phenomenon...how few of the young people seemed to care about church. Funny how hopeful I am now that the tables have been turned! Christianity, and religion in general, is shooting itself in the foot. The more they rail against gay marriage, gender equality and tolerance the more they marginalize themselves. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Positivist Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Christianity, and religion in general, is shooting itself in the foot. The more they rail against gay marriage, gender equality and tolerance the more they marginalize themselves. And this marginalized group (joyfully?) calls themselves "the remnant". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marmot Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Christianity, and religion in general, is shooting itself in the foot. The more they rail against gay marriage, gender equality and tolerance the more they marginalize themselves. I'm counting on this to help my wife deconvert. A couple of times a week when my wife gets home from school, I show her a new article about conservative Christians saying stupid things about birth control, gay marriage, or something else. She is liberal and is pretty down on Christians right now, and I'm loving it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
older Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 You have made some very good points in the OP. That's why I also do not go around 'selling' atheism. I don't want to ruin people's fantasies about heaven and such. I miss some of that myself!!! Atheism is the hard core sell of reality and most people don't want to know about it. Very true fact...... Bingo. They don't want to know. They are afraid that questioning might lead them somewhere they are afraid to go. Also, considering how pissed I get when Christians try to lay their ideas on me, I avoid trying to de-convert. If someone wants to debate, I'll go into it (I can hardly wait for the Witnesses to come by again), but otherwise, I keep my mouth shut. But if the action involves legislating their beliefs, that's another matter and I'll certainly be heard then. And I prefer to call myself a humanist rather than an atheist. The latter term is about what I am not, and it carries much prejudice with it. I'd rather use a term that shows what I do think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToonForever Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 I am an atheist and I have found it to not be a brick wall at all. Yes, it requires growth, but it is good! I am a recent de-convert (in the last couple of years--it's been a process) and when the goodness of atheism hit home was this: I was having a fine potluck with some of my newer atheist friends (selected as friends because I like them, not because of their unbelief). The food was amazing, the company was loving, and the talk was of ideas and life. We shared each others joys and sorrows. We laughed and shared great wine. Then we pulled out some musical instruments to jam a bit. The candles flickered, our cheeks were flushed, and I felt a new camaraderie with my fellow human, such as I have never felt before. Here we are, together, huddling around the fire of finding joy, tasting our humanity and sharing in it. I have never felt so human. It's amazing, rich and terrifying, all at once. That was beautiful. It really moved me. Being truly human, being truly here, rather than just passing through and waiting for some unknown magic kingdom, is invigorating. Thanks for sharing that 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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