Don't Forget The Dead People

[lunaticheathen]

http://www.llewellyn.com/blog/2012/02/dont-forget-the-dead-people/

 

Yes, it's the Llewellyn blog, but it's a guest post by Mambo T (I know her better as Hekatawy I / Tamara). It's very short, but is one of the fastest and best explanations I've ever read about the Western resistance to ancestor veneration, even amongst modern pagans who are supposed to be returning to the "old ways." The part about the Protestant Reformation never occurred to me.

 

I know I'm one of the lonely crazy pagans around here, but any constructive thoughts could be fun.

[Deva]

I think she is right about Protestantism being a cause for not remembering ancestors or seeing them as a source of help. I am no expert on it, but it seems to be less so in Catholicism, where there are masses for the dead. Despite Protestant Christians believing the dead are alive either in heaven or hell, there is no sense that they are present - they are in some far off realm and can't help us.

 

Human beings are reduced to being unimportant in many ways in Christianity, while God is elevated. It was easy for the whole western culture to slip into complete nihilism, which is really what we have now. Despite lip service and a veneer of Christianity, it seems like a lot of people in the US think death is the end. It is not a spiritual culture.

 

In Buddhism of course there is reincarnation and in Tibetan Buddhism, the Bardo, where the person wanders for a period of time. It is thought that some people can control where they go and also there are ways to help people even after death.

[lunaticheathen]

It is not a spiritual culture.

 

This is the biggest problem, I think. While many will say they are spiritual, and attend services, and might even hunger and thirst for a real spiritual connection, the culture just does not foster it. And the crazy thing is, watching people get into pagan and other "old ways" faiths for years, there is very much this disconnect with basic things like this, things our ancestors *did* do, but for some reason, many can't grasp.

 

I see it in Kemetic Orthodoxy, one of those very African traditional faiths she speaks of in the article (and leads, so, I kind of see where she's coming from here), where it just doesn't occur all that easily to people to speak with their ancestors about basic every day problems, to pray to them instead of the gods, even when it's a basic cornerstone of the faith we're taught pretty much from day one. It's logical in a way - the gods aren't human, your ancestors are, they're "closer", in a way, to yourself, easier to relate to, and might have actually experienced your problem.

 

Some people are even nervous about speaking and connecting with "the dead", to the point of admitting "it's spooky." Well, it's not like this belief was hidden and sprung upon anyone, it's in the beginner's class, as an equal pillar to Netjer Itself. I'm not sure why it never bothered me, maybe because I've had dreams where my dead relatives come to tell me something for years now, but, it floors me to see this problem. But I do, over and over. In most other cultures, there isn't this gulf between the living and the dead. It's a very modern, western thing, and I don't get it.

 

And it is kind of nihlistic. Ew. Maybe that's why it feels unnatural to me to ignore my ancestors.

[Zephie]

I do practice some elements of paganism and one thing that I, for sure, aam learning is that my ancestors do communicate with me. As a Christian I was taught that to communicate with the dead was wrong. However, when I think of the ways that my Mimi has tried to communicate with me via hummingbirds (we all know that's who she sent to us after she died only didn't want to believe it), I feel a sense of healing in our relationship. Suddenly, I am comming to know that she does love me and that's she's not too busy to talk with me. I didn't have a strong relationship with her in life mainly due to my mom's intervention. I don't know. I am going to read that article.

[Antlerman]

This is interesting. I was just talking about this with my parents a couple days ago about how many cultures have ancestor worship but we here in the West don't. The reason the topic came up was I have done extensive genealogical research working with my mother, unearthing the histories of our ancestors. The process of this has brought their lives to life for me, and through it I feel my life has been enriched, recognizing their histories and their humanness, as I experience my own in my life cutting my path through time as them.

 

I had discovered my great grandfather moved his family to a Christian Utopian city that was built in 1901 in Illinois, and have learned a great deal about his life, the city, and those people's hopes and aspirations. I have found a true connection to my great grandparents through this, recognizing what was in their own hearts as they tried to find expression for it in that form of faith. I have had to say the least, many 'synchronistic' moments surrounding them in my research, and travels to where they lived and are now buried. For me as a rational person to not recognize those as more than just statistical odds is mentally careless. There is definitely something there. In my practice of Insight Meditations, I have on more that a few occasion had what you can call "visions" of them, which I recognize as powerful projections from my subconscious mind. Within that place of meditation, in that altered state of consciousness, the bond and connection is quite unencumbered and direct.

 

All in all, the effect of this, not just in my waking conscious mind in doing historical research, but in my subconscious mind's voice brought up to my conscious mind, creates a genuine rootedness and groundedness that we in the West are largely detached from. Being detached in this way makes us increasingly disconnected from our own selves in the World. The past, our past, our relatives, our culture, our traditions, all of it, are part of who we are today whether or not we recognize it. To recognize it, to embrace it, to celebrate it, to integrate it, helps to make whole our conscious minds, helping to wake us from our unconscious slumber we call truth and reality.

[VacuumFlux]

There does seem to be a weird phobia of death in the culture I'm surrounded by. It made it hard to complete the grieving process when no one wanted to use the words "dead" or "death" around me and kept tiptoeing around it with gentler euphemisms. I finally managed to have a good, honest conversation with a friend whose mom had been a hospice nurse and had gotten used to talking about death as a reality.

 

One of my grandpas died when I was a preteen. It felt... surreal at the time. I did cry, but I didn't exactly understand why, and I didn't understand what I was supposed to feel and I didn't understand the emotions of everyone at the funeral. I'm older now, and I'm starting to understand more, and I feel like I ought to go back and... finish something, complete something. We go to visit his grave sometimes, and then we find his spot in the graveyard, and just stand there and stare at the little plaque. Then we leave. That is wrong. I should be going there and doing something. I have no idea what.

[mymistake]

http://www.llewellyn...he-dead-people/

 

Yes, it's the Llewellyn blog, but it's a guest post by Mambo T (I know her better as Hekatawy I / Tamara). It's very short, but is one of the fastest and best explanations I've ever read about the Western resistance to ancestor veneration, even amongst modern pagans who are supposed to be returning to the "old ways." The part about the Protestant Reformation never occurred to me.

 

I know I'm one of the lonely crazy pagans around here, but any constructive thoughts could be fun.

 

There is nothing wrong with paganism or remembering ancestors or any other religion as long as you don't hurt anybody. I presume you don't hurt anybody unless I see evidence that indicates otherwise. Quit kicking yourself and quit kicking your religion. You are a fine person Luna.

[Antlerman]

We go to visit his grave sometimes, and then we find his spot in the graveyard, and just stand there and stare at the little plaque. Then we leave. That is wrong. I should be going there and doing something. I have no idea what.

What I have done in my reconnection with my ancestors, in finding their graves I stand over them and recall everything I can about them and send an offering of my thoughts to them, holding them as it were in my heart and mind. Its a sort of offering of respect and gratitude and personal appreciation.

 

Now I have to share a bit of my story regarding the above mentioned great grandparents from my earlier post. When I was first trying to find information on them in where they lived in Zion, Illinois, I had been in Chicago on a trip for a week for advanced technical training. I stayed one extra day to drive up to Zion with a rental car to just see what I could turn up. I only had 6 hours to do this in as my flight out of Chicago was that night. I just 'improvised' my trip there to see what I could find. I knew of one cemetery to check to see if they were there, which was the first place I hit. They weren't there, and I knew there were about 6 other graveyards around, but had no idea where to start. As I was just driving around the city out of the corner of my eye I saw a public library so I turned around and stopped there to see what history I might find about the city in its early days. Of the books they had, he had a list of deaths between 1900 and 1920. My great grandfather had died in 1937, but I recalled my great grandmother died young in 1915. Sure enough, she was listed in it, with the cause of death, the physician, and the cemetery! Now it gets interesting.

 

I made a beeline to the graveyard, and as I entered into the grounds there stood a lone man playing the bagpipes. It was a beautiful day. I drove around a little, but the yard was very large and had no idea where to begin. The office was closed on Saturdays, but the grounds keeper showed up just then in his car as I was looking at the closed office, as there was an event that day for a fallen soldier who died that day two years ago. The bagpiper was for them. He opened his office and looked up my relatives for me and sent me to the site with a map. As I found them and stood there for the first time ever, I was overwhelmed with an incredible sense of connection to them. It was very sacred. The beautiful day, how everything just gracefully fell into place, one, two, three.... in finding them within only 2 hours that way with only just 'seeing what happens' as my plan, the bagpipes, and everything. It was absolutely beautiful and sacred.

 

I have since gone back another time, and there is more to share, but this is enough to make the point.

[lunaticheathen]

All in all, the effect of this, not just in my waking conscious mind in doing historical research, but in my subconscious mind's voice brought up to my conscious mind, creates a genuine rootedness and groundedness that we in the West are largely detached from. Being detached in this way makes us increasingly disconnected from our own selves in the World. The past, our past, our relatives, our culture, our traditions, all of it, are part of who we are today whether or not we recognize it. To recognize it, to embrace it, to celebrate it, to integrate it, helps to make whole our conscious minds, helping to wake us from our unconscious slumber we call truth and reality.

 

I think this pretty well sums up the usefulness of ancestor veneration, as well as what is missing when a culture does not participate in it. That connection to the past is lost. Japan has the Bon festival, most African religions have some form of ancestor festival, Kemetic Orthodoxy has the Akhu festival, as well as the 6th day of every (religious) month is dedicated to prayers and reconnection with the akhu - even Catholics integrated European pagan traditions into Hallow'een and All Saints Day, but we seem to have lost a great deal of the real connection.

 

Also, your story of finding your ancestors' graves is a lovely one. I really think we'd be better as a society if we did honor our dead more.

[Akheia]

I'd upvote Antlerman's post if I could. That was beautiful and touching, wonderfully written and scorchingly evocative. And Luna, that was a neat link that gave me much to think about. You're definitely not the only crazy pagan floating around here.

 

One thing I love about my own tradition is that it does venerate those who've gone before. I don't really worry about the afterlife, which is such a damned relief after being worried about it for years, but I try to make the best I can out of what I have right now. Part of that process is veneration. There are several beautiful ceremonies around ancestors in my faith, but I guess I could say veneration's in my blood: Catholics do a lot more than Protestants with ancestors--any religion that thinks dead saints can hear prayers is going to be a secret ancestor-worshipping cult, though they'd deny everything. Every one of my relatives thinks our dead family members can hear us and help us, if their chain emails are anything to go by. I'm hardly immune to that thinking: I've several times felt my dead mother has miraculously aided me in times of great need and stress. (OH the stories I could tell.) Ancestor veneration is part of the real reason that I don't just go flat-out atheist. It's impossible for me to deny the divine entirely when I have these very real feelings.

 

That aside, definitely Christianity tries to generally divorce itself from ancestors and veneration. I find it a very sterile, bloodless faith in many ways, as it's preached by the evangelicals. I've read Norse poetry that calls Jesus "the white god," and you've got to think the reason doesn't have anything to do with his ethnicity. But it's not effective to just call a blackout on spirituality. There's always been a "high Christianity" and a "low Christianity;" the "high" is the official stance, but the "low" is what people actually practice. We can all spot differences in the official creed and how Christians actually live, and this veneration is just one of those places. I've seen so many Christian widows (my very dear MIL included) who officially subscribe to the dogma that the dead sleep yet still talk to their beloved husbands, and that's just one example.

 

I've been thinking for some months that I'd like to know more about my family; like many people, I'm pretty much separated from my entire extended family--I know who my parents are, obviously, and grandparents on my mother's side, and aunts/uncles and most of the cousins. Aside from those, I'm clueless. And that's not counting not knowing anything about my adopted dad's side of the family, and knowing more than I'd like to know about bio-dad's. When considering a family tree, which father do I go with? The one I call Daddy, or the one who spurted me into being? I'd love to know what's lurking in my family tree, but I really don't even know where to start.

[Antlerman]

I'd upvote Antlerman's post if I could. That was beautiful and touching, wonderfully written and scorchingly evocative.

Thank you. There's much more I may wish to share regarding this, but I'm limited in time right now. It was truly beautiful, that's all I can say right now.

 

And that's not counting not knowing anything about my adopted dad's side of the family, and knowing more than I'd like to know about bio-dad's. When considering a family tree, which father do I go with? The one I call Daddy, or the one who spurted me into being? I'd love to know what's lurking in my family tree, but I really don't even know where to start.

We have many adopted children in our family tree, and to me that is the family. You were raised by that person and it is who they are in that family history that is passed down to you. The only place bloodline is important is really in understanding genetic histories, which can be important for health reasons.

 

Where to look? I've become quite skilled in research. One place to begin is the free site that the LDS church offers: https://www.familysearch.org/

 

I began there and at a certain point I needed to go much deeper so I subscribed to Ancestry.com. Occasionally they offer a free weekend to all their databases to the public, and I know of people that spend all day digging up as much as they can for free in that time. Just check when they have another one. I think one is soon, if it hasn't passed already. Otherwise, it can be expensive if you do the full world-subscription.

 

Another cool place to go if you are not familiar with it is FindAGrave.com. This link takes you right to the page for cemetery searches: http://www.findagrav.../cgi-bin/fg.cgi It's not exhaustive databases by any means, and is volunteer contributions. I post my relatives photos and brief bios there. You can leave 'flowers' etc on the site at their memorial. It's pretty cool. If you find a relative's grave, you can put up a request for a volunteer in the area to go take of a photo of their memorial for you. I've done that a few times, and practically the next day it was there! I imagine it's elderly people with the time and interest to help people that way and it gives them great reward.

 

There's tons more I could share on how to do research, but I'm out of time here.

[lunaticheathen]

When considering a family tree, which father do I go with? The one I call Daddy, or the one who spurted me into being? I'd love to know what's lurking in my family tree, but I really don't even know where to start.

 

In my own (Kemetic) tradition, family is who functioned as family to you. Blood ties can be useful, and I have heard great stories about adopted people tracking their bio-families and meeting wonderful and interesting ancestors, but adopted family is still family, they are still tied to you, sometimes more than "blood." Go with where your heart leads you. I also have read in another tradition, there are rituals for banishing truly evil ancestors. I doubt you'd really need to know something like that, but it exists.

 

On my own akhu (ancestor) shrine, I have a picture of my god-father - he's certainly not "blood family", but he is closer than a lot of my extended family to me, and has visited me in dreams and during Halloween parties. I even gave his name to a w'ab priest of Wesir to recite at the state shrine during the major Akhu festival.

 

Basically, don't ever feel like you have to limit your ancestor veneration to blood family. Family is who you love and live with. Blood ties are definitely real, but so are the bonds you make in your life with those around you.

[JadedAtheist]

Having been exposed to cultures where one's deceased relatives are believed to continue on after death, I must say I find it rather disturbing. The few times I went to an Orthodox church with my mother, she would light candles for her dead relatives, to lessen their time in hell. Did I forget to mention you had to pay for the candles and to have them burn inside the church? I have a few Islander friends from Vanuatu, Fiji and PNG and in all cases dead relatives are feared. Elaborate ceremonies are performed to appease them and make sure they fuck off and never come back. Even with the Chinese there is an element of fear when dealing with one's ancestors. It's pure romanticizing if one think that ancestor veneration was an enjoyable experience for most of humanity in the past, or for those practicing it in the present.

 

If one can take a positive take on it for themselves, great. I see nothing wrong with looking up to and respecting your ancestors. Frankly, there isn't enough of it. Personally, I do something similar to the WWJD folks and think of family members whom I respected and think what they would've done in a similar situation before doing it. Not exactly veneration, but a healthy dose of respect and honor, if I do say so myself.

[lunaticheathen]

I have a few Islander friends from Vanuatu, Fiji and PNG and in all cases dead relatives are feared. Elaborate ceremonies are performed to appease them and make sure they fuck off and never come back. Even with the Chinese there is an element of fear when dealing with one's ancestors. It's pure romanticizing if one think that ancestor veneration was an enjoyable experience for most of humanity in the past, or for those practicing it in the present.

 

If you read the article I linked, it does mention that some cultures view the dead as a malevolent force - not purely good. But I guess I'm "romaticizing" because my experiences weren't horrible, and I don't believe in hell.

[JadedAtheist]

If you read the article I linked, it does mention that some cultures view the dead as a malevolent force - not purely good. But I guess I'm "romaticizing" because my experiences weren't horrible, and I don't believe in hell.

No need to get snappy, as I said:

If one can take a positive take on it for themselves, great. I see nothing wrong with looking up to and respecting your ancestors.

As I mentioned, most of my experiences with this are negative. This rebirth of paganism in western culture has taken a positive spin on what has historically been (and in some cultures still is) an oppressive and constant fear. It's great that you can and do have positive experiences, I just think one is reading their experiences into the past to think that everyone in the past experienced things as positively as people do now. Once again, if it's working for you, great. Just throwing my 2 cents about the issue, nothing else.

 

To clarify, I see this with all religions, not just pagans. Christianity and Islam were not always as relaxed as they are now as we all realize.

[lunaticheathen]

Andyou assume all past cultures feared their ancestors, which is also not true. Some did and do, some never have, and never will.

[JadedAtheist]

And you assume all past cultures feared their ancestors, which is also not true. Some did and do, some never have, and never will.

 

True, looking back at my posts I am coming across more dogmatic than I meant to. I did not intend to mean "all" but I do believe it'd probably be a significant portion. Anyways, I'll leave it at that.

[BlueGiant]

I would also throw into consideration: what about ancestors who wouldn't want to be contacted? If you know that your family and your ancestors were/are hardcore Christian, one-and-done kinds of people, and also ones who wouldn't look kindly on contacting them post-mortem, to me, it's a certain matter of respect to them and their wishes to avoid dealing with them. Going to a gravesite and saying hi is one thing. A shrine and veneration would be quite another.

 

Further complication: what counts as an ancestor? Blood lineage? Intellectual lineage? Beyond a certain point I have no idea who I would be talking to.

 

Now, talking and communing with the dead in a more general sense, I find that easier. It's a good way to end up an an impromptu messenger, though.

[lunaticheathen]

Ancestors who don't want to be contacted in this manner are not unheard of. In that case, it is respectful to not do so. Every situation is different, every person is different, and not even all shrines are the same within the same religion. Much less other religions.

 

However, there have been cases I've heard of where an ancestor was part of a strict christian religion where they do look down on ancestor veneration as "necromancy," only to contact the person later and ask to be included in a shrine - or simply welcome contact after death. Death, no matter what you believe about it, is always a huge change. Who knows what could happen to someone after this life is over?

[BlueGiant]

True enough, there are few changes and transitions as permanent as death. It certainly gives someone a different perspective.

[Mitzer]

I feel we're all connected in that spiritual realm (dimension), that we're all part of the same consciousness (rather than created by it), so we're truly all related. In this physical plane whoever we feel closest to are the ones we resonate with and of course they need not be blood relatives. Could it be there's something in whoever we come in contact with that our spiritual selves might at times recognize? If that contact turns out to be not so good, might it be baggage from a former life we're picking up?

"What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas"...lol...probably for the most part. I think that might apply "over there", too (?). Just my take.

[Akheia]

I'm going to necro-post here because I think it's relevant.

 

So I was like all down with this genealogy shit and getting all excited and stuff about it, finding out how many of my relatives lived like a mile away from each other in their hometown and stuff, learning about their stories and their lives, and oh by the way I have a half-brother I didn't know about. 

 

Has this ever happened for anybody else? What did you do, if so?

[JadedAtheist]

I'm going to necro-post here because I think it's relevant.

 

So I was like all down with this genealogy shit and getting all excited and stuff about it, finding out how many of my relatives lived like a mile away from each other in their hometown and stuff, learning about their stories and their lives, and oh by the way I have a half-brother I didn't know about.

 

Has this ever happened for anybody else? What did you do, if so?

 

I have a half-sister that I wasn't informed about till a couple of years ago. Only made contact last year I think. Unfortunately she just wanted to use me for money, so meh.

[Akheia]

Valid concern. My biological father, who is our common link, is an incredibly manipulative con artist. When last we spoke, some 20 years ago when he made contact, I got the clear impression that if I allowed him further access to me, requests for favors and money would be soon following. On the other hand, my half-brother lives very far away from him and seems pretty self-sufficient, and the data that made me realize he exists indicates that my bio-father's relationship with his mother lasted even less time than the one he had with my own mother. I guess there's nothing that has to happen right away.

[Antlerman]

I'm going to necro-post here because I think it's relevant.

 

So I was like all down with this genealogy shit and getting all excited and stuff about it, finding out how many of my relatives lived like a mile away from each other in their hometown and stuff, learning about their stories and their lives, and oh by the way I have a half-brother I didn't know about.

 

Has this ever happened for anybody else? What did you do, if so?

I absolutely know what you are talking about! I've done extensive research into my family genealogy, starting with only about a dozen known relatives, and now with over 1700 in my tree. I have met and come into contact with many living relatives as a result of this. You are absolutely correct about the sort of living connection you establish with your deceased relatives through this. I have many stories I can share to this.

 

Probably the most major one was discovering my great grandfather was part of a religious utopian city started in 1901, and how ironically my own path 80 years later bore strange resemblance to his own, unknown to me in any way. I have found such wonderful connection with them in their own searching for direction and hope as young people and the paths they took. It has brought very many of his descendents together today through my path in learning about them. The family has come back together again after a hundred years.

 

I could go on at length should you wish.