bornagainathiest Posted March 15, 2012 Author Share Posted March 15, 2012 We might agree that we are both experiencing a rainbow, but that agreement doesn't mean that there is just one, true rainbow "out there" that is equally true for both of us. Question, A-man! Is this an apt description of what might be called a perceptual or experiential truth? It's ironic to say the least, but in thinking how to explain this prior to you posting this I was going to use the example of language explaining how we can speak of a couch as a noun, a physical object, and it color red with words and how red does not exist in nature. I was thinking how to explain that, and yet here you offered essentially that very example, with the color red itself nonetheless! Need I say more? It gets more complex than this, but its good to see you get this. Guess what, A-Man? I even played devil's advocate with myself, to test Berman's idea of rainbow's not being there. This... http://images.nation...399_600x450.jpg ...is proof poz that rainbows do exist outside of our skulls. If a camera can record them, they must be real, right? Not so. A camera is a mechanical analog of the human eye, complete with a lens and an electronic 'retina'. It has no brain to tell it that it has just taken a shot of a rainbow or anything else. It simply records the light, without interpreting or understanding what it's doing. However, when we look at the image above, the concept of "rainbow" comes to mind because we compare the shape and color on the screen to the mental model inside our brains. This model is based upon our memories and experiences. Only if we'd never seen a rainbow before in our lives and never had one described to us, would we be baffled by that colorful arc in the sky. Therefore, even though cameras can photograph them, the important point is that we are not just cameras. That is an overly-simplistic understanding. How we do understand them is another matter... for the future. BAA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted March 15, 2012 Author Share Posted March 15, 2012 Adding an additional thought: I should make it clear that in the mental domain it is not all flimsy and double-speak. Not at all. It most definitely has structure in rules, but it's not something that is as easy as looking at concrete objects. A good analogy is like a card game. You can most definitely look at the deck of cards as physical objects and make solid conclusions: "There are 13 cards of 4 different sets of cards equally 52 cards in the deck." But actually playing the game requires a different set of rules; rules of engagement, rules of etiquette, etc. There is definite structure there, but a lot less solid than the 'facts' of the cards. So I'm beginning to discover. This is like learning to play a new and interesting game. It's fun! Ah yes! But we come to the matter of emotions and personal preferences - again! Not necessarily. Conventions. Those are structures, which mean they are external to the purely subjective. They deal with the intersubjective, as well as the objective. We navigate the world in structures that suit where we are at in our individual and shared worldspaces. A worked example (like the rainbow) might help me here, A-Man. The card game worked fine - I got that. Struggling with what external to the purely subjective might be. Thanks. Now here is where it gets really interesting. We grow. The structures that suited us at one stage of our growth no longer are proper for the next. I hope we continue this discussion and open the doors to that! Looking back, I can now see that I've confined my reading to what could be called the 'hard' sciences, where testing and experiment yields hard data and hard evidence. Why did I do this? IMO, see my first reply in this latest series of replies. I think I can see this, because I'm not that different that you at a different time in my life. Then there could be a double-benefit to this dialog. Not only are you sharing with me, but those reading this dialog may well be inspired to grow and flourish too. If truth-seeking behavior is a common thing in the lives of this forum's members, then wouldn't it be great if that they take something nourishing from this thread? If knowledge equals power, then this self-recognition should give me the opportunity to manage myself better and open myself up - without this unconscious anxiety causing me flinch away from the new, in favor of the old and safe. The knowledge and power are on a whole different level, for an entirely different reason. It's not about safety and security, but a pure love for valuing the world and ourselves in it. Knowledge in all areas, science, philosophy, and a spiritually realized self. Each is increasingly richer and deeper, like a wine cherished and loved. Ah! Should have read this before I asked about Carl Sagan. Thanks for the guidance A-Man. BAA. Dude, if you get anything out of what I say, than I am truly grateful and humbled. Thank you. Oh shuggles! Kinda choked up now. BAA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 I'll offer thoughts later, but I just watched this and thought it goes into where this whole move of where we have come from and are going to leads us. I see an integral world of knowledge of our material world, of our human nature, and our spiritual nature as the future for the world. I like how this presents some of this: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted March 16, 2012 Author Share Posted March 16, 2012 I'll offer thoughts later, but I just watched this and thought it goes into where this whole move of where we have come from and are going to leads us. I see an integral world of knowledge of our material world, of our human nature, and our spiritual nature as the future for the world. I like how this presents some of this: Ok A-Man. I'll be making some quality time to watch and digest this video over the weekend. I'm also maintain a holding pattern today, awaiting your thoughts. Thanks, BAA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ ficino ♦ Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 Then there could be a double-benefit to this dialog. Not only are you sharing with me, but those reading this dialog may well be inspired to grow and flourish too. If truth-seeking behavior is a common thing in the lives of this forum's members, then wouldn't it be great if that they take something nourishing from this thread? I've been following since the beginning of the thread, but not sure I'm following all of it... Anyway, rock on, guys! I like the point in your video, A-man, that people's first tendency is usually to consider the unfamiliar wrong, even evil, and that empathy is so important to lead us to better conclusions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted March 17, 2012 Author Share Posted March 17, 2012 AntlerMan wrote... I'll offer thoughts later, but I just watched this and thought it goes into where this whole move of where we have come from and are going to leads us. I see an integral world of knowledge of our material world, of our human nature, and our spiritual nature as the future for the world. I like how this presents some of this: Ok A-Man, I watched it twice and wholeheartedly agree with the sentiments expressed... greater empathy. On a personal note, I wish that I were a more empathic person. Here (rightly or wrongly) I use the word, 'empathy' to mean the ability to understand the lives and circumstances of others. Yes, of course I can understand others well enough to function in the society where I live. But you'll notice that I just say, 'well enough' - that's as far as it goes. As I've already said, I'm not really an intuitive person. Too often I frustrate those I interact with because I fail to understand (empathize) with them. That is, I fail to read their unspoken intentions or to intuit what's been left unsaid. So, I often have to ask people to explain what it is they mean (they usually assume I'm going to just 'get' it on the paucity of non-verbal clues they've given me) or what it is they want me to do (because I'm not much good at anticipating their needs or potential courses of action) and this causes friction. Are these not the hallmarks of a personal empathy-deficit? An inability to better understand the lives and circumstances of others? The very things the video seems to be calling out for? You'll also note that I just can't seem to make the intuitive leaps of understanding that you (and Legion, in another thread) seem to expect of me. Everything has to be explained in sequence, not parallel. One thing cannot proceed until the first is properly understood. Worked examples are required to show a certain idea or process in action. New ideas and new terms don't just 'click' into place, they need to be explained. I reckon that both of you have yet to fully appreciate this about me, but I hope you will. Now, I'm not saying that this dialog isn't going to work. It already has and I've made some progress. I just don't want to you to be under any illusions of how long and difficult a road this could turn out to be. You've already shown considerable patience and forebearance and I thank you for that. Lastly, please note that in this post I'm not about under-estimating or under-valuing myself, even if it looks that way. Instead I'm trying to give a balanced representation of myself. Here's what I know. I love and am loved. I am an intelligent person. I have considerable knowledge of certain subjects. I am well read and well spoken. I have an insatiable curiousity about the natural world. I'm an avid appreciator of the arts. I'm fairly well travelled. I possess a number of valuable skills. I enjoy my work and it gives pleasure to others. I think that I have added value to the lives of people in this forum. I'm also a moral and ethical person. So yes, there is much about me that is good and praise-worthy. It's just that your video A-man, asks for something that I know I currently lack... empathy. I know this. It is my hope that you will take this into account as we walk together. Thanks, BAA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted March 17, 2012 Author Share Posted March 17, 2012 Then there could be a double-benefit to this dialog. Not only are you sharing with me, but those reading this dialog may well be inspired to grow and flourish too. If truth-seeking behavior is a common thing in the lives of this forum's members, then wouldn't it be great if that they take something nourishing from this thread? I've been following since the beginning of the thread, but not sure I'm following all of it... Anyway, rock on, guys! I like the point in your video, A-man, that people's first tendency is usually to consider the unfamiliar wrong, even evil, and that empathy is so important to lead us to better conclusions. To Ficino... Good point. Too often fear and/or mistrust are the first and instinctive reactions. Empathy either follows on much later or not at all. To Antlerman... I'd like to present something that Ficino's post has raised in my mind. Specifically, has evolution played some kind of trick on us and wired our brains to make empathy more difficult and suspicion more easy? I won't link to site right now, but if you think it's relevant and helpful, just lmk. Thanks, BAA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 BAA, I don't have time to offer a full response as I hope to, but in quick response to your recent posts: You are hardly far away from empathy at all. You express self-recognition and a genuine humility. It is a very simple step from that place to empathy. But one thing to clarify, empathy is not just in your interpersonal relationships, but to strangers, other life forms, and the planet itself. You asked about evolution are we wired to struggle with empathy. The answer appears to a strong no. We are wired for the opposite. We are wired for empathy. What the causes of our distrusts are, I will hopefully get to in later discussions. Please remind me to come back to this point. In the meantime, as a follow up to that video I want to repost that first one I linked to before this last one 21st Century Enlightenment. That first one is called an Empathic Civilization. It specifically address this point, and you as a rational, systematic thinking person as I am, will definitely appreciate it. It touches on a huge number of points I want to address with you as we move forward together in this discussion. Here's the video: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted March 19, 2012 Author Share Posted March 19, 2012 Antlerman wrote... BAA, I don't have time to offer a full response as I hope to, but in quick response to your recent posts: Not a problem, A-Man. This isn't a sprint... it's a walk. So if we pause from time to time to rest and reflect (as well as admire the flowers), I don't see the harm in that. Besides, one can only sprint so far before the the body demands a halt, whereas a walk can last as long as the walkers like. Anyway, here's a little song for you. One that seems fitting... The Road goes ever on and on Down from the door where it began. Now far ahead the Road has gone, And I must follow, if I can, Pursuing it with eager feet, Until it joins some larger way Where many paths and errands meet. And whither then? I cannot say. You are hardly far away from empathy at all. You express self-recognition and a genuine humility. It is a very simple step from that place to empathy. But one thing to clarify, empathy is not just in your interpersonal relationships, but to strangers, other life forms, and the planet itself. Yes. I appreciate that. The previous video makes that case quite well. But now I must ask another question. Isn't it asking a great deal for me to think in terms of global, planet-encompassing empathy when it's seems asking much less to start small and then grow big? Using your image on nested bowls and envisaging empathy as a fluid, isn't it more practical to fill the smallest, innermost bowl first and then to let it overflow naturally into the next and the next and so on? Ok! Ok! After a quick re-read, I now see that you're talking about the aim described in the video and that you aren't asking me to do this overnight, right? Your highlighted sentence above isn't an urgent command, it's a clarification. See how easily I put myself under pressure? You asked about evolution are we wired to struggle with empathy. The answer appears to a strong no. We are wired for the opposite. We are wired for empathy.What the causes of our distrusts are, I will hopefully get to in later discussions. Please remind me to come back to this point. Will do so. At that point it may well be pertinent for me to introduce the information that I mentioned in my previous post. Please note that I'm not openly challenging what you say about the human capacity for empathy. No. It's just that we might be remiss if we proceeded on the basis that we are only wired for empathy and nothing else. That, imho, would be an unbalanced approach. If we examine other factors that go to make up the human condition, we may well get a fuller idea of where and how empathy sits among them. After all, isn't it counter-productive to deny our contradictions, rather than to recognize them for what they are and embrace them? Woot! Did you see that, A-man? The previous two paragraphs. Do I see myself transcending and including... for the first time? If so, this could be a sea-change... "into something, both rich and strange!" In the meantime, as a follow up to that video I want to repost that first one I linked to before this last one 21st Century Enlightenment. That first one is called an Empathic Civilization. It specifically address this point, and you as a rational, systematic thinking person as I am, will definitely appreciate it. It touches on a huge number of points I want to address with you as we move forward together in this discussion. I shall be watching it again, tonight. All the best, BAA. p.s. A grain of self-knowledge too? "See how easily I put myself under pressure?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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