Legion Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Actually, effects can precede their causes. It's a routine occurance. It happens with anticipation. It happens in biology. The idea that effects cannot precede their causes is intimately bound up with reductionism. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oddbird1963 Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Actually, effects can precede their causes. It's a routine occurance. It happens with anticipation. It happens in biology. Examples please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted February 23, 2012 Author Share Posted February 23, 2012 Actually, effects can precede their causes. It's a routine occurance. It happens with anticipation. It happens in biology. Examples please. I hope to do that in time Oddbird. While I wait for A-man to make an appearance in this thread, I will try to think of examples. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted February 24, 2012 Author Share Posted February 24, 2012 Oddbird, thank you for presenting me with this challenge and opportunity. This is very timely for me, because I am trying to understand some things over here about, complexity, final causes, and paradox. Examples please. Suppose we have a guy who finds himself in the following dilemma... He needs a woman in his life to inspire him to achieve; he needs to achieve in order to attract a woman. What advice would you give him, and why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oddbird1963 Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 Oddbird, thank you for presenting me with this challenge and opportunity. This is very timely for me, because I am trying to understand some things over here about, complexity, final causes, and paradox. Examples please. Suppose we have a guy who finds himself in the following dilemma... He needs a woman in his life to inspire him to achieve; he needs to achieve in order to attract a woman. What advice would you give him, and why? And thank you Legion for taking the time to present an example. I don't think it qualifies as an example of effect preceding cause. What this situation presents us with is a person has not found the "cause" of his future achievement. Without a cause there won't be any effect. In fact, it is an example of cause preceding effect. IF your first statement were true and the second statement were true, he merely wouldn't ever achieve anything unless a woman wandered into his life and accepted him for his potential. So, while it is a dilemma, it is not an example of effect preceding cause. I understand the psychological weight of such dilemmas. "You have to spend money to make money. I have no money, so I can't make money" and on and on. There are hundreds of them I suppose and they account for the gray hairs on my head and face. But even in their simplistic forms, they are still actually examples of cause preceding effect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted February 24, 2012 Author Share Posted February 24, 2012 Oddbird, thank you for presenting me with this challenge and opportunity. This is very timely for me, because I am trying to understand some things over here about, complexity, final causes, and paradox. Examples please. Suppose we have a guy who finds himself in the following dilemma... He needs a woman in his life to inspire him to achieve; he needs to achieve in order to attract a woman. What advice would you give him, and why? And thank you Legion for taking the time to present an example. I don't think it qualifies as an example of effect preceding cause. What this situation presents us with is a person has not found the "cause" of his future achievement. Without a cause there won't be any effect. In fact, it is an example of cause preceding effect. IF your first statement were true and the second statement were true, he merely wouldn't ever achieve anything unless a woman wandered into his life and accepted him for his potential. So, while it is a dilemma, it is not an example of effect preceding cause. I understand the psychological weight of such dilemmas. "You have to spend money to make money. I have no money, so I can't make money" and on and on. There are hundreds of them I suppose and they account for the gray hairs on my head and face. But even in their simplistic forms, they are still actually examples of cause preceding effect. I wasn't trying to provide an example. I was hoping to explore something with you. Oh well. I will accept that you have placed yourself in opposition to me. I will return to trying to think of some examples. I will give it a genuine effort, because I think this is important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oddbird1963 Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 I wasn't trying to provide an example. I was hoping to explore something with you. Oh well. I will accept that you have placed yourself in opposition to me. I will return to trying to think of some examples. I will give it a genuine effort, because I think this is important. Well, my mistake, for one thing. I thought you were trying to provide an example of effect preceding cause. And this clearly wasn't an example of that. I will be glad to hear of some examples of these when you are ready. I wouldn't think of us as in opposition to one another just yet since you said you weren't offering that as an example of effect preceding cause. The question you wanted to explore was "What advice would you give him, and why?" My advices would be to stop looking to external sources for his ambition. When that source is gone, then the ambition is gone. When you try and fail, you open the door to blaming others for what is our own responsibility. It's nice to encounter people who inspire us and help us to see better possibilities for ourselves. But the time spent cultivating internal and personal resources for ambition and inspiration will pay off more in the long run and we do not grow dependent on others for our internal state (happiness, creativity, discipline, drive. . .). We always have ourselves. We may not always have our muse or our inspiration (or drill sergeant, maybe?). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 Well, my mistake, for one thing. Yes, what can I do for you? (just kidding) I thought you were trying to provide an example of effect preceding cause. And this clearly wasn't an example of that. I will be glad to hear of some examples of these when you are ready. All such examples will involve time travel. It's the only way to reverse causality. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrotherJosh Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy_(arrow_of_time) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted February 25, 2012 Author Share Posted February 25, 2012 All such examples will involve time travel. It's the only way to reverse causality. You say this as the bearer of Truth™ himself. I believe you are grossly mistaken. I think you are placing severe apriori restrictions on causality and you don't fully realize the nature of time. However, I admit that providing examples will be a challenge for me. This thread's subject matter is very fortuitous for me in some sense, because it resides exactly at the heart of where my learning has brought me so far. But I have much learning to do. And to provide examples, I will have to learn here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 All such examples will involve time travel. It's the only way to reverse causality. You say this as the bearer of Truth™ himself. Nope. I'm just repeating what I have reason to believe is true. Of course I can be wrong. Feel free to demonstrate. I believe you are grossly mistaken. I think you are placing severe apriori restrictions on causality and you don't fully realize the nature of time. Maybe. If you demonstrate that is the case then we will both know. Things can be true even when we have no evidence for them however without the evidence we don't have a reason to believe whatever it is. Follow the evidence. However, I admit that providing examples will be a challenge for me. This thread's subject matter is very fortuitous for me in some sense, because it resides exactly at the heart of where my learning has brought me so far. But I have much learning to do. And to provide examples, I will have to learn here. Okay. I think you are being more metaphorical than me and I am being more literal than you. To each his own. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted February 25, 2012 Author Share Posted February 25, 2012 If you demonstrate that is the case then we will both know. This! This is my hope MM. But I don't feel rushed. It took me years to get here, and a little bit more time won't hurt. So keep your britches on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackpudd1n Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 I will return to trying to think of some examples. I will give it a genuine effort, because I think this is important. The chicken and the egg? I'm not being facetious here, I think I'll move this question over to the science forum. Just wondering about how chickens evolved and when they started laying eggs to reproduce, that's all. And yes, my scientific knowledge is so small that I'm not sure if the chicken or the egg came first. *blush* Anyway, I'll chuck this in the science forum. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 I will return to trying to think of some examples. I will give it a genuine effort, because I think this is important. The chicken and the egg? I'm not being facetious here, I think I'll move this question over to the science forum. Just wondering about how chickens evolved and when they started laying eggs to reproduce, that's all. And yes, my scientific knowledge is so small that I'm not sure if the chicken or the egg came first. *blush* Anyway, I'll chuck this in the science forum. The egg came along millions of years before chickens. You would have to ask a paleontologist but it would be on the something like of 80 to 250 million years. So when somebody asks chicken or egg it's no contest. Chickens are the decedents of dinosaurs just like we are the decedents of rodents. Dinosaurs have been laying eggs for a long time. Somehow the dinosaurs that developed beaks and feathers are the ones who survived all the changes that wiped out all the others. Round the same time little mammals survived. The feathered dinosaurs adapted to their new environment by becoming more and more bird-like. The mammals had a golden age and conquered the world diversifying in to canines, felines, equines, pachyderms, cattle, marsupials and various other types including apes (us) The birds diversified as well. One group of birds found that if could survive better by being small and running. Over time they developed into chicken-like birds. A hundred million years explained in a paragraph. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackpudd1n Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 The chicken and the egg? I love you now Puddin'. You who have not been steeped in a reductionist mindset, you who come to it with a clean and uncaged mind, can almost see it. Absolutely amazing. I will weave it in if I can. I've spoken with others, and that helped some. Think of this too Puddin'... Self-fullfilling prophecy. I'd give you a big hug right now if I could. It was the first thing that came to my mind. I wasn't entirely sure if it was relevant, so I sat on it for a few hours, but it started the chew away at me, the question of which, exactly, did come first. I'm not actually sure what a reductionist is, to be honest. On self-fulfilling prophecy, from what I understand of the subject, whether an effect can preceed its cause, I'm not so sure. From my understanding of self-fulfilling prophecies, the person has a belief, usually negative, regarding something, and sub-consciously creates the circumstances to make the situation occur. While the actual person may not be aware of the actions they are doing to cause the end effect, they still have some role to play in the end result, and the only way to change the end result is to make the person aware of how their beliefs impacts upon their behaviours. If that makes any sense. I didn't really intend to get into this debate, it's very much out of my league, I just couldn't get the chicken and the egg out of my mind lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackpudd1n Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 I will return to trying to think of some examples. I will give it a genuine effort, because I think this is important. The chicken and the egg? I'm not being facetious here, I think I'll move this question over to the science forum. Just wondering about how chickens evolved and when they started laying eggs to reproduce, that's all. And yes, my scientific knowledge is so small that I'm not sure if the chicken or the egg came first. *blush* Anyway, I'll chuck this in the science forum. The egg came along millions of years before chickens. You would have to ask a paleontologist but it would be on the something like of 80 to 250 million years. So when somebody asks chicken or egg it's no contest. Chickens are the decedents of dinosaurs just like we are the decedents of rodents. Dinosaurs have been laying eggs for a long time. Somehow the dinosaurs that developed beaks and feathers are the ones who survived all the changes that wiped out all the others. Round the same time little mammals survived. The feathered dinosaurs adapted to their new environment by becoming more and more bird-like. The mammals had a golden age and conquered the world diversifying in to canines, felines, equines, pachyderms, cattle, marsupials and various other types including apes (us) The birds diversified as well. One group of birds found that if could survive better by being small and running. Over time they developed into chicken-like birds. A hundred million years explained in a paragraph. Hmmm, thanks for that, MM. Now I wonder how long it took for the dinosaurs to start laying eggs. Laying eggs would have to require quite a complex system, right? I'd better head over to that science forum again with this now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted February 25, 2012 Author Share Posted February 25, 2012 Puddin', I thought of a question for you here. I assure you that it is relevant to this thread. You say you attend college. Why do you go? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted February 26, 2012 Author Share Posted February 26, 2012 Have you ever done something because you foresaw in part what the future held for you and you acted based on these predictions? I have. And I believe anticipatory behavior is shared by all living beings. I think through anticipation the future affects the present. The cause of much of our behavior in the present resides in the future. This is an example of effects preceding causes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 Have you ever done something because you foresaw in part what the future held for you and you acted based on these predictions? I have. And I believe anticipatory behavior is shared by all living beings. I think through anticipation the future affects the present. The cause of much of our behavior in the present resides in the future. This is an example of effects preceding causes. i.e. Final cause. Right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted February 26, 2012 Author Share Posted February 26, 2012 Have you ever done something because you foresaw in part what the future held for you and you acted based on these predictions? I have. And I believe anticipatory behavior is shared by all living beings. I think through anticipation the future affects the present. The cause of much of our behavior in the present resides in the future. This is an example of effects preceding causes. i.e. Final cause. Right? Wow Hans. I think your instincts and intuitions are very good. As I am coming to understand it, the natural paradoxes which are manifested by organisms are made possibe by final causes. We cannot divorce the concept of function from biology. We are normally concerned with what entails things (i.e. material, efficient, formal causes), but we must also consider what things themselves entail if we want to understand things like function, organization, and natural paradox. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackpudd1n Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 Puddin', I thought of a question for you here. I assure you that it is relevant to this thread. You say you attend college. Why do you go? Simply because I need to. I can't help but question everything around me. And I want to make other people ask questions, too. I am fascinated by everything, and I want to know why people think and act the way that they do. I am extremely puzzeled by people who don't ask questions. Why don't they ask questions? Why do they just accept? University lets me learn and ask more questions. And if I can wrangle it, I plan on staying at uni and eventually becoming a professor, partly because I want to continue learning, and partly because it would be a great place to get people thinking and questioning. I have med students in particular in my sights, because I discovered that much of the ignorance, stereotyping, and stigma among medical professionals regarding mental health issues arises at university, during their studies. And who better to challenge those ways of thinking than a lecturer with bipolar? I want those first-year students. I don't care if there is more prestige in teaching third year students- I want to get at them at the beginning of their training. And, I know that I will be taken more seriously as an advocate for mental health issues if I am a lecturer. So that's why I go to university. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackpudd1n Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 I'm getting to a response to BAA. I just need some time to consider the best approach to penetrate to the heart of the matter to better forward the discussion. Looking forward to it. BAA. Admittedly I'm having some difficulty, because as I'm preparing how I wish to tackle this to bridge the gap of understanding, this thread continues in a different direction. I'm trying to see how the cause and effect question may or may not play into what I'm getting at, but I honestly don't see it as instrumental. It may pertain at some juncture to this discussion, but I don't see it as a ground understanding that makes or breaks where I'm trying to get us to in understanding. Should we consider splitting that part of this thread off into a separate "Egg and Chicken" topic? I think what you and I are heading to in discussion will have a lot more value and relevance, that then a chicken and egg discussion can be interesting in relation to it. I do find it interesting however, not to put it down, to be clear. Thoughts? I'll work on my thoughts now aside from what I see here as a subtopic at this point. Sorry about the chicken and egg thing, A-Man and BAA. I did put chicken and egg into the science forum, but from a philospohical standpoint, which I think this thread may be, maybe it does need to go somewhere else. Sorry about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted February 26, 2012 Author Share Posted February 26, 2012 Is this link relevant, Legion? http://en.wikipedia....use#Final_cause If so, could you help me out here please? My intrinsic Reductionism struggles with stuff like this, so the simpler your explanation, the better. I think reductionism is a cage which can only be unlocked from the inside. It can often be a long process. I am still trying to be free of it myself. A certain restricted meaning of final causes in our explanations is required to account for biological organization. Please see my post to Hans above. Btw, for sentient beings, isn't anticipation based upon past knowledge and the assumption that what worked in the past will also work in a similar way in the future? And this assumption becomes the cause, because it changes the present behavior of the being, resulting (hopefully) in the desired future outcome? Well, I think there is learning (the process of acquiring understanding) on one hand and then there is comprehension on the other (the holding of understanding). I think this distinction somewhat mirrors the distinction between evolution and physiology. But I need your participation here BAA. I'd like for you to answer my question here. Have you ever done something because you foresaw in part what the future held for you and you acted based on these predictions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted February 26, 2012 Author Share Posted February 26, 2012 Puddin', I thought of a question for you here. I assure you that it is relevant to this thread. You say you attend college. Why do you go? Simply because I need to. I can't help but question everything around me. And I want to make other people ask questions, too. I am fascinated by everything, and I want to know why people think and act the way that they do. I am extremely puzzeled by people who don't ask questions. Why don't they ask questions? Why do they just accept? University lets me learn and ask more questions. And if I can wrangle it, I plan on staying at uni and eventually becoming a professor, partly because I want to continue learning, and partly because it would be a great place to get people thinking and questioning. I have med students in particular in my sights, because I discovered that much of the ignorance, stereotyping, and stigma among medical professionals regarding mental health issues arises at university, during their studies. And who better to challenge those ways of thinking than a lecturer with bipolar? I want those first-year students. I don't care if there is more prestige in teaching third year students- I want to get at them at the beginning of their training. And, I know that I will be taken more seriously as an advocate for mental health issues if I am a lecturer. So that's why I go to university. In short though, you attend university because of something it promises in the future. Your behavior today is being shaped by a future which you predict. Yes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackpudd1n Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 Puddin', I thought of a question for you here. I assure you that it is relevant to this thread. You say you attend college. Why do you go? Simply because I need to. I can't help but question everything around me. And I want to make other people ask questions, too. I am fascinated by everything, and I want to know why people think and act the way that they do. I am extremely puzzeled by people who don't ask questions. Why don't they ask questions? Why do they just accept? University lets me learn and ask more questions. And if I can wrangle it, I plan on staying at uni and eventually becoming a professor, partly because I want to continue learning, and partly because it would be a great place to get people thinking and questioning. I have med students in particular in my sights, because I discovered that much of the ignorance, stereotyping, and stigma among medical professionals regarding mental health issues arises at university, during their studies. And who better to challenge those ways of thinking than a lecturer with bipolar? I want those first-year students. I don't care if there is more prestige in teaching third year students- I want to get at them at the beginning of their training. And, I know that I will be taken more seriously as an advocate for mental health issues if I am a lecturer. So that's why I go to university. In short though, you attend university because of something it promises in the future. Your behavior today is being shaped by a future which you predict. Yes? More a hope than a prediction. Life has taught me not to make concrete plans. But yes, a hope does affect my behaviour today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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