mcdaddy Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 Wouldn't he be in hell for all eternity for us? I mean, supposedly the punishment for our crime of unbelief (or actually not following the law or not loving others, depending on which gospel you read), is eternal torment right? So if Jesus stepped in and took our punishment on himself, wouldn't he be in hell right now with no chance at parole? I think most people in all the earth would accept 6 hours of pain, if it would potentially save the souls of billions of people from everlasting, never ending torment. Hell, even Hitler might do that. It's not an apples for apples exchange. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ConureDelSol Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 I agree and this has always been a point I've made. It would be a much more touching story if Jesus had gone to Hell and is still being tortured as we speak to keep us from going there ourselves. Not to mention, the guilt trip would be tenfold for selling Christianity. Then there's the "Three days is an eternity for Jesus" or whatever. Bull honkey. It would be way more epic if in the end days, Jesus broke free from Hell and dished out some serious revenge for being tortured for so many years. Then we could all be like "Yay! He got free and actually seriously sacrificed himself in a way that wasn't stupid!" 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zephie Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 It makes sense that he would. Kinda remember reading somewhere about the fact that he rose from the dead nullified the payment. Of course there are people who will argue that the time that he spent in hell was enough for all of us for all eternity....perhaps that has to do with the fact that he supposedly led a sinless life <---lookie xtianese! With the whole sin-free life, he would have been playment enough is what some people say. Not that it really explains much because in the end it's all b.s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zephie Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 I agree and this has always been a point I've made. It would be a much more touching story if Jesus had gone to Hell and is still being tortured as we speak to keep us from going there ourselves. Not to mention, the guilt trip would be tenfold for selling Christianity. Then there's the "Three days is an eternity for Jesus" or whatever. Bull honkey. It would be way more epic if in the end days, Jesus broke free from Hell and dished out some serious revenge for being tortured for so many years. Then we could all be like "Yay! He got free and actually seriously sacrificed himself in a way that wasn't stupid!" I agree!! Why didn't they think of that!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 Totally agree, mcdaddy. I've asked many Christians the very same question, but I always get a tremendous dance-around, avoiding to answer. Jesus was perfect and God and didn't have to and ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 Christian math: Friday afternoon to pre-dawn Sunday = 3 days To gawd a day is like a thousand years. So Friday afternoon to pre-dawn Sunday in hell = 3,000 years in hell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akheia Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 Um. That's still not forever, which is what Christians say the damned will face. And I'm not sure even a mass murdering genocidal dictator deserves 3000 years of torture for a mere what, 20-50 years of destruction. This is me preaching to the choir: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will02 Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 It would be way more epic if in the end days, Jesus broke free from Hell and dished out some serious revenge for being tortured for so many years. Am I the only one who can easily visualize that as a 1980s-style action movie? Bonus points if you cast Arnold Schwarzenegger (before he got old) as Jesus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 It would be way more epic if in the end days, Jesus broke free from Hell and dished out some serious revenge for being tortured for so many years. Am I the only one who can easily visualize that as a 1980s-style action movie? Bonus points if you cast Arnold Schwarzenegger (before he got old) as Jesus. I'm getting visions of cleansing the temple using a M-16 with grenade launcher attachment. "Crucify me and I'll be back" 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasonother Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 Well, because Jesus Christ was sinless, He could not suffer in actual hell, as far as the fire. The lake of fire is a spiritual, second death. It has no power over those who are made sinless. This is why death had no power over Jesus. So, when He died on the cross, it was a physical death that He, being sinless, did not deserve in God's Eyes. Hell could not have had any power over Him because He had no sin. In a sense, the fires of hell burn sin. Jesus Says in Revelation that the second death has no power over His saints. Why? Because they inherit His Righteousness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackbauer Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 Believer it or not, Arnold actually was in a movie like that. It's called end of days in which he fights the devil himself. It's pretty stupid imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FeelHappy Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 Since you mentioned Hitler, I have to think that a substantial number of Jews suffered more under his rule than Jesus ever dreamed of suffering. Back to the insanity of hell, assume that you gave Hitler 100 years of torment for each jew that died under his rule, say something like 6 billion years, now that might even be excessive for such a worthless individual such as him, but that number is just the beginning of eternity. The odd part is elohim commands an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth in the old testament whereas he doesn't hold himself to the same standards. I think hell is the reason why no one should be a christian, not the reason to be. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcdaddy Posted March 7, 2012 Author Share Posted March 7, 2012 Well, because Jesus Christ was sinless, He could not suffer in actual hell, as far as the fire. The lake of fire is a spiritual, second death. It has no power over those who are made sinless. This is why death had no power over Jesus. So, when He died on the cross, it was a physical death that He, being sinless, did not deserve in God's Eyes. Hell could not have had any power over Him because He had no sin. In a sense, the fires of hell burn sin. Jesus Says in Revelation that the second death has no power over His saints. Why? Because they inherit His Righteousness. I know what youre saying Jason, but he was supposed to 'take our sins upon him', right?? SO, either he was sinless or not. You keep saying he was sinless, but according to 'cross logic', when he was hanging on the cross all the sins of humanity were placed on him, No? so he DID have sin on him according to the theology, all of humanities' sin. so he would be worthy to be in hell since he had the totality of man's sin on him. If he was sinless as you said, then he didnt take anyones sin upon him, and the cross was worthless. And whats the sacrifice of dying a 6 hour (albeit tortuous) death, if in 3 days you're going to be made V.P. of the freaking universe?? who WOULDN'T do that? seems like a no brainer to me! If you say that him dying a human death was payment for sins or whatever, well, we all die a human death don't we? So whats the big deal about that? If Jesus "really" paid our "sin debt", he'd be in hell forever, not co-ruling the universe. If death was the payment, resurrection nullified that payment. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akheia Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 It always amazes me, the contortions believers will perform in order to make sense out of something that intrinsically makes no sense at all. I used to do that too, but even now it amazes me that my mind was capable of holding such bizarre Martian logic together. Jasonother, even aside from the obvious and glaring issues with the idea that a 2-day slap on the wrist equals all of humanity's sins (which you by no means managed to reconcile with that cosmic Twister game you're playing in your head), you're still dealing with a deity who set up a moral system and universe in which his own lust for blood and vengeance could only be slaked by human sacrifice. He could just as easily have made a system that didn't require blood atonement, but he didn't. Don't you wonder why? Don't you ever skirt the very edge of the dangerous thought that maybe God's moral system isn't quite so moral-sounding? It all makes ten times more sense if one just considers the whole system as having been made up out of whole cloth by humans with primitive, unevolved moral judgment. We've grown way past thinking it's okay for the innocent to be punished for the crimes of the guilty; even a child can see that the entire idea is barbaric. Come join us in the 21st century. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FeelHappy Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 The reason for Jesus's death, his divinity or lack there of, his humanity or lack there of, ect has baffled believers from the beginning of the church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akheia Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 BUT NOT JASONOTHER. No, he has it alllll worked out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 So, when He died on the cross, it was a physical death that He, being sinless, did not deserve in God's Eyes. You could just as easily say that him being sinless, he did not deserve hell in God's Eyes. Whats the difference between being sinless and dying a physical death and being sinless and burning in hell for eternity. You are saying because he was sinless he could not suffer in hell for us, yet sinless he was as he suffered on the cross? That makes no sense. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 So, when He died on the cross, it was a physical death that He, being sinless, did not deserve in God's Eyes. You could just as easily say that him being sinless, he did not deserve hell in God's Eyes. Whats the difference between being sinless and dying a physical death and being sinless and burning in hell for eternity. You are saying because he was sinless he could not suffer in hell for us, yet sinless he was as he suffered on the cross? That makes no sense. The whole thing is absurd. The assumption is that humans are born as mindless sin bots. We have no choice but to sin. We can't do anything else. But it that were true no reasonable being could blame us. It is the way we are. So along comes God who is a man who isn't a sin bot. And we are suppose to believe that this God-man is just like us and experiencing life like us? If he isn't a sin bot then he is not one of us and not like us. And how does a human sacrifice atone to God for us being born unable to avoid sinning? Now suddenly we are no longer sin-bots if we say a prayer? It's a multi-bind of nonsense. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FeelHappy Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 I was thinking if tradition is right Peter when he was hung upside on a cross suffered as much as jesus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 The assumption is that humans are born as mindless sin bots. We have no choice but to sin. We can't do anything else. But it that were true no reasonable being could blame us. It is the way we are. This is another great point. If we cannot help but sin, why punish us for it? Least of all punish most of us for all eternity? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leith Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 Well, because Jesus Christ was sinless, He could not suffer in actual hell, as far as the fire. The lake of fire is a spiritual, second death. It has no power over those who are made sinless. This is why death had no power over Jesus. So, when He died on the cross, it was a physical death that He, being sinless, did not deserve in God's Eyes. Hell could not have had any power over Him because He had no sin. In a sense, the fires of hell burn sin. Jesus Says in Revelation that the second death has no power over His saints. Why? Because they inherit His Righteousness. Hmmm, let's see. A few hours of torture, a few hours of "not really suffering in hell", and then an eternity in heaven being worshipped as the saviour of mankind and eating unlimited lasagna without ever getting full. How is that even a sacrifice? I would do that any day! So would everyone on this planet! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cryptic Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 Isn't the point of a sacrfice to be able to do "without" something? What can God (Jesus) give up that he doesn't need? Not to mention, if he took the penalty of sin, why is there still sin in the world? It seems like he died for nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onyx Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 To truly make his sacrifice meaningful, Jesus would need: * To be tortured ... forever. * To give up his godhood forever and die like a man ... forever. * Suffer for a few months in Hell (think Christopher Hitchens' waterboarding) then denounce and abolish it ... forever. * Die to abolish sin, death and hell ... FOREVER. No need for Revelation. If I was a theologian, if I had to explain the death and sacrifice of Jesus as it stands now, a mess of mistranslations and wanton human-made sadism then I would explain it away as: * Jesus has quantumic immortality. He is tortured temporarily but from a perspective, for a few seconds there is eternity. A few seconds has eternity, any lash of flame onto skin is stuck forever for a few momemnts in time and also in a lack of time thereof. * Jesus had a decoy. * Jesus took a cue from the old pagan deities; being similar to a certain Egyptian god ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 Isn't the point of a sacrfice to be able to do "without" something? What can God (Jesus) give up that he doesn't need? Not to mention, if he took the penalty of sin, why is there still sin in the world? It seems like he died for nothing. In the old days us mortals would sacrifice to please the gods. We would take something valuable to us and kill or destroy it. Why did this please the gods? Could it prove human devotion to them? I am more faithful to you than my love for whatever this thing I kill?And why would a god sacrifice something? The god doesn't need to prove anything. What is the point of a god sacrificing anything? I don't see the point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LivingLife Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 Well, because Jesus Christ was sinless, He could not suffer in actual hell, as far as the fire. The lake of fire is a spiritual, second death. It has no power over those who are made sinless. This is why death had no power over Jesus. So, when He died on the cross, it was a physical death that He, being sinless, did not deserve in God's Eyes. Hell could not have had any power over Him because He had no sin. In a sense, the fires of hell burn sin. Jesus Says in Revelation that the second death has no power over His saints. Why? Because they inherit His Righteousness. Err no, he was not sinless. He broke two laws worthy of the death penalty assuming anything in the babble is more than just fiction.But b/c he was raised from the dead he did not actually die for anyone's sins hence the need for continual penance and sucking up post conversion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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