Hi My Name Is Aaron And Im A Christian How Are You Today/nite/morning/afternoon?

[sdelsolray]

thanks Larry for your name and introduction, i am on break at work, i often dont have time to respond to all, only in general, but i will try to do a bit better, but i need the physical time to do so, Thanks for the one who gives me the benefit of the doubt, i am a genuine person looking for answers, and trying to understand but i cannot do that without knowing what the other side thinks. so when im not on m break i will try to answer a few questions. I will say this,...lets say for example a childs father tells the child the stove is hot, they child believs at first, but when the father leaves, he tests it out for himself and finds out it really is hot, as his father says, then one day an heat and stove expert comes in and tells the child, he lil dude, this stove is not Hot...The child says, Sir....i dotn care what degree you have i dont belive the stove is hot i KNOW its hot. This si the way i feel about my Faith i know what my Father(God) says and so i wont be shaken by skeptics.

 

You "feel" you "know". You "won't be shaken by skeptics".

 

Cognitive dissonance is your friend.

[darwinfish]

To answer your first question I am fine. How are you?

 

 

Who is Moral? What is right and wrong?

 

God Made us so he Wrote the Law on our Hearts Bible says this in Romans 2 :15 " They Demonstrate that Gods Law is written on their hearts for their own thoughts either accuse them, or tell them they are doing right"

 

This is a great question. And, I think exploring this question can lead to some very interesting conversation. However, instead of exploring this conversation, you seem to have jumped to a conclusion based on a book written thousand of years ago. So, your first dogmatic claim, "God Made us ..." I would challenge. Could you please provide evidence as to why I should accept the existence of this God?

 

The second part, "...Bible says ...", could you please provide evidence as to why this ancient book should have any relevance to reality, and isn't just the make believe musings of an ancient culture?

 

If you answer these two questions, I will be more than happy to discuss how such a thing as morals exist in our society. But, if your planning on discussing the moral argument for God, and I assume that is truly what your trying to get at by claiming a universal law, then I suggest you read up on the moral arguments. Here's a like to get you started: http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/theism/moral.html

 

Welcome to the website. I know you will be "attacked" for making dogmatic claims without providing evidence for those claims. You can avoid this by trying to demonstrate the evidence for the claims before making the dogmatic claims. And, to help you out, quoting Bible verses isn't going to count as evidence. You will be asked to provide demonstrable evidence. I can quote ancient books all day, but unless there's factual evidence to talk about it's just wild musings.

 

I do hope that you are willing to hang. I, like you, made a lot of dogmatic claims without evidence because I knew that God exists. And, all I wanted to do was show that to those around me. God saved me, and I figured, if I would be willing to engage others, I could lead them to God as well. My deconversion happened as a result of applying logic and reason to my faith. Of course, like you, I believed my faith was reasonable.

 

You like Bible verses? 1 Peter 3:15, "But in your hearts rever Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect,"

 

Applying reason to my faith lead me out of Christianity, and I believe if you are sincere in understanding these arguments, it will lead you out as well. Take care, and welcome to the forums.

[mymistake]

So, your first dogmatic claim, "God Made us ..." I would challenge. Could you please provide evidence as to why I should accept the existence of this God?

 

The second part, "...Bible says ...", could you please provide evidence as to why this ancient book should have any relevance to reality, and isn't just the make believe musings of an ancient culture?

 

You are off to a good start but if I can make one suggestion you need to qualify the kind of evidence you want. I've noticed over the years that Christians provide subjective evidence. It's questionable events or emotions that could support any religion. (example "I prayed to Odin that it wouldn't rain and then it didn't rain so Odin must be real" or "Believing in Odin gives me a warm feeling so Odin must be real.") If you just ask for evidence the typical Christian will give you Bible verses.

 

I do hope that you are willing to hang. I, like you, made a lot of dogmatic claims without evidence because I knew that God exists. And, all I wanted to do was show that to those around me. God saved me, and I figured, if I would be willing to engage others, I could lead them to God as well. My deconversion happened as a result of applying logic and reason to my faith. Of course, like you, I believed my faith was reasonable.

 

That is what killed my faith in the Bible.

[Suzy]

Some Biblical morals:

 

10 When you go to war against your enemies and the LORD your God delivers them into your hands and you take captives, 11 if you notice among the captives a beautiful woman and are attracted to her, you may take her as your wife. 12 Bring her into your home and have her shave her head, trim her nails 13 and put aside the clothes she was wearing when captured. After she has lived in your house and mourned her father and mother for a full month, then you may go to her and be her husband and she shall be your wife. 14 If you are not pleased with her, let her go wherever she wishes. You must not sell her or treat her as a slave, since you have dishonored her.

Deuteronomy 21:10-14

 

Notice how nothing is said about the woman's opinion about this marriage. It seems she doesn't have a say in any of this. It's unlikely that many women would gladly marry a guy from the very same people who just massacred their families. So it's highly likely that the above described situation would be a forced marriage in most cases.

 

So the guy (Israelite, of course) can take this woman as his wife (regardless of how she feels) and if he is displeased with her, he can kick her out! There go the modern myth about the oh, so high Judeo-Christian family values! Oh, but God is great because she cannot be sold as a slave. Hallelujah! But just imagine what chances in life a woman like that would have after she's been "dishonoured".

 

28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay her father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.

Deuteronomy 22:28-29

 

So not only rape is only a minor crime that deserves only a fine as a punishment, but the poor victim even has to marry her raper and live with him for life! I guess it would be a good way for guys to get a woman who doesn't care about them to still marry them. Just rape her and she's yours!

 

So while a guy can rape a woman and get away with a fine, a girl must die if she doesn't marry as a virgin:

 

13 If a man takes a wife and, after sleeping with her, dislikes her 14 and slanders her and gives her a bad name, saying, “I married this woman, but when I approached her, I did not find proof of her virginity,” 15 then the young woman’s father and mother shall bring to the town elders at the gate proof that she was a virgin. 16 Her father will say to the elders, “I gave my daughter in marriage to this man, but he dislikes her. 17 Now he has slandered her and said, ‘I did not find your daughter to be a virgin.’ But here is the proof of my daughter’s virginity.” Then her parents shall display the cloth before the elders of the town, 18 and the elders shall take the man and punish him. 19 They shall fine him a hundred shekels[a] of silver and give them to the young woman’s father, because this man has given an Israelite virgin a bad name. She shall continue to be his wife; he must not divorce her as long as he lives. 20 If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the young woman’s virginity can be found, 21 she shall be brought to the door of her father’s house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done an outrageous thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father’s house. You must purge the evil from among you.

Deuteronomy 22:13-21

 

It's OK to kill young men just for mocking his prophet as "baldy":

 

23 From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some boys came out of the town and jeered at him. “Get out of here, baldy!” they said. “Get out of here, baldy!” 24 He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the LORD. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the boys. 25 And he went on to Mount Carmel and from there returned to Samaria.

2 Kings 2:23-25

 

Women are inferior even according to the New Testament:

 

34 Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. 35 If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.

1 Corinthians 14:34-35

 

9 I also want the women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, adorning themselves, not with elaborate hairstyles or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, 10 but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.

 

11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.

1 Timothy 2:9-12

 

The New Testament introduces the concept of "mind crimes". You should rather self-mutilate than to commit those!

 

27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

 

Matthew 5:27-30

 

8 If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. 9 And if your eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.

Matthew 18:8-9

 

Again some Christian family values: those who leave their wives and children for Jesus are promised bigger reward in heaven!

 

29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife[a] or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life.

Matthew 19:29

 

But gay marriage is so, so wrong, right?

 

Polygamy is not prohibited in the Bible. In fact, in the Old Testament several "men of God" have more wives. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David - Solomon as many as 700 wives and 300 concubines! Sure all those marriages were based on mutual respect, love and not just sex and propagation. Actually that is the Biblical model of marriage and not what is often parrotted by Christians today, ie. "one man and one woman"!

 

And if you are about to say "that was OT, the NT is different", well, the NT doesn't prohibit polygamy either. The only place where it's mentioned is 1 Timothy 3:2 which says:

 

"2A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;"

 

So a bishop must be the husband of one wife, but for anybody else it's OK to have several? The NT doesn't say it's not.

[Suzy]

Human sacrifice sanctioned by God:

 

30 And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD: “If you give the Ammonites into my hands, 31 whatever comes out of the door of my house to meet me when I return in triumph from the Ammonites will be the LORD’s, and I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering.”

 

32 Then Jephthah went over to fight the Ammonites, and the LORD gave them into his hands. 33 He devastated twenty towns from Aroer to the vicinity of Minnith, as far as Abel Keramim. Thus Israel subdued Ammon.

 

34 When Jephthah returned to his home in Mizpah, who should come out to meet him but his daughter, dancing to the sound of timbrels! She was an only child. Except for her he had neither son nor daughter. 35 When he saw her, he tore his clothes and cried, “Oh no, my daughter! You have brought me down and I am devastated. I have made a vow to the LORD that I cannot break.”

 

36 “My father,” she replied, “you have given your word to the LORD. Do to me just as you promised, now that the LORD has avenged you of your enemies, the Ammonites. 37 But grant me this one request,” she said. “Give me two months to roam the hills and weep with my friends, because I will never marry.”

 

38 “You may go,” he said. And he let her go for two months. She and her friends went into the hills and wept because she would never marry. 39 After the two months, she returned to her father, and he did to her as he had vowed. And she was a virgin.

 

From this comes the Israelite tradition 40 that each year the young women of Israel go out for four days to commemorate the daughter of Jephthah the Gileadite.

 

So the poor fellow wants to please God and what does God do? He makes Jephthah's only daughter to come out of his door first. God has a morbid sense of humour...

 

Rape sanctioned and directly caused(!) by God:

 

Lo, a day shall come for the Lord when the spoils shall be divided in your midst. And I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle: the city shall be taken, houses plundered, women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be removed from the city.

 

Zechariah 14:1-2

 

And I could go on and on and on...

 

The bottom line is: this God is an immoral monster, how could he be the source of good morals?

[mymistake]

Human sacrifice sanctioned by God:

 

30 And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD: “If you give the Ammonites into my hands, 31 whatever comes out of the door of my house to meet me when I return in triumph from the Ammonites will be the LORD’s, and I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering.”

 

32 Then Jephthah went over to fight the Ammonites, and the LORD gave them into his hands. 33 He devastated twenty towns from Aroer to the vicinity of Minnith, as far as Abel Keramim. Thus Israel subdued Ammon.

 

34 When Jephthah returned to his home in Mizpah, who should come out to meet him but his daughter, dancing to the sound of timbrels! She was an only child. Except for her he had neither son nor daughter. 35 When he saw her, he tore his clothes and cried, “Oh no, my daughter! You have brought me down and I am devastated. I have made a vow to the LORD that I cannot break.”

 

36 “My father,” she replied, “you have given your word to the LORD. Do to me just as you promised, now that the LORD has avenged you of your enemies, the Ammonites. 37 But grant me this one request,” she said. “Give me two months to roam the hills and weep with my friends, because I will never marry.”

 

38 “You may go,” he said. And he let her go for two months. She and her friends went into the hills and wept because she would never marry. 39 After the two months, she returned to her father, and he did to her as he had vowed. And she was a virgin.

 

From this comes the Israelite tradition 40 that each year the young women of Israel go out for four days to commemorate the daughter of Jephthah the Gileadite.

 

So the poor fellow wants to please God and what does God do? He makes Jephthah's only daughter to come out of his door first. God has a morbid sense of humour...

 

[FeelHappy]

The common apologetic for the horrendous old testament commands is that they morally superior to the surrounding cultures. With the way creationists cherry pick facts, I don't know if this is true or not. but I can say that in today's age they're hideous (ie. killing children for talking back to a parent..). What seems more likely: god was immoral by today's standards because he was more moral by the ancient Israeli standards, or that the bible was written by men in an ancient culture with the assumption that their tribal deity was the correct one. The scientific errors and contractions in the bible sure make far more sense when you look at it in the ancient near east culture and not as divinely inspired.

[Tealeaf]

Hi i want to make it personal, Again my name is Aaron, i will be participating on this site for the long Haul, i hope to learn and grow in my christian faith, and i hope to Learn and Grow in different theology and perspectives, and understand the view of the world and of the unsaved.

 

This "unsaved" bullshit already shows you've been thoroughly duped into the Christian cult "us vs. them" mentality. Has it not occured to you that your religion/cult is NOT universal truth (or even remotley appraoching it) just like you think every other religion is not?

 

Christians dont always take the best approach in dealing with the Unsaved and so they get attacked, but that will happen either way regardless of approach, we will get attacked even if we agree with an unsaved person. However Christians, as do myself need to be respectful in our approaches, and if i have not i apologize, i want to Learn how to approach people even though believing something different but seeing the other side as well. When we really think about it, we are all more alike than different. We must seek to understand before we are understood i believe that is the appropriate thing to do when discussing things with the unsaved and vise verse. But Then again who am i to say what is appropriate and what is not? This brings me to my Topic.

 

Your ("their") approach is shit because it is arrogant, self-centred, and full of nonsense. When you say "different" you don't actually account for all the differences in the world. You account for the load of ancient dogma and superstition you have aligned yourself with.....and "the rest" or "the World" (speaking in braindead shallow evangelical/Pentecostal/etc. terms). Perhaps, in the future, if you want an honest discussion, you don't divide people based on whether or not they subscribe to your particular ancient cult.

 

 

Who is Moral? What is right and wrong?

 

God Made us so he Wrote the Law on our Hearts Bible says this in Romans 2 :15 " They Demonstrate that Gods Law is written on their hearts for their own thoughts either accuse them, or tell them they are doing right"

 

You quote your cult's handbook as if it has anything to do with my life, here and now....

 

Have you actually read the whole bible? Do you realise how much evil nonsensical bullshit there is contained in it? Or are you going to continue defending it in standard bubble-thought cult fashion....

 

Everytime we dispute right and wrong we appeal to a higher law that we assume everyone is aware of, holds on to and not free to individually change this universal law so that everyone else can follow their personal view of it. Every Law has a Law Giver, we all know there is a Moral law, then obviously there is a Moral Law Giver. right? Who said we should help people? is that a universal Moral obligation? who or what woman/man made that obligation then? Even the most remote tribes cut off from civilization observe a moral Code similar to someone else's there may be differences in civil matters but bravery, loyalty, greed etc are universal, if man invented this moral law or code then it would be differ as much as every other thing man has invented and it would no longer be universal but it IS universal so if what someone believes does hold tru to what we know already exits, it should be discarded.

 

You may pretend to appeal to a higher law, but I don't. And if it came down to it, I bet you wouldn't either. Like if say....you were ordered to switch on the gas in a chamber full of unarmed civilians who had commited absolutley no crime against you. You would probably hesitate. But then again, maybe you would do it.... Because a 'higher power' said to. And you could perhaps try and take comfort in that. You know, like all the rape, murder, and, genocide in the bible ordered by the character "god" whom it pleased. Those pawns never had to feel bad....it was all their god's will.

 

We all know whats absolutely wrong, then is there an absolute standard of righteousness. Without this objective standard, any objection is your personal opinion. Granted the unsaved don't need to believe in God to discern moral duties or understand that objective morals values exist but in order to ground an objective moral law, then you need to have a Transcendant source of those Values, because universal Moral law transcends humanity, and because a law requires a law giver, then the universal law requires a universal law giver and guess who that is?

 

I envision a dog chasing it's tale while observing your "reasoning."

Your whole "argument" revolves around coming to the conclusion that *your* or even *some* god must exist. This is pure bullshit. Ignorant, lazy, simplistic, selfish, cult-like bullshit. And just because you're probably too spacey up there in the mind at this time to appreciate a logical response.... I'll appeal to your lovey-dubby cult-receptors you have agonised at full throtle with the faithamphetamine....

 

I am not like most on this site. I come here because because after my life experiences with religious/cult people, the posters here give me hope for the species I have no choice but to be a part of. I have never been religious, or involved in any of this indoctrinated bullshit.

 

How do you explain me? I've wronged people less than just about anyone I know. I don't fight poeple. I don't hate people. I live peacefully and as fairly as I can.

I'm 22 years old and I've donated my blood (my literal fucking LIFE) 29 times as of writing this. Nothing in return; a cookie or can of Coke sometimes. I think that the people who annoymously get this blood and it's products greatly appreciate it.

 

Remember, ATHEIST by default since birth here. I only learned of the term 'atheist' when I realized people actually believed in religion and had to identify somehow that I did not. I thought it was just a joke on The Simpsons for quite a while.

 

It's no mystery why I do this, if you actually learn something about human nature and evolution.

 

How do you explain this?

 

And if you want to say it's because I'm somehow influenced by your ancient tribal cult's god.... I must politely suggest that you go fuck yourself.

 

Oh, funny thing too. I believe it's.. Acts 15ish.. that forbids 'blood sacrifices'.... And I've seen many a dull-minded cult/religion member go by this (without actually reading it themselves) as an objection to blood donation. Like.... Fuck

[par4dcourse]

Ok Aaron. Let's give you the benefit of the doubt and say that you are here for "discussion." That entails an exchange of ideals.

So what would make you change your mindset?

 

That's what I thought. A one sided discussion is just preaching.

[jackbauer]

As many have said, Biblical morality is flawed, extremely flawed. I think a basic moral code would be "do unto others as you would have done to you". Many of the things which are considered sins do not hurt anyone and are just natural human behavior. Sex, for instance, does not hurt anyone. If it's between two consenting adults, it's no one elses business. Why does god care how people have sex? Doesn't he have more important things to worry about? Then there's all the thought and emotion sins. If you feel pride, coveat your neighbors wife, or want something more of life, you're a sinner. None of this stuff we can help, but because of this, we are automatically condemned to ETERNAL torment.

 

I've started a thread on that very issue. http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/50047-i-do-not-deserve-hell/

 

And yes, it does cover the issues of Adam and Eve, and Jesus's atonement. I think threatening people with hell is far more immoral than most of the behavoirs condemned as "sins". It's such a horrific concept that if you read some of the testimonials, you'll see it has caused much unnecessary terror among people. This is a good example of one. http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/11231-confessions-of-an-ex-catholic-girl/

 

There is simply no reason for such a horrible punishment other than to satisfy god's vengence.

[agnosticator]

Christians dont always take the best approach in dealing with the Unsaved and so they get attacked,

 

Hold on! We are apostates according to the N.T. We are not the "unsaved".

 

<SNIPPED> to save bandwidth

We all know whats absolutely wrong, then is there an absolute standard of righteousness. Without this objective standard, any objection is your personal opinion. Granted the unsaved don't need to believe in God to discern moral duties or understand that objective morals values exist but in order to ground an objective moral law, then you need to have a Transcendant source of those Values, because universal Moral law transcends humanity, and because a law requires a law giver, then the universal law requires a universal law giver and guess who that is?

 

Oh, you've been reading too much William L. Craig! There are no objective, transcendent, laws or standards. There was a long thread that covers this very subject. LNC, who was an intelligent disciple of W.L. Craig, defended your argument. The Bible's morality is relativistic, in that it changed over time just like Christian morality changed over time. It's proof that the Biblegod's morals either changed or good Christians left His crude and cruel morality in the dust. Unless you believe in slavery!

 

The only objective standard we have is ourselves. The human being has needs that must be met to live. Humans are social animals. Human health and well-being are the basis of morality. Whatever is within the universe is relevant to morals. "Anything" outside the universe is irrelevant.

 

P.S. I have yet to read this thread, so that's all for now...

[agnosticator]

Overcame Faith said:

Human beings are animals, too, and we, like them, have a genetic incoding that, to a degree perhaps larger than we like to admit, has much to do with our behavior that we call morality.

 

Tealeaf said:

How do you explain me? I've wronged people less than just about anyone I know. I don't fight poeple. I don't hate people. I live peacefully and as fairly as I can.......It's no mystery why I do this, if you actually learn something about human nature and evolution

 

Yes, please explain how the above quotes cannot be the reason why humans and animals possess morality.

[bdp]

I never connected LNC to intelligence.

[Kurari]

Hello Aaron and welcome!

 

As far as universal law, what im saying is...if there is a universal moral code that everyone knows, such as respect, loyalty, bravery. Even drug dealers respect other dealers, and terrorist show loyalty to other terrorists, But where did they learn these moral traits? Romans 2:15 says it was written on our hearts.

 

Drug dealers do not show respect, loyalty, and bravery to each other. They have a hierarchy and FEAR each other. If they can get way with making someone else take the fall for them, they will do it. I actually work for the courts. I see this over and over again. They'd sell each other out for a Klondike bar.

 

Most people who are in the prison system have some form of psychopathy, which is something they were born with. Your guess is as good as mine why God would create infants without the innate ability to understand right and wrong. Most of them are Christians too. No amount of prayer will correct the imbalances in their brain.

 

God is a moral failure.

 

 

The slavery in the bible was not based exclusively on race, nationality or skin color. In bible times slavery was more a matter of social status, People sold themselves as slaves when they could not pay their debts or proved for their families to have their needs provided for. Further more the bible Outlines principles in which they were to be treated, fairly, fed well and given what they needed. NOT the definition of slavery as it is today or what most think where is Lack of food and no respect and no fairness.

 

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

 

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

 

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)

 

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

 

The Bible is VERY clear on this.

 

You can sell your own children into slavery.

 

People will not be freed because they have ovaries instead of testicles.

 

Anybody not Hebrew will not have a chance at freedom. They are slaves forever and so are their families.

 

You can rape and beat your slaves. If you kill them, well, you'll be punished, but oh well. Too bad for the slave who was beaten to death. If they survive being beaten to death for a couple of days before dying from their injuries, there will be no punishments. If they survive they get to live to see more beatings.

 

This is NOT treating anybody well or fairly.

 

There is no justification for this. Slavery in any form, no matter how well a slave may be treated, is intolerable. It's SICK watching Christians twist themselves into knots trying to justify this, but there is no way they possibly can.

 

I would rather follow a morality based on hard truths about the history of slavery than the Bible because it is the only TRUE morality there is. The Bible is a terrible moral compass.

[Serendipity Rose]

Hi Aaron, it's nice to meet you. Interestingly enough pretty much every person on this site was where you are today in their belief system, to some extent. It's good that you came here to ask questions.

 

 

Morality comes from our own selfish need to take care of ourselves. It's mythology that confuses and threatens us if we don't believe the myth that causes us to hurt others. It is unnatural and unhealthy for us to not question where morality truly comes from. A person who questions, searches much deeper for the meaning of their life than a person who listens to someone who tells him not to seek truth, but instead believe only an ancient text that tells incredulous stories that lead so many people away from our natural morality.

 

Why is morality selfish? I can tell you from my standpoint as a mother of three wonderful young men. It has been my job, my instinct, to protect, teach, and then allow them to go out on their own to practice what I helped them to learn. Should I have chosen to distance myself from those around me I would not have the support of family and friends to help me along the way. There is no jealousy over what others have that could have prevented me from being the best mom I ever could be. I didn't do it for someone else. I didn't even do it only for my sons. I did it for me.

 

The same is true for each of us. The reason that we do not strive to do the best we can be or do is when we become confused and lose confidence in ourselves. We lose confidence because we give up our own responsibility for our actions to to some so-called higher power.

 

We are only moral when we take responsibility for our own actions.

 

The points that you have made are interesting, but they are all just talking points that you have learned from listening and reading from a very limited selection. It's good that you are here. It shows that you are ready to search deeper than the surface of life's questions that you have previously encountered. Try learning about other religions first. Why do you suppose there are so many different religions? Could it be that all religions worship the same God? Why does God answer the prayers of Tim Tebow but not the child who is being raped or abused by an adult, or worse, a minister or priest?

 

I wish you well in your journey of inquisition.

[Xerces]

I can't respond to these kind of threads anymore without the urge to be ridiculously rude. I'll say this though, one of my best friends is named Aaron and he is religious, and he believes in an alien demon conspiracy. But I don't care, because he is my friend. The thing that is different about him is that he doesn't feel like he needs to go out and convert people to his belief system. I was a "christian" for YEARS. Not out of choice. I was indoctrinated, isolated, and strictly home schooled. So I know a thing or two about your religion. And I really don't give a flying fuck what you set out to accomplish at Ex-C, but you already have an enemy, and you'll make many more as long as you continue to be an evangelical.

[bronxo]

Hi Troll

[CatholiKitty]

My apologies, i am in no way purposely trying to condemn or belittle anyone, i simply did not know that Atheists didn't like to be called that, im new to this thing, i genuinely want respectful communication, i understand there is a bad rep here Christians so its natural for me to get attacked, that i dont mind, it helps my Faith in God because it requires me to search deeper and harder for truth.

 

Good day to you, Aaron. I'm doing fine and you can call me CK or Kitty, whichever you prefer.

 

I would like to tell you that I am a Christian, I am active on this site, and I have not been attacked because of my faith. Except for one or two instances, I have felt nothing less than cautiously accepted. The reason that people react with hostility for you is not because you are a Christian, but because your posts tend to go against the one purpose of this site: Encouraging de-converting and former Christians

 

Maybe you really have no intentions of trying to convert the people here. Maybe all you really want is to have an honest theological discussion and you don't know where you went wrong. If such is the case, please allow me to point out some of the things I've noticed that may be giving others a bad impression of you.

 

1) Quoting Scripture: This is a HUGE and easily recognizable red flag. The people on this site are former Christians. They know the book and the language and the theology, and most of them probably know it as well, if not better, as you do. They have rejected it anyways, and many times they rejected it because they took a good, deep look into the bible. To the people here, the most constructive use for the printed Word is Papier-mâché.

 

2) Condescending Tone: This is mostly a problem in your OP (original post). You begin by assuming you're right and then use a series of 'questions' to lead people down a string of flimsy reasoning and word play. You are not presenting an idea and asking if people have ideas or opinions about it; you are actively trying to convince them that you're right and they are wrong. If you want to have a fun and interesting discussion, read up on how to use more formal "P implies Q" style logic.

"[...]then the universal law requires a universal law giver and guess who that is?" Without getting into why I disagree with this general reasoning, this was a terrible way to end your OP. This wording is what you would use to teach a child; the people here are not children.

"As far as universal law, what im saying is...if there is a universal moral code that everyone knows[..]" This is a great statement. Declaring specific items that you want to address and using "if" statements show that you're thinking deeper into things and not just on rails towards the conclusion that you want there to be.

 

3) Your Reasoning: I find fault with it, and so do others. It would take a whole other post for me to address the specifics of what I don't like about it, but it's really just small things that snowball into larger effects. This thing is just a matter of practice, so keep posting, listening, and thinking then you're sure to get better at it.

 

4) Your Grammar: It may seem petty for me to list this, but in the world of online forums, grammar is your non-verbal communication, your body language. Reading something that's poorly written is like listening to someone who keeps slouching, mumbling, and avoiding eye-contact; it's hard to understand and a bit hard to even care what he's saying. I don't mean to insult you, really. Your grammar isn't that bad, but if you start capitalizing your "I"s, stop capitalizing things that aren't proper nouns, and begin using apostrophes in your contractions, then readers will respect you more without even realizing it. If you want to go pro, get a grammar book and read up on the rules for comma use.

 

I hope that my post has been more helpful and informative than insulting to you. Welcome to the site.

[Overcame Faith]

CK's post above is one of the better posts I have seen from a Christian on this site. What he says is true and that's why I gave him a +1 for it. His example is a very good one. Rather than throwing his religion in our faces and assuming we're all a bunch of ignorant slobs who if we were only shown the way we'd come running back to Jesus, he has offered to share both his own personal views on Christian matters and the Catholic perspective. The posts have been both informative and respectful. He is, in my view, a very good Christian example on a board of this nature.

[lyall]

Hiya Destiny,

 

When I realised that everything I believed was based on what I wanted to be true and not necessarily on reality I came here to see if anyone else felt the same way. Now i am learning how to remain an ex-christian and to loyally stay out of the faith by paying attention to my thought life and not letting the "enemy" convince me of absurdities such as god answering prayer when it takes his fancy and making the sun shine when we have a picnic even though hundreds of christians lose their homes on the other side of the world due to flooding. Ya know... those embarrassing little imbalances that we have to explain away to enquirers.

 

If you get fed up doing god's job for him how about you join me on this narrow and cramped little way back to sanity?

 

Lyall

[agnosticator]

I never connected LNC to intelligence.

 

My first reaction was uncontrollable laughter! That's funny! When I calmed down, I thought about why I said what I said. I still think he's intelligent, BUT he didn't use his intellect on his blind spots and he totally bought into W.L. Craig's dishonest oxymoron of "reasonable faith". He also purposely evaded, ignored posts, and was consciously dishonest with us. But he was no dummkopf

[Destinyjesus3000]

ok you can put away your buckets now you dont have to cry any more im back : ) sorry nothing wrong with lighting the mood right? i know my spelling is horrible, and i may not be the sharpest tool in the shed but i am the strongest. You guys should be lawyers, taking all of my theories to the slaughterhouse, blasting away my logic with your intellectual shotguns. Gets me wondering ya know, im young man, if you cant beat might as well join EM! hehe....give me a bit, im actually getting married this year and wedding planning has been heavy this week. Im only on page two backtracking trying to catch up and comment on things, when i get the chance i will respond to as much as i can. Take care everyone, please have a good day, and remember, you cant start a new chapter in your life if you keep reading the last one, vision with without action is a waste of time, action with no vision is a waste of time, but action with a vision together...can changed the world.

[London]

and remember, you cant start a new chapter in your life if you keep reading the last one,

 

Good words young man, now put down that bible and grow into the real world.

[Destinyjesus3000]

heh thanks for the advice bro, i got another one "Those without a vision will always return to the past" or "those with a bad attitude are like a flat tire, unless you change it, you wont go anywhere"

[mymistake]

ok you can put away your buckets now you dont have to cry any more im back : ) sorry nothing wrong with lighting the mood right? i know my spelling is horrible, and i may not be the sharpest tool in the shed but i am the strongest. You guys should be lawyers, taking all of my theories to the slaughterhouse, blasting away my logic with your intellectual shotguns. Gets me wondering ya know, im young man, if you cant beat might as well join EM! hehe....give me a bit, im actually getting married this year and wedding planning has been heavy this week. Im only on page two backtracking trying to catch up and comment on things, when i get the chance i will respond to as much as i can. Take care everyone, please have a good day, and remember, you cant start a new chapter in your life if you keep reading the last one, vision with without action is a waste of time, action with no vision is a waste of time, but action with a vision together...can changed the world.

 

Thank you for not trying to convert anybody here today. Good luck with your wedding.