Hi My Name Is Aaron And Im A Christian How Are You Today/nite/morning/afternoon?

[Suzy]

I use the bible as authority because it works. Furthermore i will get in discussion later but the bible has real life people in it, kings, nations, in history books that correspond with some of the things in the bible. Before i disregard the bible, i would have to discredit history. When i catch up on posts i will tap into that part.

 

Many Bible characters are fictional, or at least there is no proof for their existence outside of the Bible. Or if they existed they weren't who the Bible claimed them to be. For example, King Solomon. The Bible claims he was the King of a huge and very important empire (Israel at the time), but interestingly there is no trace of this huge empire in contemporary archeological or historical records (ie. records of other nations which lived in the Middle East at the time) other than the Bible. See: http://www.jesusneve...com/solomon.htm

 

Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses are probably all fictional characters made up hundreds of years after they allegedly lived. There's no proof for their exsistence. One would think if the Exodus had really happened (in which, remember, allegedly the Pharao and all his troops were killed!) we would find lots of things about that in ancient Egyptian records. But nothing!

 

And then there's Jesus. There's no evidence for his existence either. The Bible claims he was this huge miracle worker, raising dead people all the time and the dead raising and walking in Jerusalem after he was resurrected, yet there's no contemporary record of this huge event outside of the Gospels, which were written decades later and not by eyewitnesses. There's simply nothing in either contemporary Roman or Jewish historical records. I personally think there was probably some 1st century cult leader in the centre of this story, but he was just one very regular cult leader (there were many in Palestine at the time!) and later a myth started to be built around him by his followers. Many of the elements of that myth echo the myths of pagan religions at the time, so you know where they were coming from!

 

History contradicts many elements of the Jesus story. Just one example is that it seems Nazareth probably didn't even exist yet at the time: http://www.jesusneve...m/nazareth.html

[FeelHappy]

As for Jesus's existence, what about paul mentioning meeting with the three so called pillars of the church and eyewitnesses to christ's existance, peter, james and john?

 

Not to say that likely most of the new testament is myth and exaggeration with the idea of convincing people Jesus was the messiah, but I always wonder a little when people say he likely didn't exist. That doesn't seem to be a very popular position to take even with secular scholarship.

[MrsRoper]

Do you mean the eyewitness accounts as presented in the NT?

[FeelHappy]

Nope not like the eyewitnesses as presented in the NT. I meant that Paul met Peter, surely if Peter had a spiritual encounter and didn't know Jesus personally Paul would have mentioned that to boost his own version of Christ which he didn't learn from man but from special revelation.

 

I doubt Peter wrote anything, most of the stuff in the NT might very well just be exaggeration and myth (Paul fully admits he learned nothing about Jesus from Peter (Galatians 1:12)), but I really doubt that the person Jesus didn't exist, I believe he was an end time apocalyptic speaker, and when he died, the myth about him spread.

 

Anyways I need to do a search, I'm sure this stuff has been discussed before on this forum and I'm getting way off topic.

[Suzy]

As for Jesus's existence, what about paul mentioning meeting with the three so called pillars of the church and eyewitnesses to christ's existance, peter, james and john?

 

Not to say that likely most of the new testament is myth and exaggeration with the idea of convincing people Jesus was the messiah, but I always wonder a little when people say he likely didn't exist. That doesn't seem to be a very popular position to take even with secular scholarship.

 

If this was directed at me: I didn't say "he likely didn't exist", I said there is no evidence for his existence outside of the Bible which is true.

 

On the other hand in this case we should define first what do we mean by it if we say "Jesus existed". If someone means the Jesus portrayed in the Bible (with miracles, resurrection and all) that Jesus very, very likely never existed. Many elements of the Jesus myth can be found in pagan religions about pagan gods/demi-gods which were popular at the time (and there are some striking similarities!). So those pagan myths are the likely sources of those elements and not reality.

 

One could also say that he believes a Jesus existed who was like the one in the Gospels minus supernatural elements. This Jesus was human with some nice teachings of love and tolerance (and some not so nice teachings), some wise sayings (and some less wise ones), but without miracles and resurrection. And later his followers attached some myths to him and made him God. Well, even this is a dubious claim in this form. Because we know that even some of the non-supernatural stories about Jesus in the Gospels likely never happened - for example, one of the most quoted stories of the Gospels is the story of the woman taken in adultery. However scholars think that it's a later addition to the Gospels since it wasn't in the earliest manuscripts. So can we say the Jesus portrayed in the Gospels - even without miracles - existed? Even this Jesus seems to be a composition of myth and (maybe) some reality and later forgeries.

 

Some think Jesus is a composite of many real characters running around in Palestine at the time and many mythical characters (pagan gods). Doomsday cults were very popular under the Roman oppression. We know about some real Jesuses those existed around that time (Jesus - Yeshua - was a very common name). Some interesting ones:

 

Jesus ben Sirach. This Jesus was reputedly the author of the Book of Sirach (aka 'Ecclesiasticus, or the Wisdom of Jesus the Son of Sirach'), part of Old Testament Apocrypha. Ben Sirach, writing in Greek about 180 BC, brought together Jewish 'wisdom' and Homeric-style heroes.

 

Jesus ben Pandira. A wonder-worker during the reign of Alexander Jannaeus (106-79 BC), one of the most ruthless of the Maccabean kings. Imprudently, this Jesus launched into a career of end-time prophecy and agitation which upset the king. He met his own premature end-time by being hung on a tree – and on the eve of a Passover. Scholars have speculated this Jesus founded the Essene sect.

 

Jesus ben Ananias. Beginning in 62AD, this Jesus had caused disquiet in Jerusalem with a non-stop doom-laden mantra of ‘Woe to the city’. He prophesied rather vaguely:

 

"A voice from the east, a voice from the west, a voice from the four winds, a voice against Jerusalem and the holy house, a voice against the bridegrooms and the brides, and a voice against the whole people."

 

– Josephus, Wars 6.3.

 

 

Arrested and flogged by the Romans, Jesus ben Ananias was released as nothing more dangerous than a mad man. He died during the siege of Jerusalem from a rock hurled by a Roman catapult.

 

Jesus ben Saphat. In the insurrection of 68AD that wrought havoc in Galilee, this Jesus had led the rebels in Tiberias ("the leader of a seditious tumult of mariners and poor people" – Josephus, Life 12.66). When the city was about to fall to Vespasian’s legionaries he fled north to Tarichea on the Sea of Galilee.

 

Jesus ben Gamala. During 68/69 AD this Jesus was a leader of the ‘peace party’ in the civil war wrecking Judaea. From the walls of Jerusalem he had remonstrated with the besieging Idumeans (led by ‘James and John, sons of Susa’). It did him no good. When the Idumeans breached the walls he was put to death and his body thrown to the dogs and carrion birds.

 

Jesus ben Thebuth. A priest who, in the final capitulation of the upper city in 69AD, saved his own skin by surrendering the treasures of the Temple, which included two holy candlesticks, goblets of pure gold, sacred curtains and robes of the high priests. The booty figured prominently in the Triumph held for Vespasian and his son Titus.

 

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/surfeit.htm

 

 

As for the argument of Paul meeting with three apostles. Maybe he did meet them, maybe he didn't. It's not like Paul didn't make up stuff for his purposes. (He himself admits that he uses decite to convert people!) So who knows if this meeting really happened. We can only take Paul's words for it and Paul had his own agenda. Here is the part where he talks about meeting Peter and James:

 

13 For you have heard of my former life in Judaism, how I persecuted the church of God violently and tried to destroy it. 14 And I was advancing in Judaism beyond many of my own age among my people, so extremely zealous was I for the traditions of my fathers. 15 But when he who had set me apart before I was born,[a] and who called me by his grace, 16 was pleased to reveal his Son to me, in order that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with anyone;[c] 17 nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me, but I went away into Arabia, and returned again to Damascus.

 

18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas and remained with him fifteen days. 19 But I saw none of the other apostles except James the Lord's brother. 20 (In what I am writing to you, before God, I do not lie!) 21 Then I went into the regions of Syria and Cilicia. 22 And I was still unknown in person to the churches of Judea that are in Christ. 23 They only were hearing it said, “He who used to persecute us is now preaching the faith he once tried to destroy.” 24 And they glorified God because of me.

 

 

(Gal. 1:13-28)

 

Perhaps he is just throwing in the names of Peter (Cephas) and James to claim some credibility for himself. I find it interesting that he feels the need to emphasize he doesn't lie, when he talks about meeting them. Perhaps some questioned the credibility of his claims even back then?

[mymistake]

Nope not like the eyewitnesses as presented in the NT. I meant that Paul met Peter, surely if Peter had a spiritual encounter and didn't know Jesus personally Paul would have mentioned that to boost his own version of Christ which he didn't learn from man but from special revelation.

 

And of course "from special revelation" is a fancy way of saying "made it up". Good point about Peter. Paul didn't get along with the apostles. That is why Paul mocked them and urged his followers to ignore these people preaching a different gospel. The half or so letters of Paul that Paul actually wrote are probably the oldest parts of the New Testament.

 

I doubt Peter wrote anything, most of the stuff in the NT might very well just be exaggeration and myth (Paul fully admits he learned nothing about Jesus from Peter (Galatians 1:12)), but I really doubt that the person Jesus didn't exist, I believe he was an end time apocalyptic speaker, and when he died, the myth about him spread.

 

Yes this great fish story probably started with a minnow who was too small for historians of his day to keep.

[lyall]

Thou shalt not put the Lord thy God to the test....

 

... cos he gets nervous and really sucks when under pressure !

[Realist]

well thanks for the inspiration i will post a new topic about how i was an unbeliever and came to Christianty a personal story when i get the chance. I used to be just like you guys. happy without God. I only had resentment becuase i got hurt just as many of you have, there many reasons people change, But i was an unbeliever by logically reading the bible, many things didnt make sense and people couldnt give me answers. again ill go in detail when i share my testimony.

 

But this topic i have already promised to address questions and that i will do if i am to be a man of my word. Im here for the long haul, im here to help myself grow and broaden my view and communication skills. This is how i know prayer works, this website is an answer to my prayer, God opened up a way for me to see more truth througth he bible by being able to see different views and doing a personal bible study to answer the "WHYS" i look forward to continue here. I prayed for this exact thing, and it happened. I use the bible as authority because it works. Furthermore i will get in discussion later but the bible has real life people in it, kings, nations, in history books that correspond with some of the things in the bible. Before i disregard the bible, i would have to discredit history. When i catch up on posts i will tap into that part.

 

... come on! We have heard such lines from you a few times now without any answers to the posts! To me it sounds like you are only here to preach! Let's have some answers to these MANY questions! You have god on your side do not forget, so a few quick answers to meer godless mortals should only be a breeze!

[Spectrox]

The Original Poster said they would be "participating for the Long haul" and yet they only lasted a day or so. These fair weather Christians really aren't up to scratch.

[Destinyjesus3000]

im still here, jsut planning for a wedding my friend, i been responding to all mesaages beign comprised on a word document once i finish i will post it all here ; ) thanks for missing me

[Destinyjesus3000]

just bare with me brother its 50 vs 1. Surely you must understand, i can post small things on my phone but the big responses i will be answering questions im about 70% done responding back from page 2. Please bare with with me wedding planning is time consuming. Quote of tjhe day.."The road to Success, is always under construction"

[RankStranger]

just bare with me brother its 50 vs 1. Surely you must understand, i can post small things on my phone but the big responses i will be answering questions im about 70% done responding back from page 2. Please bare with with me wedding planning is time consuming. Quote of tjhe day.."The road to Success, is always under construction"

 

Well yeah, but you got the CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE on your side. Right??

 

So git to it. You two (or is it four?) should be MORE than a match for this gaggle of heathens.

[Antlerman]

but the big responses i will be answering questions im about 70% done responding back from page 2.

Oh boy, I expect about 15 pages of unbridled shredding at the claws of the lions following that too!

[mymistake]

just bare with me brother its 50 vs 1. Surely you must understand, i can post small things on my phone but the big responses i will be answering questions im about 70% done responding back from page 2. Please bare with with me wedding planning is time consuming. Quote of tjhe day.."The road to Success, is always under construction"

 

I really wish you wouldn't. You are going to waste your time and dig yourself deeper into that hole. You can only come up with subjective evidence or cite things which are not evidence but pretend they support an idea when they don't. Then you will have 500 new problems for you to solve in your next big response. Forget this and talk with us about something else.

[London]

Quote of tjhe day.."The road to Success, is always under construction"

 

Sorry to be nitpicky but something about this quote bothers me.

 

I would say that "the train to success leaves now". In other words, you make a decision to be successful and you just move forward, period.

 

The way you put it makes me think that failure is imminent because you already are expecting obstacles. It has been decided that being successful is going to be a huge chore.

 

Again, not trying to be a downer, but I just hate sayings that always seem to have that "but" in there. Life is a bowl of cherries, but you have to avoid the pits. It's like killing the clown at a childs party. Why add gloom and doom to something that is unneeded.

 

The road to success is the first turn on the right, have at it.

[mymistake]

Quote of tjhe day.."The road to Success, is always under construction"

 

Sorry to be nitpicky but something about this quote bothers me.

 

I would say that "the train to success leaves now". In other words, you make a decision to be successful and you just move forward, period.

 

The way you put it makes me think that failure is imminent because you already are expecting obstacles. It has been decided that being successful is going to be a huge chore.

 

Again, not trying to be a downer, but I just hate sayings that always seem to have that "but" in there. Life is a bowl of cherries, but you have to avoid the pits. It's like killing the clown at a childs party. Why add gloom and doom to something that is unneeded.

 

The road to success is the first turn on the right, have at it.

 

Success begins right now.

 

Life begins right now.

[Antlerman]

It's like killing the clown at a childs party. Why add gloom and doom to something that is unneeded.

I'm quite sure there are many adults who would feel much safer today had someone actually taken out Chuckles the Clown at their 5th birthday party for them.

 

[riddick]

well thanks for the inspiration i will post a new topic about how i was an unbeliever and came to Christianty a personal story when i get the chance. I used to be just like you guys. happy without God. I only had resentment becuase i got hurt just as many of you have, there many reasons people change, But i was an unbeliever by logically reading the bible, many things didnt make sense and people couldnt give me answers. again ill go in detail when i share my testimony.

 

Stop talking down to everyone here, also please note this is an ex-christian forum, you talk to us like we were always Atheists, most of us were christians, and a lot of people here know A LOT about religion, have read the bible thoroughly, (which normally lead them to loose their faith), so please stop quoting bible verses, we have all heard it before and in most cases were in your position right now. Try thinking for yourself, put the bible down, and try answering one of these peoples questions using your own mind, it's a wonderful thing (the human mind), try using it one day.

 

Also, to be honest, we don't really care about how you became a christian.

 

Riddick.

[blackpudd1n]

well thanks for the inspiration i will post a new topic about how i was an unbeliever and came to Christianty a personal story when i get the chance. I used to be just like you guys. happy without God. I only had resentment becuase i got hurt just as many of you have, there many reasons people change, But i was an unbeliever by logically reading the bible, many things didnt make sense and people couldnt give me answers. again ill go in detail when i share my testimony.

 

Stop talking down to everyone here, also please note this is an ex-christian forum, you talk to us like we were always Atheists, most of us were christians, and a lot of people here know A LOT about religion, have read the bible thoroughly, (which normally lead them to loose their faith), so please stop quoting bible verses, we have all heard it before and in most cases were in your position right now. Try thinking for yourself, put the bible down, and try answering one of these peoples questions using your own mind, it's a wonderful thing (the human mind), try using it one day.

 

Also, to be honest, we don't really care about how you became a christian.

 

Riddick.

 

Welcome to the forum, Riddick Off to a strong start

[mymistake]

Also, to be honest, we don't really care about how you became a christian.

 

Riddick.

 

Welcome to ex-C. Cool name. I love those movies.

[par4dcourse]

So, DJ, reading about talking snakes and zombies in Jerusalem and god's genocide campaigns and spooks and spirits gave you faith, eh? A thorough reading of the bible led to my de-conversion. Small world.

[NEWsong]

well thanks for the inspiration i will post a new topic about how i was an unbeliever and came to Christianty a personal story when i get the chance. I used to be just like you guys. happy without God

 

HI Destinyj3; I posted and you did not respond to my reply. I will repeat...

This is EX christian.com...we are EX christians not Atheists per se, a person can be an atheist and had never "believed in god or jesus" at all. I am an EX christian of over 25 years. I know the DEEP ins and outs of WHY I became a christian and WHY I COULD NO LONGER BELIEVE.

 

But i was an unbeliever by logically reading the bible, many things didnt make sense and people couldn't give me answers. again ill go in detail when i share my testimony.

 

This is really a mind boggling statement--- one that proposes and supports the "NON-christians are spiritually immature and unable to understand spiritual things" THIS IS BRAINWASHING!!!! I WAS A CHRISTIAN for 25 years! I "ILLOGICALLY read the bible by faith" so the CHRISTIAN DELUSION would be prominent in my life.

 

Have you replied to any question yet? Your testimony will not impress EX christians to become christians again. We KNOW where you are at even if you don't. It would serve you better to ASK US QUESTIONS and LISTEN and THINK about our replies before offering to share "your testimony"...this is NOT about you. It is about us and what we believe. If you really want to know, you will have to apply yourself and stop preaching; it is not making friends for you.

[Akheia]

Welcome, Riddick! Love the username.

 

As to DJ... I feel so embarrassed for him. And a touch sad that he's spending apparently so much time writing novels' worth of logical fallacies to support his completely subjective viewpoints. It's so unnecessary. Since all he's really done so far is parrot what other apologists have written and said--and piss-poorly at that--I'd rather he just tell one of THEM to come over here and quit playing middleman. I'd love to have a thread from his pastor; I've been wanting to talk to one for a while now about how so many seminaries teach Biblical criticism and how that never seems to carry over into actual preaching to the actual flocks. All DJ and the other Christians floating around here are doing is trying to be the Magic Christians who'll say things JUSSSSST RIGHT and make us all wake up and re-convert. Strange how in all the time lurking and posting I've done here I don't remember a Christian pastor posting. I've seen a couple of ex-pastors post. But maybe I missed the current-pastors. Or maybe they know something these True Believers just don't.

[Guest end3]

Welcome, Riddick! Love the username.

 

As to DJ... I feel so embarrassed for him. And a touch sad that he's spending apparently so much time writing novels' worth of logical fallacies to support his completely subjective viewpoints. It's so unnecessary. Since all he's really done so far is parrot what other apologists have written and said--and piss-poorly at that--I'd rather he just tell one of THEM to come over here and quit playing middleman. I'd love to have a thread from his pastor; I've been wanting to talk to one for a while now about how so many seminaries teach Biblical criticism and how that never seems to carry over into actual preaching to the actual flocks. All DJ and the other Christians floating around here are doing is trying to be the Magic Christians who'll say things JUSSSSST RIGHT and make us all wake up and re-convert. Strange how in all the time lurking and posting I've done here I don't remember a Christian pastor posting. I've seen a couple of ex-pastors post. But maybe I missed the current-pastors. Or maybe they know something these True Believers just don't.

 

I think most pastors/preacher types think it a dead horse so to speak. If I proposed a logical argument with respect to spirituality, I doubt it would change much. I would ask how one would describe spirituality in "proof" terms. Science? Yet, decisions are made on scientific proof.

 

In short, I don't see logic in ruling out something we acknowledge but can't measure.

[blackpudd1n]

Welcome, Riddick! Love the username.

 

As to DJ... I feel so embarrassed for him. And a touch sad that he's spending apparently so much time writing novels' worth of logical fallacies to support his completely subjective viewpoints. It's so unnecessary. Since all he's really done so far is parrot what other apologists have written and said--and piss-poorly at that--I'd rather he just tell one of THEM to come over here and quit playing middleman. I'd love to have a thread from his pastor; I've been wanting to talk to one for a while now about how so many seminaries teach Biblical criticism and how that never seems to carry over into actual preaching to the actual flocks. All DJ and the other Christians floating around here are doing is trying to be the Magic Christians who'll say things JUSSSSST RIGHT and make us all wake up and re-convert. Strange how in all the time lurking and posting I've done here I don't remember a Christian pastor posting. I've seen a couple of ex-pastors post. But maybe I missed the current-pastors. Or maybe they know something these True Believers just don't.

 

I think most pastors/preacher types think it a dead horse so to speak. If I proposed a logical argument with respect to spirituality, I doubt it would change much. I would ask how one would describe spirituality in "proof" terms. Science? Yet, decisions are made on scientific proof.

 

In short, I don't see logic in ruling out something we acknowledge but can't measure.

 

And where have you been hiding lately, Mr. End3?