Wings Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 This forum is, as always, an oasis from the insanity that can come with leaving religion. I should warn you, I'm adopting all of you to be my family, whether you like it or not- but don't worry, no one will force you to attend a cheesy reunion against your will! :-) All kidding aside, I posted on here about two weeks ago about being "outed" as an atheist on facebook. I tried to do damage control by only responding to peoples' hate-filled, fear-inducing, guilt-creating emails with love ("Thank you. I'll think about it. Know I love you."). I naively thought the heat had died down somewhat. A friend volunteered to respond to emails for me so I didn't have to read them and the people who wanted to delete me from fb/life already did.... but today I got emails from a "censored-word" aunt demanding that I return an heirloom gift my grandparents gave me because I no longer deserve it after "mocking them on the internet." (Also known as, "sincerely and legitimately questioning the existence of god on a friends' fb post", not that semantics matter to my accuser). So.... my question is, should I return this item? It was given to me about 6 years ago by my grandparents- no conditions attached. I guess I should admit the irony at this point- it's an old bible. But it has a special story. My great-grandparents immigrated to Canada from the Netherlands in the 1950s and were given this bible to help them learn English. The interesting thing is that the bible used to belong to a prominent family in the United States and was donated when the owner of the bible died without leaving any children. In the bible, from the 1800s, someone took the time to clip and paste newspaper articles about the family. I have always loved history and have been fascinated by this book and the family. I researched them and connected with some distant relatives of theirs. As I said, about 6 years ago my grandparents gave me the bible and, as a history major, first grandchild and only person who ever expressed any interest in it, I always loved this story and part of my family history. I dreamed of giving it to my own (as of yet unborn) children and viewed it as a part of our family story of immigration to the new world. I mean, it's a 200 year old King James- no one actually reads it! Today, my aunt emailed me demanding that I return it. I am furious at what I see as yet another bullying and exclusionary tactic (I've already gotten the "we have nothing in common anymore" etc. emails). I also just think it's wrong that they think they're entitled to ask for a gift to be returned (literally, my grandparents were like, "take it, no one else cares about it.") and I've almost made up my mind that I absolutely won't return it. In fact, I called my mother to tell her that I will return it to the living descendants of the first owner of the bible, with whom I'm in contact, rather than my family. I know this will only cause more rifts and anger in my family, but I've been the only one playing nice so far and this time I feel like they're "poking the beast" a little too much. I'm also interested to know, from those of you in Canada, if there is any legal recourse against this bullying or any anti-religion type boards/lobby groups etc. I know that freedom of religion is enshrined in our Constitution/Charter of Rights and Freedoms, but I also know that this entitles me to my right to believe what I want. I obviously don't want to turn on my family but if they're going to disown me, I want to do everything in my power to ensure that future "me's" don't have the same experience and I'd like to do this the legal/lobby group way. I know there are organizations in the US like Freedom from Religion, but is there anything similar in Canada? All advice welcome and really, you don't have to be my family if you don't want Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 If it was given to you then it is yours to do with as you please. If you don't want it anymore then you are free to sell or give it away to whomever you wish. Email your aunt back and tell her that she should not covet what is yours. Or better yet don't have any more contact with her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zephie Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 The Bible was given to you. Not to her. She is being selfish and greedy. It makes me angry that you have to go through this. *hugs* Keep the Bible. It is special to you. She would have no use other than bragging rights. If you wish to return it to the living descendants that that's up to you but not to her or anyone else that suddenly attaches strings to it. That Bible is yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lunaticheathen Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Punch that bitch in the tit. She's obviously just being spiteful. It also sounds like a really awesome bible, in all honesty. I'd keep it, and tell her to eat shit and die. But I never played nice with anyone who was spiteful to me after leaving christianity, family or not. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wings Posted March 5, 2012 Author Share Posted March 5, 2012 Lunaticheathen.... I want to be your best friend. Haha. Yes, I should qualify that she said my grandparents want it back. I should also say they don't know anything except the rumours my relatives feed them anyway. I totally want to punch someone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericab Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Please keep the bible! Your grandparents wanted you to have it. They felt like it would be most appreciated by you. If they thought that your aunt should have it, they would have given it to her. Your aunt must have a big head to believe that she is entitled to it and that she is in charge of it. Maybe she's envious. How disrespectful of her, both to you and your grandparents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Lunaticheathen beat me again! She's right - the aunt shows how spiteful Christians can be. Tell her to butt out - it's none of her business. That Bible belongs to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lunaticheathen Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 If your grandparents do want it back, I'd at least try to tell them your side of the story. They are the only ones here with any claim to it, but if they know you still respect it, and want it, then they might come around to your side. But your aunt should take a long walk off a short cliff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stryper Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 A gift is a gift. No exceptions. Legally, there is no recourse cause it was given to you many years ago. Further more if the item has value to you then too bad for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VacuumFlux Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 If your grandparents do want it back, I'd at least try to tell them your side of the story. They are the only ones here with any claim to it, but if they know you still respect it, and want it, then they might come around to your side. But your aunt should take a long walk off a short cliff. Strongly agree. Also, if your grandparents do want it back, why didn't they ask you themselves? I would not be surprised if the aunt either misrepresented your actions on purpose to lead them to that conclusion, or if they made some comment that she chose to misinterpret. If your own conscience (and not your aunt's idiocy) leads you to address this with your grandparents, then deal with your grandparents directly and don't let your aunt play the middle man, because it's none of her business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FeelHappy Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Its one of the things your grandparents gave you, I'm assuming they're not still around to ask for it back themselves? I'd keep it, they gave it to you, no one will appreciate it like you will (including the living descendants of the original owners). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator buffettphan Posted March 5, 2012 Super Moderator Share Posted March 5, 2012 Keep it. The aunt has no business poking her nose in this. If your grandparents really want the bible back, they should contact you directly. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdog Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Yeah it's yours to do what you please with. I pretty much agree with all what has been said so far. It's nothing to do with the aunt and IF your grandparents want it back then take up the subject with them directly. Wow I still can't believe how crazy people can get. All because you are unsure and questioning the Christian religion and the existence of God. I am so sorry you have been receiving all this flack. It is bullying. definitely. and is totally uncalled for and downright mean of them. so much for Christian love. They aren't exactly doing a good job at encouraging you to stay in the belief with the way they are all acting. This is what I don't understand. As soon as someone begins to question the religion and no long conforms to what is expected. all hell lets loose and people freak out. when a spouse tells a spouse, when a son or daughter tells their parent, when a friend tells a friend. it's like you have turned into a scary monster and no longer a person to them and they are afraid. It's mind boggling. I experienced it on a smaller scale than yourself with a couple of friends (which we aren't now) and I just don't get it why people get so extreme but they do and it's quite scary. I hope you remain strong and stand your ground and if people cut you out of their lives. then it's their loss. who needs family and friends if they can't accept you for who you are. you are better off without. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Positivist Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 Sounds like someone wants to punish you for defecting from the faith. Everyone in this thread has given great advice and I agree with it. The gift was not contingent upon anything except being a blood relative who is interested in it. You are still interested in it. You are still a blood relative. Not to mention, you have invested in doing even further historical and geneological research. I was saddened (and horrified) to read of your 'outing' on FB. Sorry it's come to this! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Margee Posted March 6, 2012 Moderator Share Posted March 6, 2012 I should warn you, I'm adopting all of you to be my family, whether you like it or not..................... It was given to me about 6 years ago by my grandparents- no conditions attached....... it's an old bible. But it has a special story. . This is your big sister Margee speaking to you... Read the above in red..........Stand up to the bullies in your life (including family). If you get no respect..... move on and save yourself a lot of fighting. Don't waste precious energy. Direct all your positive energy towards those who love and appreciate you. And keep that special 'story book of a bible', given to you from your grandparents! Its yours! Big hug for you tonight! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llwellyn Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 Ms. KVDV. Ik heb een paar gissingen over welke " KVDV" betekent. Ik ben ook noorden Hollander -- mijn moeder was geboren in de stad van Alkmaar. Ik denk ik ontmoette uw neef bij Calvin College. Zeg aan uw familie dat als zij het boek willen, zij zullen een wettelijk geval moeten brengen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeCoastie Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 Just cause you don't believe in the Bible doesn't mean you can't treasure a special Bible given to you by loving grandparents. Sorry to hear you're going through such an ordeal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Positivist Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 Ms. KVDV. Ik heb een paar gissingen over welke " KVDV" betekent. Ik ben ook noorden Hollander -- mijn moeder was geboren in de stad van Alkmaar. Ik denk ik ontmoette uw neef bij Calvin College. Zeg aan uw familie dat als zij het boek willen, zij zullen een wettelijk geval moeten brengen. I am so jealous. My father is Dutch but he refused to teach me Dutch. So I learned French instead. WTF? My family is from Putten. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wings Posted March 6, 2012 Author Share Posted March 6, 2012 Ms. KVDV. Ik heb een paar gissingen over welke " KVDV" betekent. Ik ben ook noorden Hollander -- mijn moeder was geboren in de stad van Alkmaar. Ik denk ik ontmoette uw neef bij Calvin College. Zeg aan uw familie dat als zij het boek willen, zij zullen een wettelijk geval moeten brengen. I am so jealous. My father is Dutch but he refused to teach me Dutch. So I learned French instead. WTF? My family is from Putten. Positivist... I don't know Dutch very well but if you try to sound it out, it'll mostly sound like English! (I'm reminded of a cousin who came from holland and said, "vat is dat? Dat is goed." And I though, wow, this language is sweet. But I only know a few swear words and "ik hou van brandweer mannen" which means, "I like firemen." I'm not sure where that will come in handy, but who knows? Have you had the opportunity to travel there? We'll have to start a "learn dutch club".... errr, although ma Francais et tres mal, aussi :-) Thanks for the message! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overcame Faith Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 As others have correctly said, it was a gift given to you and it is yours to do with as you please. It was given to you by your grandparents and not by the aunt who now demands it back. Your aunt has no standing in any way whatsoever to make any demands about this gift given to you by your grandparents. You don't even know for an absolute fact that your grandparents want it back. For all you know, your aunt may want it herself and is trying to get you to do something as foolish as voluntarily giving up this treasure so she can get her grubby hands on it. If I were you, I'd assume that your grandparents do not want it back until or unless they ask for it back themselves. What is more, I'd ignore the aunt and I would not specifically ask your grandparents whether they want it back. Even if your grandparents were to ask you for it back directly, you still have absolutely no obligation to give it back to them. It will be your decision to make. If it comes to that, then make whatever decision seems wise to you and it will be the right decision. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
London Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 If it was a book on car repair she wouldn't want it. She has no claim to it. And I'll bet you are younger than her, so even if she did somehow get it from you, you will still end up with it when she dies. and... checkmate! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 Hi again kristen Two questions you need to ask are: 1. is the bible important enough to me to keep as an heirloom? 2. would it be held in greater value by others in the family? Would they appreciate having it more? It's your call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astreja Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 The Bible is yours. Period. Even if your grandparents did want it back, you are under no obligation to give it to them. You certainly aren't under any obligation to give it to your aunt, and IMO she's treading on shaky ground by demanding it. I think this requires the hardball approach: Increasingly assertive and, if necessary, punitive responses. Do you have any lawyer friends who can write a strongly-worded "Cease and desist" letter to your aunt? And if she uses e-mail to make even one real-world threat, no matter how mild, report it to "abuse@______________" or "postmaster@______________" (Fill in the blank with the name of her e-mail provider, whatever she has after the @ in her e-mail address.) As for the Bible itself, if you ever get tired of having it around, I'm sure the descendants in the States would love to have it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackpudd1n Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 Hey Kristen, The bible really doesn't even belong in your family to begin with as an heirloom. It belongs to another family. Therefore, I don't quite understand why anyone in your family is getting upset about the bible. It's not their heirloom to begin with. I say this because in my family, we do have a very old bible that is our family heirloom. It is at least 200 years old, if not older. It contains a lot of old family information, births, deaths, marriages, along with valuable pictures by an artist. It is my family's history. And I would be absolutely devasted if my family bible somehow fell into the hands of another family, and then discovered that they were fighting over it when it wasn't even their family history. I say, I spite them all and give the bible back to the real owners of it, and thank them for allowing you a glimpse into their family history. I guarantee that it has a heck of a lot more sentimental value to the family it belongs to than it ever will to your own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wings Posted March 7, 2012 Author Share Posted March 7, 2012 Thanks again for all the comments and advice.... it's given me a lot to think about. The more I think about it, this "gift" wasn't really of any significance at the time: my grandparents were like, "keep it. No one else cares anyway." It does not contain the history of my family and in the meantime I've traced and contacted the distant cousins to whom it really belongs as well as paid to have it bound and fixed (old bibles fall apart). I do appreciate this book more than anyone in my family ever did (no one has ever asked after it, before) and my conclusion is that yes, it's a bible, but this is because it's the only "gift" I've ever been given. Thus far I've refused to be baited or drawn into the drama my extended family is trying to stir up (I reply to all messages, "thank you for your thoughts. I will consider them. Love always.") and yah, I know them well enough to know that's probably driving them crazy. I'm going to write my grandparents a letter to explain that I'm leaving church and that's that. If they want to ask me for it back personally, they can do that themselves. Thanks again for the advice! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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