The Latest With A Christian "friend"

[ToonForever]

Since my deconversion last summer, I've experienced the range of responses from Christian friends who've only known me in the Inerrantist Evangelical environment in which we met. One couple has treated us just as you'd hope. They're still our friends. They come over for dinner. They love us for who we are and vice versa - unconditionally.

 

Then there are a couple other friends, chief among them Rick. The others have sparred a little bit, but run off when the conversation got deep.

 

I started a blog to explore my deconversion, to memorialize the reasons for where I was and where I am.

 

I think Rick thinks he's going to save me. But he's going to do it by insulting my intelligence, ignoring my arguments, and obfuscating his way through the conversation. I should just ignore him, I suppose, but I've never been one to back down from a dispute.

 

I have not always been patient or skillful. I set out to be a lot more - patient. I think I started that way, but I can only brook so much intellectual dithering. I'm sure I could do better.

 

If you want more context, you can visit http://winlb.wordpress.com/

 

Here is a recent conversation (earlier today) from the blog. Obviously you're coming in in media res - so apologies for gaps.

 

What am I looking for? A better way to say things. A pat on the back. Commiseration. A laugh or two. Whatever. Just felt like sharing it and see where the conversation led. Rick's comments are in italics, and are apparently some writing he borrowed from elsewhere (he said so at the front end, but that part is excised here.) The rest are mine.

 

-------------------------------------

 

If you don’t believe in God, how do you explain the reason for your existence?

 

Ah, lovely. “I can’t explain it, so god did it!” Please, Rick. Surely you can do better?

 

After all, you can’t refer to a Creator, or a divine plan. If you’re not created in the image and likeness of God, as the Bible tells us, from what source do you derive your human dignity?

 

By recognizing my humanity, dur? Where did you get this stuff? Because it’s not as clever as you seem to think.

 

Or are you nothing more than an accident of arbitrary biological forces?

 

Quite. So nearly miraculous, so amazing, so unlikely, so random, and so delightfully, chaotically thrilling. An accident of biological and cosmological forces. Stardust. We are stardust. How beautiful is that?

 

Does your life have any more value or meaning than other living creatures – even the simplest life forms that crawl in the mud or swim in the seas?

 

All life has value. All life is precious. I might be tempted to place more value on my life and that of humans because we are self-conscious – but so are other primates, on a certain level, and possibly several other species.

 

If you don’t believe in God, how do you approach the question of your ultimate destiny?

 

By being honest with myself. By not pretending that I have some manifest destiny beyond this world, constantly looking ahead to something that doesn’t exist while I miss half of what is going on right under my nose.

 

Is it simply a question of living a few years and then returning to the dust?

 

It’s actually a rather long time. Then we return to dust. Why fight against what is? Live while there is life. It is fragile and temporary. Accept that it ends, for what is that but reality? It’s not so difficult.

 

Are you no more than an insignificant cipher in the long history of the universe, here today and gone tomorrow?

 

All of us are. Does that idea make you afraid? In the big picture, we’re all terribly insignificant. Spectacularly so. Your bible pretends otherwise because it feeds that thirst for survival that makes us human.

 

Is there no final judge, no accountability for the way you lived on earth?

 

Surely there is not – but if there is, it won’t be arbitrary YHWH and his lawyer son. If there is a judge, I think it will be someone far more just, who will judge a person on their character, their effort, their attempt to rise above, rather than which fairy tale they clung to after living a life of abject evil.

 

But I don’t think there is – all the more reason we should seek justice here on earth. All the more reason to hold our fellow man accountable, root out corruption, repudiate all acts which harm another for the sake of one.

 

Is there no spark of immortality, no heaven, no eternal life where the human soul is released from its earthly shackles?

 

Quite doubtful. There is no evidence for an immortal soul. We are highly evolved animals who have developed self-consciousness through adaptation and natural selection, like several other species, but to a much higher degree. The wish for immortality is simply an outgrowth of our survival instinct. Our physiology is like that of any other animal. While our bodies function, we exist. When our bodies die, we cease. There are no 21 grams or any other nonsense.

 

And when you die, are the precious bonds of love you forged with family and friends erased forever, never to be enjoyed again?

 

Yes. They are a memory. How much more precious is every moment knowing that these years are all you will ever have – maybe a few years of memories, then it’s all gone? We must cherish it in all its fragile beauty, and enjoy it here. There is no evidence for an afterlife to make things right, to get caught up, to make up, to spend time. This is it. Pretending otherwise only cheapens the reality here.

 

If you don’t believe in God, how do you integrate the ups and downs of everyday life into some meaningful pattern?

 

How narrow must your thinking be to assume that one must have a god to find a meaningful pattern in life. Life is impermanence. We make our meaning daily by living this life to the fullest. By loving those around us, by cultivating compassion, by experiencing life, by not shying away from the truth of its fragility.

 

Life is chaos – you seek meaningful patterns. How telling a word you (or the author you plagiarize) use. Did you know that humans have a highly evolved sense of pattern recognition? In what is considered to have been a survival mechanism, the human mind has a strong tendency to recognize facial patterns in natural formations. Because humans and hominids were so vulnerable physically, they developed this acute sense to accentuate their need to flee danger. After all, no harm if you run from a face you see in the shrubbery that isn’t there, but great harm if you don’t see the face of the lion and fail to flee.

 

It is thought this tendency may have also led to the conceptualization of gods in nature.

 

How do you make sense of the suffering and pain that inevitably comes your way?

 

How do *I* make sense of it? I’m sorry, that’s a laugh, Rick. How do YOU make sense of it? How do you make sense of a world of suffering under the power of a supposedly omnibenevolent god? What sort of god heals you or your loved ones of their minor ailments while letting millions starve to death every year without any hope of rescue? What sort of perfectly good god allows so much suffering in the world?

 

In my random world, suffering makes sense. It is part of the nature of an ever-evolving world. Life is impermanent and random. It rains on the righteous and the unrighteous, on the young and the old, on the rich and the poor. Nature is just nature and chaos rules. I accept that life is just life. I’m grateful for my good fortune. I recognize that I cannot save everyone, or for that matter anyone really – not for long. Suffering is part of life.

Suffering in a world created by a perfect omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, omnibenevolent god makes no sense. You can go on about sin, free will, etc., but those too make no sense (issues you’ve yet to address in any reasonable fashion.) Anyway…

 

What is there that keeps you from getting depressed?

 

LOL, what? Accepting reality. Not expecting some sky-god to rescue me from real life. Life is amazing. Life is sometimes hard, sometimes scary, sometimes exhilarating, sometimes restful, sometimes sad, sometimes ecstatic… life is thrilling. Life is what you make of it. How sad that you think you don’t have it in you to live a happy life without a divine being supposedly saving you from yourself. Your take on this is evidence that you don’t understand people very well, and again, that you’re so completely blinkered by your belief system that you can’t imagine any other possibility other than god=happy – no god=depressed.

 

Unlike people of faith, you can’t ask anyone to pray for you.

 

Why would I want someone to talk to themselves for me? I’d rather they get up off their arse and help me with my troubles, or at least be there so I can talk it out if nothing else. Prayer does nothing. Several comprehensive scientific studies of borne that out.

 

Based on your blog entries, I would expect your answer to be something along the lines of:

“I am so much smarter than you silly people who still fail to apply logic to life and who still believe in the man-created concept of god when there is no scientific evidence of the existence of such a being. I am way better than you because I am no longer blinded by that belief and its concepts of sin and atonement”.

 

Now you’re just being an asshole. That doesn’t even deserve the dignity of a polite response.

 

Why would I expect that kind of superior sounding stuff? How about these lines from above:

“I do not need to be saved.

I do not need to be forgiven.

I do not need to be justified.

I do not need to be sanctified.

I do not need a sacrifice.

I do not need atonement.”

 

If your god isn’t real, then what use have I for those things from someone imaginary? If I do something wrong, I’ll ask forgiveness from the person I wronged, not from anyone’s made-up concept of god.

 

All the rest is so much theological refuse developed from the primary nonsense.

 

What you wrote was not a surprise to God.

 

It’s not a surprise to anyone who has abandoned imaginary belief in favor of looking eyes wide open at the world around us.

 

Paul, inspired by the Holy Spirit, wrote this to the church in Corinth: For the wisdom of this world is foolishness to God. As the Scriptures say, “He traps the wise in the snare of their own cleverness.”

 

Again – I would refer you to my previous post about Truth, which you ignored. I can only assume it’s because you have no answer for it, or worse, that you know there is no answer for it and believe if you ignore it it will just go away. If god is truth, then a reasonable search for truth should lead straight to god. This vapid assertion of Paul’s is a direct repudiation of the idea of God as Truth.

 

Despite your protestations to the contrary, you need God and He wants to have a relationship with you.

 

In answer to your repetitive, baseless assertions, I leave you with these two quotes from Carl Sagan.

 

Life is but a momentary glimpse of the wonder of this astonishing universe, and it is sad to see so many dreaming it away on spiritual fantasy.

 

You can’t convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it’s based on a deep seated need to believe.

[Positivist]

Hi TF!

I'm so thankful I have not had any of these conversations (yet). I think it's impossible to reason with these folks. It's like we (the atheists) are talking about musical notation while they (the believers) are talking about giraffes. All in the same conversation, back and forth.... It's pretty trippy and so pointless!

[ToonForever]

It's like we (the atheists) are talking about musical notation while they (the believers) are talking about giraffes.

 

LMAO - that is so well put

[♦ ficino ♦]

Toon, I don't have any ideas about what tone to adopt toward Rick, but I feel for you in having such a conversation with someone who is/was (?) a friend. I used to think what Rick thinks and even ask nonbelievers similar questions. It's funny how now I endorse your answers!

[Margee]

........all I can say Toon is 'brilliant!!' ..... this is going in my favorites!! Thank you for sharing!!

 

This should be pinned!!

 

*****

[Akheia]

Boy howdy does your "friend" Rick sound terrified of the very idea that God might not exist. You know what they say about the really vehement religionists... just closeted, the lot of them...

 

I wonder if he's figured out yet that even if *A* god set the universe in motion, that nothing says it's even *his* god? Hell, maybe we haven't even discovered who or what that god even is. I hope whoever it might be in such a case isn't the petty, vindictive sort like Yahweh is. Won't that be a surprise at the not-so-pearly gates? But wouldn't that be worse than if he were a really, truly loving fellow who just wasn't omnimax but who certainly didn't want any of those judgmental, close-minded bigots in his divine realm? Or what if he were one of those gods who demand that those entering his heaven know about the theory of precession or something and all these "prayer and belief are all you need" gumby Christians are denied entrance due to their own willful lack of education? Whooooopsie!

[Overcame Faith]

If you don’t believe in God, how do you explain the reason for your existence?

 

After all, you can’t refer to a Creator, or a divine plan. If you’re not created in the image and likeness of God, as the Bible tells us, from what source do you derive your human dignity?

 

Or are you nothing more than an accident of arbitrary biological forces?

 

Does your life have any more value or meaning than other living creatures – even the simplest life forms that crawl in the mud or swim in the seas?

 

If you don’t believe in God, how do you approach the question of your ultimate destiny?

 

Is it simply a question of living a few years and then returning to the dust?

 

Are you no more than an insignificant cipher in the long history of the universe, here today and gone tomorrow?

 

Is there no final judge, no accountability for the way you lived on earth?

 

Is there no spark of immortality, no heaven, no eternal life where the human soul is released from its earthly shackles?

 

And when you die, are the precious bonds of love you forged with family and friends erased forever, never to be enjoyed again?

 

If you don’t believe in God, how do you integrate the ups and downs of everyday life into some meaningful pattern?

 

How do you make sense of the suffering and pain that inevitably comes your way?

 

What is there that keeps you from getting depressed?

 

Unlike people of faith, you can’t ask anyone to pray for you.

 

I have quoted most of Rick's questions to you. If you will notice, these questions have a common theme. That theme is how can you get through your life without a belief in god? That theme says a lot about Rick. These same questions have been asked by numerous people right here on ExC who have come to the conclusion that the Christian religion is a falsehood. They are very difficult issues for people, including me, who have come to the conclusion we have. But none of Rick's questions I have quoted get down to the issue of whether there is a god.

 

I have come to the conclusion that if a person is able to find meaning from their belief in the god of the bible, then good for them. My answer to such questions is that I know these are tough questions and that coming to the truth brings its own set of troubles. I am still working through many of these issues and I do not have any sort of magical answers that will make it all okay. It's the price I am paying for accepting the truth. The truth can be a tough task master and if a person is not ready to deal with the truth, then my advice is not to dig too deeply because when one does with an open mind, they may be left with trying to come to terms with these very difficult issues.

 

PS: You did a hell of a good job with your answers.

[Zephie]

You responded beautifully. There was no real discourse from Rick. He just kept grilling you. Beautiful!

[oddbird1963]

Great responses all. I guess Rich is trying to depress you into believing again.

[centauri]

...Based on your blog entries, I would expect your answer to be something along the lines of:

“I am so much smarter than you silly people who still fail to apply logic to life and who still believe in the man-created concept of god when there is no scientific evidence of the existence of such a being. I am way better than you because I am no longer blinded by that belief and its concepts of sin and atonement”.

 

Now you’re just being an asshole. That doesn’t even deserve the dignity of a polite response.

Interesting display of self-righteous behavior by Rick.

Rick doesn't seem to be able to apply his rational in reverse, which is a far more common scenario:

 

“I am so much smarter than you silly people who fail to believe in Jesus and the truth of the New Testament, and who still believe in logic, and objective reasoning.

I am way better than you because I am no longer blinded by logic and the ability to question and reason for myself.

I am way better because I have Jesus on my side and you are lost."

 

Why would I expect that kind of superior sounding stuff? How about these lines from above:

“I do not need to be saved.

I do not need to be forgiven.

I do not need to be justified.

I do not need to be sanctified.

I do not need a sacrifice.

I do not need atonement.”

 

Superior sounding stuff is the bedrock of Christian preaching:

 

I have faith in the firm foundation of Jesus and he magically saves me with his blood.

All else is sinking sand.

I do not need to do anything except trust in Jesus (and various clerics) rather than have faith in my own inept mind.

I am superior because Jesus is Lord and he made me a new and improved creature, unlike all of you lost wretches.

 

What you wrote was not a surprise to God.

Rick has a version of "God" and cannot conceive the possiblity that he's got anything other than the genuine article.

Talk about feeling superior!

 

Paul, inspired by the Holy Spirit, wrote this to the church in Corinth: For the wisdom of this world is foolishness to God. As the Scriptures say, “He traps the wise in the snare of their own cleverness.”

 

Uh huh.

Rick quotes Paul, a religious zealot that contradicted God's word from the Old Testament.

This is the same Paul that claimed he would play whatever role was appropriate if it helped him spread his new religion.

To claim that this man was "inspired by the Holy Spirit" is laughable.

 

Despite your protestations to the contrary, you need God and He wants to have a relationship with you.

If Rick was really serious about believing the the Bible God he would renounce Jesus, along with Paul, and convert to Judaism.

Then he has the nerve to tell you what that you need his version of God.

This just drips with feelings of superiority.

You need my God! (which really means...you need to carry around my neurosis)

[jackbauer]

Most of his arguements fall victim to the "god of the gaps" fallacy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_of_the_gaps

 

Even if these explainations can be explained by a god, who says it has to be the Christian god? It's amazing the leaps and desperation Christians go to to keep their mythology alive.

 

Is there no final judge, no accountability for the way you lived on earth?

 

This one makes me see red. Christianity isn't about accountability, it's about what you believe in. Even the best person isn't good enough by Christian standards. Therefore, the "accountability" thing is just feeling guilty for being human.

[ToonForever]

Toon, I don't have any ideas about what tone to adopt toward Rick, but I feel for you in having such a conversation with someone who is/was (?) a friend. I used to think what Rick thinks and even ask nonbelievers similar questions. It's funny how now I endorse your answers!

 

Naturally I thought exactly like him too - so it's frustrating to get so frustrated with him. Maybe some of that is projection? I get frustrated because I see that in the way I addressed the issues, especially with my wife, who gave up the faith some 7 or 8 years before I did.

 

My goal is not to deconvert the guy - just to help him understand he doesn't have a lock on the truth. The problem is that in his worldview, he does, and to deny that is to break the very authority on which he bases his entire worldview.

 

*Sigh*

[ToonForever]

........all I can say Toon is 'brilliant!!' ..... this is going in my favorites!! Thank you for sharing!!

 

This should be pinned!!

 

*****

 

Thank you - that is very sweet. And very nice coming from you, as I've enjoyed your contributions all over the forums

[ToonForever]

Boy howdy does your "friend" Rick sound terrified of the very idea that God might not exist. You know what they say about the really vehement religionists... just closeted, the lot of them...

 

I thought that same thing while I was responding. So much fear.

 

I wonder if he's figured out yet that even if *A* god set the universe in motion, that nothing says it's even *his* god? Hell, maybe we haven't even discovered who or what that god even is. I hope whoever it might be in such a case isn't the petty, vindictive sort like Yahweh is. Won't that be a surprise at the not-so-pearly gates? But wouldn't that be worse than if he were a really, truly loving fellow who just wasn't omnimax but who certainly didn't want any of those judgmental, close-minded bigots in his divine realm? Or what if he were one of those gods who demand that those entering his heaven know about the theory of precession or something and all these "prayer and belief are all you need" gumby Christians are denied entrance due to their own willful lack of education? Whooooopsie!

 

I've challenged him once or twice (probably more) on that very issue. Only got the ol' dodge.

[ToonForever]

I have quoted most of Rick's questions to you. If you will notice, these questions have a common theme. That theme is how can you get through your life without a belief in god? That theme says a lot about Rick.

 

So frustrating. It's self-denigrating, the assumption that we are completely unable to get through life without some incorporeal spirit invading us and taking control of us - only then to live a worthy life. And I agree - and like the earlier poster, I think there's a lot of fear there.

 

These same questions have been asked by numerous people right here on ExC who have come to the conclusion that the Christian religion is a falsehood. They are very difficult issues for people, including me, who have come to the conclusion we have. But none of Rick's questions I have quoted get down to the issue of whether there is a god.

 

I have come to the conclusion that if a person is able to find meaning from their belief in the god of the bible, then good for them. My answer to such questions is that I know these are tough questions and that coming to the truth brings its own set of troubles. I am still working through many of these issues and I do not have any sort of magical answers that will make it all okay. It's the price I am paying for accepting the truth. The truth can be a tough task master and if a person is not ready to deal with the truth, then my advice is not to dig too deeply because when one does with an open mind, they may be left with trying to come to terms with these very difficult issues.

 

And it's easy for me to forget that what is a comforting reality to me, something that was fairly easy to come to terms with, is much more difficult for others. Probably insensitive of me at times. But I confess that sometimes I also lower myself to scoring points instead of dialogue.

 

PS: You did a hell of a good job with your answers.

 

Thank you. That's very kind.

[ToonForever]

Zephie wrote:

 

You responded beautifully. There was no real discourse from Rick. He just kept grilling you. Beautiful!

 

Thanks

 

Great responses all. I guess Rich is trying to depress you into believing again.

 

LOL - it seems that way. The irony is I'm so much happier not having to try and figure out what the most eternally meaningful thing is for me to do each day. That's a grind.

[ToonForever]

Interesting display of self-righteous behavior by Rick.

Rick doesn't seem to be able to apply his rational in reverse, which is a far more common scenario:

 

“I am so much smarter than you silly people who fail to believe in Jesus and the truth of the New Testament, and who still believe in logic, and objective reasoning.

I am way better than you because I am no longer blinded by logic and the ability to question and reason for myself.

I am way better because I have Jesus on my side and you are lost."

 

Precisely. He cannot see the conceit and elitism in claiming to have the mind of god and judging me, especially my motives and inner state, yet he accuses me of being conceited and self-aggrandizing.

 

Superior sounding stuff is the bedrock of Christian preaching:

 

I have faith in the firm foundation of Jesus and he magically saves me with his blood.

All else is sinking sand.

I do not need to do anything except trust in Jesus (and various clerics) rather than have faith in my own inept mind.

I am superior because Jesus is Lord and he made me a new and improved creature, unlike all of you lost wretches.

Rick has a version of "God" and cannot conceive the possiblity that he's got anything other than the genuine article.

Talk about feeling superior!

 

And I wonder if it's sort of the "Well, I'm right, so it's okay to say it" attitude?

 

Uh huh.

Rick quotes Paul, a religious zealot that contradicted God's word from the Old Testament.

This is the same Paul that claimed he would play whatever role was appropriate if it helped him spread his new religion.

To claim that this man was "inspired by the Holy Spirit" is laughable.

---

If Rick was really serious about believing the the Bible God he would renounce Jesus, along with Paul, and convert to Judaism.

Then he has the nerve to tell you what that you need his version of God.

This just drips with feelings of superiority.

You need my God! (which really means...you need to carry around my neurosis)

 

*Sigh* Well, like I say - I probably am not accomplishing anything - but maybe I plant some seeds that make him think - even if he keeps his faith, perhaps he finds a way to respect others in their lack thereof?

 

Wishful thinking.

[ToonForever]

Most of his arguements fall victim to the "god of the gaps" fallacy. http://en.wikipedia....God_of_the_gaps

 

Even if these explainations can be explained by a god, who says it has to be the Christian god? It's amazing the leaps and desperation Christians go to to keep their mythology alive.

 

Yet I remember clinging to a lot of those things. Amazing the lengths to which many of us went. I sort of felt like I relented to the pressure inside my own mind when I finally took a hard look at the whole thing.

 

Is there no final judge, no accountability for the way you lived on earth?

 

This one makes me see red. Christianity isn't about accountability, it's about what you believe in. Even the best person isn't good enough by Christian standards. Therefore, the "accountability" thing is just feeling guilty for being human.

 

And in a way it take the pressure off humanity to seek justice thoroughly and not just hope the scales get balanced in the afterlife. Well said.

[ToonForever]

Not that it matters but the lines Rick quotes are from a sort-of poem I wrote on my blog wherein...

 

Well, nevermind. I'll just post it:

 

I am not a sinner.

I am not a saint.

I am not a wretch.

I am not lost.

I am not alone.

I am not lonely.

I am not deceived.

I am not an empty vessel.

I am not a fool for anyone.

I am not a sheep.

I am not a goat.

I am not wheat.

I am not chaff.

I am not asleep.

I am not in darkness.

I am not full of murder.

I am not full of strife.

I am not full of hate.

I am not depraved.

I am not greedy.

I am not insolent.

I am not arrogant.

I am not boastful.

I am not a gossip.

I am not condemned.

I am not stubborn.

I am not unrepentant.

I am not an object of wrath.

I am not immortal.

I am not blind.

I am not a thief.

I am not unfaithful.

I am not unrighteous.

I am not worthless.

I am not afraid.

I am not ashamed.

I am not powerless.

I am not dead.

I am not predestined.

I am not a slave.

I am not hellbound.

I am not evil.

I do not need excuses.

I do not need to be saved.

I do not need to be forgiven.

I do not need to be justified.

I do not need to be sanctified.

I do not need a sacrifice.

I do not need atonement.

I do not need to conformed.

I do not fear any god.

I do not fall short.

I am spiritual.

I am here.

I am here now.

I am awake.

I am good.

I am strong.

I am compassionate.

I am free.

I understand.

I need love.

I have love.

I do love.

I love.

I love.

Love.

[older]

Toon:

 

Your response to Rick was articulate and thoughtful and infinitely more patient that I would have been. You showed great restraint. While it is probably useless to debate with him, it is still worth it just to exercise the logical thought processes of one's brain.

 

I'd be tempted to tell him I'll no longer respond to questions he copies from elsewhere, and challenge him to think for himself and come up with his own questions, just as you have come up with your own answers.

 

Please keep us posted as to any further exchanges.

[Akheia]

I'm with @older. I realize Rick was a friend at one point, but these are pretty tired chestnut-style questions; I don't think he came up with them all by himself. He just doesn't seem introspective enough for that. I can pick out themes of fear all through them; if he genuinely is scared that life has no meaning without God, that there might not be an afterlife, and that you might be perfectly happy without God, those fears say more about him than about you or God.

 

But if he's willing to even ask tired old questions, I'm glad you're answering them. Many years ago, a young atheist and I sparred constantly about God and social issues. It amazed me that she had answers for everything! Though we did not achieve any kind of consensus then, she did plant seeds that germinated a couple of years later. Had she refused to even talk about it, those seeds would not have been planted. So even if Rick seems close-minded and absolutely stuck in his beliefs, it may well be that unexpected things are happening way behind the scenes.

[owen652]

Not that it matters but the lines Rick quotes are from a sort-of poem I wrote on my blog wherein...

 

Well, nevermind. I'll just post it:

 

I am not a sinner.

I am not a saint.

I am not a wretch.

I am not lost.

I am not alone.

I am not lonely.

I am not deceived.

I am not an empty vessel.

I am not a fool for anyone.

I am not a sheep.

I am not a goat.

I am not wheat.

I am not chaff.

I am not asleep.

I am not in darkness.

I am not full of murder.

I am not full of strife.

I am not full of hate.

I am not depraved.

I am not greedy.

I am not insolent.

I am not arrogant.

I am not boastful.

I am not a gossip.

I am not condemned.

I am not stubborn.

I am not unrepentant.

I am not an object of wrath.

I am not immortal.

I am not blind.

I am not a thief.

I am not unfaithful.

I am not unrighteous.

I am not worthless.

I am not afraid.

I am not ashamed.

I am not powerless.

I am not dead.

I am not predestined.

I am not a slave.

I am not hellbound.

I am not evil.

I do not need excuses.

I do not need to be saved.

I do not need to be forgiven.

I do not need to be justified.

I do not need to be sanctified.

I do not need a sacrifice.

I do not need atonement.

I do not need to conformed.

I do not fear any god.

I do not fall short.

I am spiritual.

I am here.

I am here now.

I am awake.

I am good.

I am strong.

I am compassionate.

I am free.

I understand.

I need love.

I have love.

I do love.

I love.

I love.

Love.

 

can i repost this elsewhere? I love it.

[ToonForever]

Not that it matters but the lines Rick quotes are from a sort-of poem I wrote on my blog wherein...

 

Well, nevermind. I'll just post it:

 

I am not a sinner.

I am not a saint.

I am not a wretch.

I am not lost.

I am not alone.

I am not lonely.

I am not deceived.

I am not an empty vessel.

I am not a fool for anyone.

I am not a sheep.

I am not a goat.

I am not wheat.

I am not chaff.

I am not asleep.

I am not in darkness.

I am not full of murder.

I am not full of strife.

I am not full of hate.

I am not depraved.

I am not greedy.

I am not insolent.

I am not arrogant.

I am not boastful.

I am not a gossip.

I am not condemned.

I am not stubborn.

I am not unrepentant.

I am not an object of wrath.

I am not immortal.

I am not blind.

I am not a thief.

I am not unfaithful.

I am not unrighteous.

I am not worthless.

I am not afraid.

I am not ashamed.

I am not powerless.

I am not dead.

I am not predestined.

I am not a slave.

I am not hellbound.

I am not evil.

I do not need excuses.

I do not need to be saved.

I do not need to be forgiven.

I do not need to be justified.

I do not need to be sanctified.

I do not need a sacrifice.

I do not need atonement.

I do not need to conformed.

I do not fear any god.

I do not fall short.

I am spiritual.

I am here.

I am here now.

I am awake.

I am good.

I am strong.

I am compassionate.

I am free.

I understand.

I need love.

I have love.

I do love.

I love.

I love.

Love.

 

can i repost this elsewhere? I love it.

 

How kind of you! That would be pretty cool. I would only ask that you link back to the original blog post, if that's not too much trouble:

 

http://winlb.wordpress.com/2012/02/19/i-think-therefore/

 

Thanks again You made this old/new skeptic's evening.

[ToonForever]

I'm with @older. I realize Rick was a friend at one point, but these are pretty tired chestnut-style questions; I don't think he came up with them all by himself. He just doesn't seem introspective enough for that. I can pick out themes of fear all through them; if he genuinely is scared that life has no meaning without God, that there might not be an afterlife, and that you might be perfectly happy without God, those fears say more about him than about you or God.

 

But if he's willing to even ask tired old questions, I'm glad you're answering them. Many years ago, a young atheist and I sparred constantly about God and social issues. It amazed me that she had answers for everything! Though we did not achieve any kind of consensus then, she did plant seeds that germinated a couple of years later. Had she refused to even talk about it, those seeds would not have been planted. So even if Rick seems close-minded and absolutely stuck in his beliefs, it may well be that unexpected things are happening way behind the scenes.

 

I think your and older's advice is very good.

 

And I see it that way too. When I finally faced my doubts and fears, so many of the past conversations I had with skeptics in the past, especially my previously deconverted wife, came back to me. I started to understand what they were saying and it helped me complete the picture.

 

I say that I don't want to deconvert anyone, but I suppose in a way that's not true. I think Christianity is a delusion, and I could not be more pleased if my efforts didn't help others get free of the self-loathing waste of time.

[ToonForever]

 

Interesting display of self-righteous behavior by Rick.

Rick doesn't seem to be able to apply his rational in reverse, which is a far more common scenario:

 

“I am so much smarter than you silly people who fail to believe in Jesus and the truth of the New Testament, and who still believe in logic, and objective reasoning.

I am way better than you because I am no longer blinded by logic and the ability to question and reason for myself.

I am way better because I have Jesus on my side and you are lost."

 

 

By the way, I'm borrowing this for my response to his response (which I'll post later.) I promise to give it back!