Discussion Between Pastor And Atheist/freethinker

[2Honest]

I came across this video today and thought it was so fascinating to watch. About a year ago here in the DFW area a local atheist group took out an ad on the side of buses that said, "Good Without God". In response, this pastor (Heath Hill) put an ad on the side of his private company truck that said, "God Still Loves You" and then followed the other bus around town. Stupid, yes.

 

But anyway, Pastor Hill was teaching a class at his church where they'd been "studying different religions". Hill contacted Zachary Moore, the director of Fellowship of Freethought in Dallas (who works with the people who posted the Good Without God ad") and they had lunch. Zachary agreed to attend Pastor Hill's class and answer questions about atheism/freethought.

 

It was so interesting to watch this pastor's reaction to Zachary and then hear the comments/questions at the end of the class. Zachary handled himself so well, was very polite and respectful and had great answers to their questions. It was so obvious that the pastor and others weren't quite sure what to do with him. Jblueep and I are planning to attend some meetups soon and hope to be able to meet this guy and have a beer with him.

 

 

 

 

(BTW, I wasn't really sure where to post this. Sorry if I've put it in the wrong forum.)

[Zephie]

I am hoping to move to the Austin area soon and can't wait to go do some meetups with local atheists/freethinkers as well as pagans. It will be so exciting for this new start. Too bad I can't watch the video at work.

[2Honest]

Yeah, it's really surprising how many freethinkers there are here - or at least that they are so organized. We haven't been able to attend anything yet b/c of my health, but that's starting to improve a little bit so hopefully we can go to something soon. It will be so nice to talk face to face with some people that we can be ourselves with. This forum has been SO amazing for that, but there's just no replacement for real-live flesh and blood.

 

Good luck with your move. I hear Austin is really different than the rest of the state - more liberal and "California-ized". I'm sure you'd enjoy it there.

[Margee]

2Honest, if I was to write tonight and make all the points I want to about this exellent video, I would be here all night. This was VERY worth watching for me. One of the best hour and a half I have seen in a long time. It was really nice to listen to a 'debate,' where there was no screeching and hollering.

 

Anyone who see's my comments, should just grab a big coffee, relax and listen to this. I especially love one of the comments made by a christian in the very end........ He said; 'I can't imagine having that much faith in myself to be without god' and they all agreed together that society has proven through history that we are just a 'mess' without god. Wow! When they closed with prayer, they prayed that god would give our friend 'the atheist' a ' Damascus road experience'. It seems that as much as he tried to tell them how 'comfortable ' he was without god...they still wouldn't except this.

 

He did a fabulous job and I can't say that I could ever stay as loving and kind as he did throught the whole interview. i got revved up a couple of times!!

 

Thank you so much for posting this.

[marmot]

The newscaster seems fairly hostile. That is unusual. What happened to unbiased reporting/interviewing?

[2Honest]

margee I agree. I was pretty amazed at the ignorance of the believers. Not one of them had a compelling question or argument.

That being said it is nice to see believers willing to have a non-believer come in and actually listen to them and not attack them.

 

Zachary Moore commented on this video (on another site) and said a couple approached him afterwards and asked if he thought Christians could also be free thinkers b/c they really liked some of his views. I am paraphrasing, but his answer was basically, "Good luck with that."

 

Marmot- I know! She actually came right out and said she was upset by his ads and was visibly put off by him. Guess that's Texas for ya.

 

It's so hard to believe I was one of those believers just a few months ago...maybe not as fundie, but still...

[marmot]

Just listened to this whole thing. I thought that on the whole, he gave a balanced, not too intellectual but not too dummied down picture into free thought. I liked that he stressed the lack of surety, because the lack of evidence (I wish he would have talked about Russell's teapot or something here...they all seemed eager to jump on his lack of 100% conviction in atheism, just like Dawkins). I am proud of him for doing this.

 

Most of the questions were pretty run of the mill, nothing surprising.

 

The one thing that was said that WASN'T a question was the woman that took offense to his parenting advice (using the golden rule as a guide). I have quoted it verbatim here, because I think it sounds so scary/domineering/anti-intellectual.

 

"I have a two year old. I'm working on her obedience right now. I just read a book, yesterday, part of it, that Evan has been urging me to...he gave an example about if you have two kids, one has a toy and one has another. One kid takes it from the other, Polly, and the parent said how would you feel if Polly took the toy from you? That's NOT what we should be saying to our kids. We should be saying to our kids 'I said don't take toys from Polly, she's taking it from them, and you shouldn't do it because I said so.' And so I just wanted to say that to you, it is a good teaching point as a parent, about how we as parents are parenting our kids. I don't know if any of you came last Sunday. The speaker talked a lot about our kids, and we're gonna grow up a generation of kids who don't believe in God. It's about where it starts at home. When they're young, they're little, they can crawl. This is what I'm dealing with personally, and for you to say that example really speaks to me. They're not going to believe in God if we tell them 'how do you feel about this?' You need to give them an example of who God is in your life, and of obedience."

 

So basically: I can't trust these kids to think for themselves. I need to tell them exactly what to think because otherwise they will veer from truth (doesn't that sound an awful lot like a fear of someone that is spreading a lie?).

[Margee]

Just listened to this whole thing. I thought that on the whole, he gave a balanced, not too intellectual but not too dummied down picture into free thought. I liked that he stressed the lack of surety, because the lack of evidence (I wish he would have talked about Russell's teapot or something here...they all seemed eager to jump on his lack of 100% conviction in atheism, just like Dawkins). I am proud of him for doing this.

 

Most of the questions were pretty run of the mill, nothing surprising.

 

The one thing that was said that WASN'T a question was the woman that took offense to his parenting advice (using the golden rule as a guide). I have quoted it verbatim here, because I think it sounds so scary/domineering/anti-intellectual.

 

"I have a two year old. I'm working on her obedience right now. I just read a book, yesterday, part of it, that Evan has been urging me to...he gave an example about if you have two kids, one has a toy and one has another. One kid takes it from the other, Polly, and the parent said how would you feel if Polly took the toy from you? That's NOT what we should be saying to our kids. We should be saying to our kids 'I said don't take toys from Polly, she's taking it from them, and you shouldn't do it because I said so.' And so I just wanted to say that to you, it is a good teaching point as a parent, about how we as parents are parenting our kids. I don't know if any of you came last Sunday. The speaker talked a lot about our kids, and we're gonna grow up a generation of kids who don't believe in God. It's about where it starts at home. When they're young, they're little, they can crawl. This is what I'm dealing with personally, and for you to say that example really speaks to me. They're not going to believe in God if we tell them 'how do you feel about this?' You need to give them an example of who God is in your life, and of obedience."

 

So basically: I can't trust these kids to think for themselves. I need to tell them exactly what to think because otherwise they will veer from truth (doesn't that sound an awful lot like someone telling a lie?).

i know - that part got to me too!! Tell them what to believe .......jeeeezzzeee!!!

[JoeCoastie]

I love how scared and defensive the Christians sounded during the follow up questions. It amazes me how I used to have a similar trapped mindset.

 

All that woman with the wonderful parenting advice teaches her kids is obedience to authority, which mirrors how many Christians see God. When they say its cool for God to order rape, slavery, and genocide its okay cause he's the authority.

[owen652]

only seen half of it, but looks like a really good dialogue, the way it should always be, but never seems to. I can relate to the perplexed nature of the christian responses, when i was a believer the idea of leaving the faith for a system of unbelief like atheism just did not compute.

[freeasabird]

Just listened to this whole thing. I thought that on the whole, he gave a balanced, not too intellectual but not too dummied down picture into free thought. I liked that he stressed the lack of surety, because the lack of evidence (I wish he would have talked about Russell's teapot or something here...they all seemed eager to jump on his lack of 100% conviction in atheism, just like Dawkins). I am proud of him for doing this.

 

Most of the questions were pretty run of the mill, nothing surprising.

 

The one thing that was said that WASN'T a question was the woman that took offense to his parenting advice (using the golden rule as a guide). I have quoted it verbatim here, because I think it sounds so scary/domineering/anti-intellectual.

 

"I have a two year old. I'm working on her obedience right now. I just read a book, yesterday, part of it, that Evan has been urging me to...he gave an example about if you have two kids, one has a toy and one has another. One kid takes it from the other, Polly, and the parent said how would you feel if Polly took the toy from you? That's NOT what we should be saying to our kids. We should be saying to our kids 'I said don't take toys from Polly, she's taking it from them, and you shouldn't do it because I said so.' And so I just wanted to say that to you, it is a good teaching point as a parent, about how we as parents are parenting our kids. I don't know if any of you came last Sunday. The speaker talked a lot about our kids, and we're gonna grow up a generation of kids who don't believe in God. It's about where it starts at home. When they're young, they're little, they can crawl. This is what I'm dealing with personally, and for you to say that example really speaks to me. They're not going to believe in God if we tell them 'how do you feel about this?' You need to give them an example of who God is in your life, and of obedience."

 

So basically: I can't trust these kids to think for themselves. I need to tell them exactly what to think because otherwise they will veer from truth (doesn't that sound an awful lot like someone telling a lie?).

i know - that part got to me too!! Tell them what to believe .......jeeeezzzeee!!!

 

The best part was when the other Christians jumped in to tell her she was wrong and he was right!!

 

Overall I was astonished and amazed at Zach's preparation for the subject matter and his demeanor throughout the interview. Even though in his shoes I would want to debate the woman who got defensive on the slavery topic (and who quite frankly doens't even know what her bible teaches on the subject), he made the right call in letting it go. I can't help but wonder how many people in that room will start to question their belief system. I have to hand it to the pastor, many other pastors in his shoes would never let someone as self assured as Zach into their church to speak to their Sunday school class.

 

That was an excellent video, thanks for sharing.

[Wings]

Really enjoyed this video.

Thanks for sharing!

[marmot]

 

Overall I was astonished and amazed at Zach's preparation for the subject matter and his demeanor throughout the interview. Even though in his shoes I would want to debate the woman who got defensive on the slavery topic (and who quite frankly doens't even know what her bible teaches on the subject), he made the right call in letting it go. I can't help but wonder how many people in that room will start to question their belief system. I have to hand it to the pastor, many other pastors in his shoes would never let someone as self assured as Zach into their church to speak to their Sunday school class.

 

That was an excellent video, thanks for sharing.

 

That one bugged me too. Um...the only slaves were slaves that were in debt? Someone sold her a false bill of goods on that one.

[owen652]

finished watching it today, fantastic video. I loved how he used the George Washington analogy, which the guy in the audience who told it thought was a good point for the authenticity of the NT, and he spun it round and used it much more effectively against the NT.

[Deva]

I watched the video and I was very impressed by the atheist. He did not lose his cool -- afraid if I were in the same position with some of those types of questions I wouldn't have done so well.

 

Especially toward the end where someone says something about human nature being so depraved and terrible-he cites stuff like murder, rape or such. Well, asshole, human beings can be good, kind, compassionate, loving, giving, self-sacrificing.

 

I hate the low view Christians have of people.

 

Also, at the end, the self-serving prayer of the Christian leader "that we might be examples and draw the atheist to the Lord" bullshit. Ugh...as if he needed an ounce of your crazy BS.

[★ Citsonga ★]

Thanks for posting this video.

 

The one thing that was said that WASN'T a question was the woman that took offense to his parenting advice (using the golden rule as a guide). I have quoted it verbatim here, because I think it sounds so scary/domineering/anti-intellectual.

 

"I have a two year old. I'm working on her obedience right now. I just read a book, yesterday, part of it, that Evan has been urging me to...he gave an example about if you have two kids, one has a toy and one has another. One kid takes it from the other, Polly, and the parent said how would you feel if Polly took the toy from you? That's NOT what we should be saying to our kids. We should be saying to our kids 'I said don't take toys from Polly, she's taking it from them, and you shouldn't do it because I said so.' And so I just wanted to say that to you, it is a good teaching point as a parent, about how we as parents are parenting our kids. I don't know if any of you came last Sunday. The speaker talked a lot about our kids, and we're gonna grow up a generation of kids who don't believe in God. It's about where it starts at home. When they're young, they're little, they can crawl. This is what I'm dealing with personally, and for you to say that example really speaks to me. They're not going to believe in God if we tell them 'how do you feel about this?' You need to give them an example of who God is in your life, and of obedience."

 

So basically: I can't trust these kids to think for themselves. I need to tell them exactly what to think because otherwise they will veer from truth (doesn't that sound an awful lot like someone telling a lie?).

i know - that part got to me too!! Tell them what to believe .......jeeeezzzeee!!!

 

Interestingly, I thought she sounded really nervous.

 

Overall I was astonished and amazed at Zach's preparation for the subject matter and his demeanor throughout the interview. Even though in his shoes I would want to debate the woman who got defensive on the slavery topic (and who quite frankly doens't even know what her bible teaches on the subject), he made the right call in letting it go.

 

That one bugged me too. Um...the only slaves were slaves that were in debt? Someone sold her a false bill of goods on that one.

 

That really stood out to me too. Personally, I think he should have pointed out that there was forced slavery in the Bible. That's just one little nit-pick in an otherwise very good presentation, though.

 

Especially toward the end where someone says something about human nature being so depraved and terrible-he cites stuff like murder, rape or such. Well, asshole, human beings can be good, kind, compassionate, loving, giving, self-sacrificing.

 

Yeah, I got the feeling that that guy needed a dose of something like, "I don't rape, murder and steal, do you?"

[owen652]

I also thought it was completely inappropriate to pray at the end. Are they really incapable of having ANY kind of meeting without prayer? Did they think for a second it might be awkward? And to actually pray (right in front of him) that he have a "Damascus Road experience"? Considering our church band, which I used to play in, was called Damascus Road.... that is one experience you do NOT want to have. Embarassing.

[Akheia]

Jeez, why didn't they just ask for Zachary to have a Job experience? I mean, they're asking for him to be blinded, right? Even if he had one, wouldn't his first response to be to get to a hospital for an MRI/CAT scan, not immediately assume God was doing it like Paul had to in the absence of modern medicine?

[2Honest]

Yeah, did you notice while they were praying that Zachary shot a "knowing look" at the camera? Thought that was funny.

 

One thing that aggravated me about the prayer was the assumption that he'd never had an experience with God. I'm sure they couldn't fathom why this nice guy wouldn't want to be a Christian anymore - oh well it MUST be b/c he's never had an experience!

[MrsRoper]

Thus video has stuck with me the past couple days. I am so impressed by our free thinking friend for his desire to actually engage with the christians. I am also impressed that the pastor was at least open minded enough to have him there. What I really thought was crazy, and kinda shows the TrueChristians' true colors was the "I wouldn't even give someone a can of coke without sharing the gospel comment." Uuugh? Really? You are unable to show any act of charity or kindness without trying to indoctrinate someone? Was anyone else totally appalled by this?

[freeasabird]

Thus video has stuck with me the past couple days. I am so impressed by our free thinking friend for his desire to actually engage with the christians. I am also impressed that the pastor was at least open minded enough to have him there. What I really thought was crazy, and kinda shows the TrueChristians' true colors was the "I wouldn't even give someone a can of coke without sharing the gospel comment." Uuugh? Really? You are unable to show any act of charity or kindness without trying to indoctrinate someone? Was anyone else totally appalled by this?

 

I must have missed that part. Where was it in the video and what was the context?

[2Honest]

Thus video has stuck with me the past couple days. I am so impressed by our free thinking friend for his desire to actually engage with the christians. I am also impressed that the pastor was at least open minded enough to have him there. What I really thought was crazy, and kinda shows the TrueChristians' true colors was the "I wouldn't even give someone a can of coke without sharing the gospel comment." Uuugh? Really? You are unable to show any act of charity or kindness without trying to indoctrinate someone? Was anyone else totally appalled by this?

 

YES! That was one of many facepalm moments I had watching this. I get the fact that in the pastor's mind he's doing the person a favor by "introducing them to Jesus". His belief system tells him that the person he's helping is destined for hell unless they get saved. The pastor seemed like a genuinely caring person, so I understand his motivation. But what he doesn't realize is that the majority of people he does this to just end up feeling like they're being conned rather than being shown love and compassion.

 

I also thought it was interesting how the woman asked Zachary if he was making money off of working with atheist organizations. (Which he doesn't) Hmm, does she have a problem with her pastor getting a salary from pastoring the church?

[2Honest]

What I really thought was crazy, and kinda shows the TrueChristians' true colors was the "I wouldn't even give someone a can of coke without sharing the gospel comment." Uuugh? Really? You are unable to show any act of charity or kindness without trying to indoctrinate someone? Was anyone else totally appalled by this?

 

I must have missed that part. Where was it in the video and what was the context?

 

 

 

I remember that being towards the beginning - like within the first 10-20 minutes,

[MrsRoper]

 

I also thought it was interesting how the woman asked Zachary if he was making money off of working with atheist organizations. (Which he doesn't) Hmm, does she have a problem with her pastor getting a salary from pastoring the church?

 

I thought that too. Was she trying to discredit him? There were probably a couple people there who were actually trying to understand him. I think the rest were just looking to find problems, you could tell by how shallow most of their questions were.