Atheist Sexism

[darwinfish]

I feel like I've always been more of a feminist than my wife. We've gotten into discussions before that have just floored me the sort of things that she would argue. Her mom is way worse, my wife told me once that her mom doesn't believe that women should be allowed to vote. I've never been to a real atheist event, but I heard that last year (and maybe some of the previous years) that women at TAM felt their was a lot of sexism going on. I was wondering how women on this forum feel in these atheist environments and what can us guys do to make women feel more accommodated. All sexes should free to respond, I'd like to get as many perspectives as I can.

[par4dcourse]

Hi Illusion and welcome to the forums .

I don't see this at all here. We're not all atheists, but most if not all members are all about equal rights for everyone. We don't all agree on anything, but we're pretty set on the right to say it. Female members aren't treated any differently, to my knowledge.

Interested in other responses.

[flockoff]

Unless I'm mistaking it for something else I think the incident you're talking about was the YouTube vlogger Skepchick (sp?) making a video about a guy who met her in the elevator at the conference and offered to have coffee with her, which she somehow deduced was about him potentially trying to rape her. It got so much attention that Richard Dawkins (who looked noticeably unimpressed and frankly like he was wasting his time at the table he shared with her) made some public comment about how she was forgetting about women who live in third world countries where society condones actual rape and not just the made up horseshit she was complaining about. I think I heard some more information/arguments that made me kind of see it both ways, but I can't remember now.

 

I think since atheists are a minority with a vocal contingent aiming at social progression we're expected to sympathize with other movements ie GLBTQ, women's rights including reproductive rights, etc. So it's more conspicuous when attitudes perceived as bigoted come from those representing atheism, and the heightened pressure to be more accepting of certain ideas than the general population probably makes some atheists sound off about it more. People want to think atheists also have to be feminists, pro choice, et al because questioning the god concept "frees" you. It does, but not necessarily to agree with them.

[Ouroboros]

Genetically speaking, women are more complete human than guys. The Y chromosome (male) is just a small piece of DNA, a lot smaller than the X chromosome. I'm a guy, but I know that we are not the top of the hill genetically. Some geneticists theorize that the male sex could disappear in a distant future, reduced through natural selection. So who should have the power to vote? The genetically superior species or the one with the biggest ego? (Sorry, I know guys like me have huge egos. )

[Positivist]

Genetically speaking, women are more complete human than guys. The Y chromosome (male) is just a small piece of DNA, a lot smaller than the X chromosome.

It's true; males are really just sabotaged females.

 

I feel a lot less sexism in atheist circles than in religious circles, that's for sure. I am finally allowed to have a voice and I even have the beginnings of confidence. I am enjoying mutual respect of the sexes, as opposed to feeling like shit whenever I'm around Christian men.

 

Sexism is so rampant in Christianity that it leaks into every area of it. A fundy acquaintance of mine is writing a screen play (because God told him to, no less) and guess what amazing progressive notion it's about? <drumroll...> The importance of fathers. I am so tired of the fundagelical obsession with fathers. I really don't think an atheist would cough up such tripe!

[VacuumFlux]

I've never been to an atheist event, but I have been in some predominantly male events. So far, my experiences have been good, but I can see how things could go poorly. Since you asked for suggestions on making women feel comfortable in such environments, here's what I'd suggest:

 

1. Don't start a conversation with a stranger by saying "OMG, there's a woman here!" One or twice that's ok, mentioning it in a conversation is ok, but I'm showing up at the event because I'm interested in the subject matter, and I'd rather talk about the point of the event than the fact that I happen to have been born female.

 

2. Be aware of sexual dimorphism. Many humans in a new and strange environment are more on edge than normal. Human females tend to be slightly smaller than human males, and I find that when I'm already slightly nervous from being around a lot of strangers, the animal side of my brain is more vocal/paranoid, and I am quite aware that in a fight with most of the people around me, I would loose. Humans are animals; think about how any nervous animal would react to your body language, and if a woman seems lost or shy or overwhelmed, be careful not to use any body language that would tend to signal aggression. Leave her sufficient personal space, an escape route, and watch your tone of voice. At least at the start of a conversation. I find that once I calm down a bit and feel more comfortable at the event, I quit noticing these things so much.

 

3. If you're already concerned about making women feel comfortable and safe, you're probably not doing too many of the behaviors that make women feel uncomfortable. So don't spend all your time thinking "oh god, a woman, be careful!" and just relax and treat us like fellow human beings. Sure, if there's a specific issue you've heard about that you need to work on, be careful about it, but in general just having the mental attitude that women are equal human beings and just as worthy of respect as men gets you most of the way there.

 

4. Intervene in a situation if you see a woman looking threatened and/or a guy being creepy. That can be as little as standing in such a way that the guy knows you're watching and that you will be a threat to him if he becomes a threat to her, or joining in a conversation that's going the wrong direction and change the topic, pretending to be totally oblivious to how creepy the guy is (so that he doesn't feel threatened and become aggressive). If something seems really bad, inform security. (Side note: if you see a woman who'd just gotten out of an uncomfortable situation and you want to make sure she's ok, see #2. She's likely to be stuck in a category error and be suspicious of all men right after dealing with one bad apple.)

[SilentLoner]

^{I haven't experienced that in the atheism movement, but I've heard some claims from women who have. So I don't know.}

[darwinfish]

Unless I'm mistaking it for something else I think the incident you're talking about was the YouTube vlogger Skepchick (sp?) making a video about a guy who met her in the elevator at the conference and offered to have coffee with her, which she somehow deduced was about him potentially trying to rape her. It got so much attention that Richard Dawkins (who looked noticeably unimpressed and frankly like he was wasting his time at the table he shared with her) made some public comment about how she was forgetting about women who live in third world countries where society condones actual rape and not just the made up horseshit she was complaining about. I think I heard some more information/arguments that made me kind of see it both ways, but I can't remember now.

 

That was one of the issues this last TAM. And, the year before there was some chatter about women feeling uncomfortable. I'm just hoping to learn from what is being said out there, and not contribute to the problem.

 

 

I've never been to an atheist event, but I have been in some predominantly male events. So far, my experiences have been good, but I can see how things could go poorly.

 

Awesome, I'm glad that you've been having good experiences. And as for the list, I've probably violated 1. a few times trying to be funny. 2. and 3. I've been conscience of, and I think I'll try to be more aware of 4. Thanks for the advice, it's very helpful.

 

 

Sexism is so rampant in Christianity that it leaks into every area of it. A fundy acquaintance of mine is writing a screen play (because God told him to, no less) and guess what amazing progressive notion it's about? <drumroll...> The importance of fathers. I am so tired of the fundagelical obsession with fathers. I really don't think an atheist would cough up such tripe!

 

Exactly, and I think that's why my wife doesn't see the same sexism as I do at church. She's still a strong believer. But, even if the atheist community is better than the religious communities, I don't want to stop there and act as though these concerns aren't important. But, I'm glad to hear that you also, have had positive experiences.

[Positivist]

I think that's why my wife doesn't see the same sexism as I do at church. She's still a strong believer.

 

I think Christian women simply internalize the misogyny as 'the way it is'. I've never been able to 'lay there and take it' but it never ceases to amaze and sadden me what a Christian woman will put up with. At least in terms of sexism. Sigh.

[VacuumFlux]

And as for the list, I've probably violated 1. a few times trying to be funny. 2. and 3. I've been conscience of, and I think I'll try to be more aware of 4. Thanks for the advice, it's very helpful.

 

I just thought of a way to summarize several of the points. If you want a stranger to feel included, make sure you know that they are part of your tribe before you point out how they are different. If all a woman hears from other conference attendees is "You are an Other", it's off-putting. But it's ok to point out differences when the context is clearly "I am interested in the diversity within our tribe".

[Dhampir]

Unless I'm mistaking it for something else I think the incident you're talking about was the YouTube vlogger Skepchick (sp?) making a video about a guy who met her in the elevator at the conference and offered to have coffee with her, which she somehow deduced was about him potentially trying to rape her. It got so much attention that Richard Dawkins (who looked noticeably unimpressed and frankly like he was wasting his time at the table he shared with her) made some public comment about how she was forgetting about women who live in third world countries where society condones actual rape and not just the made up horseshit she was complaining about. I think I heard some more information/arguments that made me kind of see it both ways, but I can't remember now.

 

Her argument was that earlier in the day, at a talk she had given, she specifically outlined the type of actions that make women feel like they might be in a compromised position, ie. being approached in an enclosed solitary location, such as an elevator. The gentleman in question had been to that talk, and had been with her group at the bar, and yet chose to approach her in that manner anyway. She argued that she didn't think that he specifically was trying to rape her, but that she was made uncomfortable by the prospect of having to deal with such a situation, which he was fully aware of, and, that these are actions that well-meaning men should consider when dealing with women they don't know and who have no reason to trust that they won't be raped.

 

I think it's a fair argument. One that personally puts me further off of attempting contact with strange women altogether, but fair nonetheless.

[Vigile]

^{I haven't experienced that in the atheism movement, but I've heard some claims from women who have. So I don't know.}

 

That's cute. Now be a doll and get me a beer, will ya hon?

 

 

 

 

 

[JadedAtheist]

I guess it depends on what you mean by "sexism". I see "that's sexist" thrown out as a slur so often I don't even know what people mean when they say it anymore (same with the word "racist"), and I'm not even trying to be smart here. I really don't have a clue what people mean.

[darwinfish]

I guess it depends on what you mean by "sexism". I see "that's sexist" thrown out as a slur so often I don't even know what people mean when they say it anymore (same with the word "racist"), and I'm not even trying to be smart here. I really don't have a clue what people mean.

 

For me, sexism is clearly present when it either objectifies a person because of their sex or demeans them. I would say similarly, when a person is stereotyped or demeaned because of their race, I would call that racism. I don't see a problem in looking at generalities between different groups of people or recognizing differences between sexes, I don't see that as stereotyping or objectifying.

[JadedAtheist]

For me, sexism is clearly present when it either objectifies a person because of their sex or demeans them.

 

By that definition, I don't think I've ever seen that happen. Then again, as with the word "sexist" people can mean different things than I do when they say "objectify" or "demean".

[darwinfish]

Well in my time in the Army, both sexism and racism has been obvious.

[blackpudd1n]

Well, Dusty has something to say on this subject, actually:

 

[Jedah]

Sexism will be everywhere. Religion tends to have more.

 

One thing you have to keep in mind is the sexual persecution complex some women have towards men ( Like this classic gem ) where women will interpret even the slightest sexual thought a man might have as being sexist. For every woman that experiences legitimate discrimination for being female, there always seems to be an insane girl who thinks that every guy who asks her out for coffee is trying to rape her or something equally ridiculous.

[blackpudd1n]

Hi Illusion and welcome to the forums .

I don't see this at all here. We're not all atheists, but most if not all members are all about equal rights for everyone. We don't all agree on anything, but we're pretty set on the right to say it. Female members aren't treated any differently, to my knowledge.

Interested in other responses.

 

I would have to agree with Par here.

 

I have never felt disparaged on the forum. In fact, I feel more of an equal than I have ever felt in my life.

 

I think a lot of it has to do with the focus being on logic, reason, and debate, and not my gender. It's my arguments that count, not my gender.

[Vigile]

Hi Illusion and welcome to the forums .

I don't see this at all here. We're not all atheists, but most if not all members are all about equal rights for everyone. We don't all agree on anything, but we're pretty set on the right to say it. Female members aren't treated any differently, to my knowledge.

Interested in other responses.

 

I would have to agree with Par here.

 

I have never felt disparaged on the forum. In fact, I feel more of an equal than I have ever felt in my life.

 

I think a lot of it has to do with the focus being on logic, reason, and debate, and not my gender. It's my arguments that count, not my gender.

 

Good on you sweet cheeks, no get me that beer will ya?

 

[blackpudd1n]

Hi Illusion and welcome to the forums .

I don't see this at all here. We're not all atheists, but most if not all members are all about equal rights for everyone. We don't all agree on anything, but we're pretty set on the right to say it. Female members aren't treated any differently, to my knowledge.

Interested in other responses.

 

I would have to agree with Par here.

 

I have never felt disparaged on the forum. In fact, I feel more of an equal than I have ever felt in my life.

 

I think a lot of it has to do with the focus being on logic, reason, and debate, and not my gender. It's my arguments that count, not my gender.

 

Good on you sweet cheeks, no get me that beer will ya?

 

 

Only if you get in the kitchen and make me a sammich first

[VacuumFlux]

Sexism will be everywhere. Religion tends to have more.

 

One thing you have to keep in mind is the sexual persecution complex some women have towards men ( Like this classic gem ) where women will interpret even the slightest sexual thought a man might have as being sexist. For every woman that experiences legitimate discrimination for being female, there always seems to be an insane girl who thinks that every guy who asks her out for coffee is trying to rape her or something equally ridiculous.

 

One thing I keep hoping the feminist movement will put a bigger emphasis on is teaching women not to be sexist towards their own gender or towards men. At least half the pressure I've had to "act my gender" comes from women, not men.

 

On the harassment issues, I think the sex-positive movement helps with that a little bit; focusing on "yes means yes" instead of "defend yourself from the scary guys" would help a lot. Hopefully, once women and men realize that it's ok for women to be enthusiastic, willing partners, men will feel less compelled to do creepy/coercive things to "score". Part of my own issues with men is that I was never taught about "no means no" because it was all abstinence until marriage, so when a guy makes unwanted and stupid advances (like a guy who's much bigger than me that I don't know very well invading my personal space while we're totally alone to kiss me on the mouth without ever having asked or even clearly indicated romantic interest), my first thought is "oh god, how can I run away before he hurts me" and not "uh, i should tell him no so that he'll stop" because it doesn't occur to me that he would respect my no. Which just makes my freaking out and jerking away more awkward for both of us, because now I'm scared and embarrassed (when I realize a "no" would have sufficed), and he knows he screwed up and that I just displayed some pretty strong negative reaction to him when he apparently thought things were going well, and... sigh.

 

Somewhat relatedly, I've noticed that the religious emphasis on gender segregation makes the sexism worse in both directions. If all women do is hang out with other women and only discuss their negative experiences with men with other women, they're going to start thinking negative things about all men. The whole "us vs them" attitude. Same thing happens with men, when they tell each other their women problems and commiserate with each other about how awful all women are. And now that they expect bad things from each other, it's self fulfilling prophecy. I have enough male friends (which my mom has often told me is a bad thing because I act like "one of the guys" and don't remember that all men are a threat that I must protect myself from) that when I have a bad experience with a man, I frequently end up complaining about it to a man. They don't always back up everything I feel, and can explain to me when the guy was dangerous vs just being clueless, and how I could have handled things better. Sometimes my guy friends will also point out warning signs that I've missed from guys who are more dangerous than I'd realized, so when they do tell me that I'm wrong to be so negative about some particular guy, I know that I'm actually wrong and they're not just defending their own gender.

[blackpudd1n]

Sexism will be everywhere. Religion tends to have more.

 

One thing you have to keep in mind is the sexual persecution complex some women have towards men ( Like this classic gem ) where women will interpret even the slightest sexual thought a man might have as being sexist. For every woman that experiences legitimate discrimination for being female, there always seems to be an insane girl who thinks that every guy who asks her out for coffee is trying to rape her or something equally ridiculous.

 

One thing I keep hoping the feminist movement will put a bigger emphasis on is teaching women not to be sexist towards their own gender or towards men. At least half the pressure I've had to "act my gender" comes from women, not men.

 

On the harassment issues, I think the sex-positive movement helps with that a little bit; focusing on "yes means yes" instead of "defend yourself from the scary guys" would help a lot. Hopefully, once women and men realize that it's ok for women to be enthusiastic, willing partners, men will feel less compelled to do creepy/coercive things to "score". Part of my own issues with men is that I was never taught about "no means no" because it was all abstinence until marriage, so when a guy makes unwanted and stupid advances (like a guy who's much bigger than me that I don't know very well invading my personal space while we're totally alone to kiss me on the mouth without ever having asked or even clearly indicated romantic interest), my first thought is "oh god, how can I run away before he hurts me" and not "uh, i should tell him no so that he'll stop" because it doesn't occur to me that he would respect my no. Which just makes my freaking out and jerking away more awkward for both of us, because now I'm scared and embarrassed (when I realize a "no" would have sufficed), and he knows he screwed up and that I just displayed some pretty strong negative reaction to him when he apparently thought things were going well, and... sigh.

 

Somewhat relatedly, I've noticed that the religious emphasis on gender segregation makes the sexism worse in both directions. If all women do is hang out with other women and only discuss their negative experiences with men with other women, they're going to start thinking negative things about all men. The whole "us vs them" attitude. Same thing happens with men, when they tell each other their women problems and commiserate with each other about how awful all women are. And now that they expect bad things from each other, it's self fulfilling prophecy. I have enough male friends (which my mom has often told me is a bad thing because I act like "one of the guys" and don't remember that all men are a threat that I must protect myself from) that when I have a bad experience with a man, I frequently end up complaining about it to a man. They don't always back up everything I feel, and can explain to me when the guy was dangerous vs just being clueless, and how I could have handled things better. Sometimes my guy friends will also point out warning signs that I've missed from guys who are more dangerous than I'd realized, so when they do tell me that I'm wrong to be so negative about some particular guy, I know that I'm actually wrong and they're not just defending their own gender.

 

Sometimes when I read your posts, I have to remind myself that I did not write them!

[darwinfish]

I agree with everything that VF wrote above. There's usually a few cases that grab everyone's attention, but I'd say by and large the fear and paranoia that is fed women about men is uncalled for. The way it seems is that if a man and a women hang out together too long, the guy will eventually expect sex from her, and if that doesn't happen that he'll take it by force. I don't want to diminish true issues of either sexual abuse or sexism. I'm sure that if I was making a women feel insecure, I'd easily correct my behavior is something was said to me.

 

I'm also glad to hear that the responses from women to this thread have all been positive with their experiences in the atheist community. I feel like there's something of a response to the moral argument with this.

[blackpudd1n]

I agree with everything that VF wrote above. There's usually a few cases that grab everyone's attention, but I'd say by and large the fear and paranoia that is fed women about men is uncalled for. The way it seems is that if a man and a women hang out together too long, the guy will eventually expect sex from her, and if that doesn't happen that he'll take it by force. I don't want to diminish true issues of either sexual abuse or sexism. I'm sure that if I was making a women feel insecure, I'd easily correct my behavior is something was said to me.

 

I'm also glad to hear that the responses from women to this thread have all been positive with their experiences in the atheist community. I feel like there's something of a response to the moral argument with this.

 

Yes, I agree, Illusion- VF's post above was excellent. I was too tired at the time to write anything more intelligent, but VF has espoused my own exact same views.

 

What I like about the atheist community is the level of respect that I have experienced, particularly on this forum. All my life I have wanted to be respected for my own thoughts and not the way I look. I do have some male atheist friends, and they respect me for my mind, and how I think; my body and how I look is a secondary concern. After years of sexual harrassment in the workplace, and being told by christian men and women what my place is due to my gender, it is just so damn refreshing and empowering to be respected in such a way.

 

It is one of the reasons I love my fiancee so much, whom is also an atheist. He sees my mind, he loves that I think and know my own mind. And I have never felt more of a woman.

 

One area of personal interest, for me, is in the men who supported the feminist and equal rights movement. They are never heard of, and I think that that is a travesty. At my university we can create a specialised unit of study for ourselves, under guidance of a lecturer, and I would like to do so. I'd like to look at the role of supportive men to the cause, find out who they are, what they did, and why they were supportive. I think it would be fascinating.