They (Christians) Keep Telling Me I Made A "choice"!?!

[deconverted]

It's been about a year now since I left Christianity, and there are multiple things I keep struggling with when it comes to talking and debating with my Christian friends. One thing in particular always comes up, and I simply don't know how to convince the Christians that they are completely off base. They always seem to boil down our discussion to me making a choice that I either 1) rejected god or 2) that I chose hell over god (or something along those two theme's). Even my own wife, who has stuck by my side in a very positive way throughout my deconversion, just told me the other night that I actually choose hell over heaven (god). I thought she and I were past some of these issues, but apparently not. Anyway, I have tried to tell my friends (and wife) that there is no choice about it. A choice constitute two (or more) options. I simply don't believe in God, therefore, how can there even be a choice when one of the choices doesn't really exist? I try to compare it to Santa Clause or the Easter bunny... I ask them, could they "choose" to actually believe in Santa or the Easter Bunny? Of course they can't choose to believe in those characters. They all know those are simply fairytails and that those figures don't really exist. They aren't making a choice to not believe in Santa, because there simply is no choice. I have also said things to them like, when I asked my wife to marry me, she had a choice in the matter. There were two real options...either marry me or not. Of the two choices, they both were real options. We see people get married all the time, and we know marriage really exists. We also see single people all the time and we know that being single really exists (we were living proof that being single existed before we got married). When they persist on claiming that I really did make a choice, whether I acknowledge it or not, I ask them if making a choice where extortion is involved is really a choice or not. I give them an example of someone with a gun robbing them and saying "give me your money, or else I'll shoot you and take it anyway". I guess technically the robber is giving them a choice, but it's a no win choice...you are going to loose your money one way or another. It's a forced choice...extortion, or coersion. Even after these arguments, they still don't buy into any of it and are still convinced I am really choosing to reject God as if he exists. I just feel like I want to bang my head into a wall. What am I missing here? Has anyone ever really successfully explained to a Christian the reality that there is no "choice" to believe in God? If so, how did you do it?

 

And for crying out loud, who in their right mind would actually choose hell over heaven if they both really existed??? (I know, many of you have no desire to worship the god of the bible, even if he did exist, but that is kind of another topic)

[freeasabird]

It's part of their indoctrination. Most of them can't possibly admit to themselves, cognitively speaking, that there are people who actually don't believe or else they would have to consider the possiblity themselves that there is no god, or even that Christianity is wrong. Just keep repeating your mantra you already have been doing that belief is the the conclusion of the sum of our experiences, no more, no less. Theoretical Bullshit has a great video on youtube about this. Maybe send that to them to watch.

[Overcame Faith]

You didn't make a choice. Rather, you reached a conclusion. Big difference.

[London]

I agree, you did make a choice, to see the truth. You woke up to reality and decided to stop lying to yourself. They made a choice to be fooled.

xians will never agree to anything other than god. It's a waste of time trying to convince them since their mission and only purpose on earth is to convince others.

[♦ ficino ♦]

I agree. If someone says that a given geometric figure is both a triangle and a square at the same time and under the same set of relations, can you make a choice whether or not to believe that it is both at once? So, if the Bible says both that Judas bought the Field of Blood (Acts) and that the priests bought the Field of Blood (Matthew), can you make a choice about believing that both statements are true? And on from there...

[jackbauer]

If only it were as simple as making a choice, but it's more than "I choose heaven" or "I choose hell". The only way to avoid hell is to devote your earthly life to the myth which assumes you'll go to hell (there's no proof until it's too late). And isn't it convienient that the only alternative to a lake of fire is Heaven? A better alternative would be just letting you not exist if you don't want heaven (or if god doesn't want you in Heaven). Not ideal, but it's more merciful than eternal torture.

This video illustrates it perfectly.

 

I've heard all of the typical responses. A favorite seems to be comparing sinning to jumping off a cliff. What Christians don't realize is gravity is a natural law which can be tested and proven. There is no way to test if sinning can lead to you going to hell when you die. But it's not untypical for cult leaders to compare things that have been proven to things that aren't proven.

[par4dcourse]

Most of what is imagined by xians to be hell is a weird combination of a few bible verses (most of which is in Revelation and we know that guy was trippin'), and Dante's inferno.

Fire was the worst thing the goat fuc herders could imagine, thus eternal burning.

[midniterider]

It's been about a year now since I left Christianity, and there are multiple things I keep struggling with when it comes to talking and debating with my Christian friends. One thing in particular always comes up, and I simply don't know how to convince the Christians that they are completely off base. They always seem to boil down our discussion to me making a choice that I either 1) rejected god or 2) that I chose hell over god (or something along those two theme's). Even my own wife, who has stuck by my side in a very positive way throughout my deconversion, just told me the other night that I actually choose hell over heaven (god). I thought she and I were past some of these issues, but apparently not. Anyway, I have tried to tell my friends (and wife) that there is no choice about it. A choice constitute two (or more) options. I simply don't believe in God, therefore, how can there even be a choice when one of the choices doesn't really exist? I try to compare it to Santa Clause or the Easter bunny... I ask them, could they "choose" to actually believe in Santa or the Easter Bunny? Of course they can't choose to believe in those characters. They all know those are simply fairytails and that those figures don't really exist. They aren't making a choice to not believe in Santa, because there simply is no choice. I have also said things to them like, when I asked my wife to marry me, she had a choice in the matter. There were two real options...either marry me or not. Of the two choices, they both were real options. We see people get married all the time, and we know marriage really exists. We also see single people all the time and we know that being single really exists (we were living proof that being single existed before we got married). When they persist on claiming that I really did make a choice, whether I acknowledge it or not, I ask them if making a choice where extortion is involved is really a choice or not. I give them an example of someone with a gun robbing them and saying "give me your money, or else I'll shoot you and take it anyway". I guess technically the robber is giving them a choice, but it's a no win choice...you are going to loose your money one way or another. It's a forced choice...extortion, or coersion. Even after these arguments, they still don't buy into any of it and are still convinced I am really choosing to reject God as if he exists. I just feel like I want to bang my head into a wall. What am I missing here? Has anyone ever really successfully explained to a Christian the reality that there is no "choice" to believe in God? If so, how did you do it?

 

And for crying out loud, who in their right mind would actually choose hell over heaven if they both really existed??? (I know, many of you have no desire to worship the god of the bible, even if he did exist, but that is kind of another topic)

 

You can't make them think any different. If the change is to come in their minds it will come on its own.

[mymistake]

It's been about a year now since I left Christianity, and there are multiple things I keep struggling with when it comes to talking and debating with my Christian friends.

 

Why bother? I would just tell them it's private and you don't want to talk about it. When my wife bugs me about it I tell her I don't want to get into that because I'm not trying to destroy her faith. I don't find anything good comes from offline debates. If it's not in writing you can't even confront the Christians with their tricks. They will just play games and pretend they don't in an endless circle of waste.

 

One thing in particular always comes up, and I simply don't know how to convince the Christians that they are completely off base.

 

That might not be possible. Clearly Christians do become ex-Christians but it's quite rare for that to happen due to arguments. Mostly it's due to studying the Bible. A Christian who is ignorant of logic might be immune.

 

They always seem to boil down our discussion to me making a choice that I either 1) rejected god or 2) that I chose hell over god (or something along those two theme's). Even my own wife, who has stuck by my side in a very positive way throughout my deconversion, just told me the other night that I actually choose hell over heaven (god). I thought she and I were past some of these issues, but apparently not. Anyway, I have tried to tell my friends (and wife) that there is no choice about it.

 

Last time that happened I pointed to a picture frame and asked if she could see it as round. If it actually looks to you like a rectangle then how can you see it as round? You could choose to say it is round but wouldn't that by lying? You could act like it is round but you would know that you don't actually see that. She didn't have a good comeback and after a while dropped it. I'm sure it won't be the last time we cover that ground.

 

A choice constitute two (or more) options. I simply don't believe in God, therefore, how can there even be a choice when one of the choices doesn't really exist? I try to compare it to Santa Clause or the Easter bunny... I ask them, could they "choose" to actually believe in Santa or the Easter Bunny? Of course they can't choose to believe in those characters. They all know those are simply fairytails and that those figures don't really exist. They aren't making a choice to not believe in Santa, because there simply is no choice. I have also said things to them like, when I asked my wife to marry me, she had a choice in the matter. There were two real options...either marry me or not. Of the two choices, they both were real options. We see people get married all the time, and we know marriage really exists. We also see single people all the time and we know that being single really exists (we were living proof that being single existed before we got married). When they persist on claiming that I really did make a choice, whether I acknowledge it or not, I ask them if making a choice where extortion is involved is really a choice or not. I give them an example of someone with a gun robbing them and saying "give me your money, or else I'll shoot you and take it anyway". I guess technically the robber is giving them a choice, but it's a no win choice...you are going to loose your money one way or another. It's a forced choice...extortion, or coersion. Even after these arguments, they still don't buy into any of it and are still convinced I am really choosing to reject God as if he exists. I just feel like I want to bang my head into a wall. What am I missing here? Has anyone ever really successfully explained to a Christian the reality that there is no "choice" to believe in God? If so, how did you do it?

 

You are missing the fact that there is only so much you can do. Yes there is a way to explain it. No they might not be a way to make them understand. In order for them to really understand they have to risk becoming an ex-Christian. All the fear and indoctrination drives them to be close minded.

 

And for crying out loud, who in their right mind would actually choose hell over heaven if they both really existed??? (I know, many of you have no desire to worship the god of the bible, even if he did exist, but that is kind of another topic)

 

This doctrine was invented to excuse God's evil. The Bible makes God an evil monster. Christians don't want God to be an evil monster so they blame God's victims. The people going to hell choose that fate so -presto!- it's not God's fault. There is nothing to see here - keep moving.