Help, My Mom Wants Me To Read Norman Geisler!

[MrsRoper]

Yesterday, my mom asked me to read, I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist by Norman L. Geisler and Frank Turek (Mar 12, 2004). After I got off the phone with her, I did a little research on the book and realized that reading it, for me, would be an exercise in futility. When she first brought it up, she acted like she didn’t understand the book and that she needed me to explain it her. But then when I called her back to explain to her the reasons why I wouldn’t be reading it, she started telling me how it was the greatest book ever, and how she was learning so much. I guess I want to explain to you guys what I explained to her, and see if I represented myself correctly & the study of apologetics correctly & what your opinions are.

 

First, I tried to get her to understand that Apologetics is nothing more than a rhetorical device used to defend a belief, it’s not a scientific study based on facts. Usually, there is a presuppositional belief the author already has before he attempts to defend that belief. Then I told her I did a little research online, I read both the positive and negative reviews on amazon.com. I watched some of Frank Turek's debate with Christopher Hitchens and I went to Norman Geisler’s website. I told her it concerns me that Norman Geisler left his last seminary because he has an intellectual disagreement with fellow Christian Clark Pinnock’s work. It shows me that Geisler may be dishonest intellectually if he can’t even teach at the same school where he disagrees with someone, and that I questioned his character.

 

Then I told her that I took apologetics in graduate school (for the thousandth time). This is pretty much a dead philosophy and the only people studying or writing about it are fundamentalist Christians. My point was, if I’ve already studied what some of history’s greatest minds have said on the subject, why would I need to backtrack and study guy who is reinventing the wheel? (I already thought the whole study was garbage when I was a practicing Christian. It’s about as useful as Systematic Theology.) She countered with, well how could your study have been beneficial if you were learning from atheists? Which is a fallacy she made up in her own head because I went to an extremely conservative evangelical seminary. (Like, I wish my class was taught by an atheist.) She asked me what I thought of Aquinas and St. Augustine, because I brought them up & I said, I think they were geniuses, but they are limited to their time period because we have so much more evidence about science and history than was available to them.

 

I then told her, look I think if you are actually interested in what atheists believe you should read an atheist author. I said, first of all the very title of his book is misleading. As far as being an atheist personally for me, faith is a non issue. I don’t use any faith to believe in atheism, I simply do not believe in a personal god. Just like you do not believe in Allah or Zeus. I think this Geisler character is misrepresenting what atheists believe because he is a Christian writing for Christians. Then she said, but he was an unbeliever and then found Christ. I tried to explain to her how this anecdote does not prove that what he is writing now is truth. What does that even mean, that he didn’t believe as a teenager and then decided to believe? It doesn’t do anything to prove that he is representing about atheism is truth, but rather his opinion.

 

Here is where the problem starts because then she is accused me of being close-minded. (Which is funny because she wouldn’t even read Bart Ehrman because he’s an agnostic.) I was like, how is it close minded to not want to read a book that contains information that I am already aware of? My point is, if you want to understand cosmology, read a book written by cosmologists. If you want to understand what atheists may think or believe, ask one. I said, look I am open but my time is valuable that and I’d rather read something that is going to add to my lack of knowledge in areas I care about. She was like, but it’s so good and I’m learning so much & I was just like, look things can look intellectual and sound smart & that’s a really good cover for perpetuating bullshit.

 

Then we got to the bottom line. Mom, do you just want me to read this because you think he has some sort of new evidence that is going to convince me of the truth of Christianity? She said no, she wasn’t trying to convince me. (I’m not totally convinced of that because I suspect that in her head I am still saved and that I will find my way back into the fold.) I was just like, look, I am open to any question you have, I will answer and discuss anything. I even said, I respect that your faith in God is based on your personal experiences. I have no issue with that, but if you want to represent that you have evidence in the Christian gods it to be actual evidence and not mental gymnastics, anecdotes and misleading logical fallacies. And also, that I was also open to us never discussing religion at all ever, if that would make her more comfortable. We actually had a good conversation, and things were fine, but weighs on my mind today.

 

Would you guys have handled this differently? Is my opinion of apologetics off? Am I really being closeminded, and are there times in life when it is okay to be closeminded?

[Ouroboros]

Yesterday, my mom asked me to read, I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist by Norman L. Geisler and Frank Turek (Mar 12, 2004). After I got off the phone with her, I did a little research on the book and realized that reading it, for me, would be an exercise in futility. When she first brought it up, she acted like she didn’t understand the book and that she needed me to explain it her. But then when I called her back to explain to her the reasons why I wouldn’t be reading it, she started telling me how it was the greatest book ever, and how she was learning so much.

She was lying then or trying to trick you. That's not very honest.

[oddbird1963]

Maybe you could ask here which items in the book are somehow "new" or "fresh" points in favor of theism? That way you indicate openness without committing to the busy work of rehashing apologetics 101.

[♦ ficino ♦]

How long is the book? I might read it if it's not too long, but I agree that it's not worth investing a lot of time on.

 

BTW it sounds as though you handled the conversation extremely well, and a lot better than conversations many of my friends get into with their mothers. I am also amazed at how you can remember so much of it! I guess forgetting what was said is a guy thing

 

Cheers

[MrsRoper]

ouroboros: I should have just called her out on that!

 

oddbird1963: good point, but she wouldn't be able to answer that

 

ficino: as far as my memory, this post is just way too long. Looks like I caught my own case of verbal diarrhea! I can see that everyone seems to be just as bored w apologetics as I am.

[♦ ficino ♦]

I think apologetics is great fun, actually, although I doubt I would read a 400 or 500-page fundy book on it!

[ConureDelSol]

She wants you to read a book that's name is a phrase that Christians use that I HATE? I can already tell it's a waste of time to read. Based on what you've said already, I think she secretly thinks that it will help you see the "Truth" and bring you back into the fold. My dad is trying to get me to read "Mere Christianity" and "The Case for Christ" right now. I already know what kind of content is in them, I already know the problems with the books, so why should I bother reading them? I know there's nothing convincing in them and I've come to that conclusion through research on my own, not because I'm just being a jerk and refusing to read his books.

[MrsRoper]

It's like they are already convinced of something, then they read a book that confirms their conviction & they think if we read it it will convince us too. How do you argue with this?

 

No matter how many times I tell my mother I entered the study of the bible open and honestly, and let my actual bible study change my belief systems - that NO ONE convinced me to become atheist. She just refuses to believe me. She believes that anti intellectual bullshit that people study too hard and lose their faith. Why don't they question why smart people, with character & integrity shed faith because it's a hoax? Why? I mean this Geisler guy may have a PhD but he doesn't seem to be a great mind to me, with a compelling argument.

 

She tells me, I am truth seeker and that I've always sought the truth, but she dismisses that I don't see Christianity as he truth at all. It's a paradox, at least she still loves me and is working on respecting me, I give her a lot of credit for that.

 

CS Lewis bores the shit out of me!!!

[MrsRoper]

RANT: and stop telling me what the bibe says! I know what he bibe says and I couldn't give a rats ass!!!! You understand the bible because of ur stupid simple faith, but me with my tawdry masters degree couldn't possibly understand it!!! END RANT

[Guest Xtech]

Impressive! You handled that really well, and you are correct about apologetics being written for those who already believe, and the tricky rhetorical devices it employs. Apologetics has nothing to do with truth,

 

My mother has been sending me similar stuff for years, it is often near death experience stuff or stories about how someone survived a tornado because of God's intervention (never mind those that were killed) and when I visit her I go to church with her. For the most part we don't really talk about it any more.

[MrsRoper]

Impressive! You handled that really well, and you are correct about apologetics being written for those who already believe, and the tricky rhetorical devices it employs. Apologetics has nothing to do with truth,

 

My mother has been sending me similar stuff for years, it is often near death experience stuff or stories about how someone survived a tornado because of God's intervention (never mind those that were killed) and when I visit her I go to church with her. For the most part we don't really talk about it any more.

 

Is there any information out there that can explain to them that apologetics is useless in a way that they would understand and accept? My mom thinks she is gaining insight, and I think she is just wasting her time reading this garbage - is there a happy medium?

[FeelHappy]

I guess I'm different, but perhaps that's because of how much pressure my family can put on me. They constantly worry about my soul so I'll read the stuff just to get them off my back (assuming that its pretty short).

[♦ ficino ♦]

My dad is trying to get me to read "Mere Christianity" and "The Case for Christ" right now. I already know what kind of content is in them, I already know the problems with the books, so why should I bother reading them? I know there's nothing convincing in them and I've come to that conclusion through research on my own, not because I'm just being a jerk and refusing to read his books.

 

Yes, Lewis' arguments are quite poor.

[Kurari]

No, I wouldn't have handled it differently. You did AWESOME.

 

But some people just won't take awesome, and we wonder if there was some other way we could have said things that would have turned on that lightbulb over their heads.

 

The truth is, there isn't. You were clear, concise, and honest. But that light bulb over your mom's head has a barricade she throws up when you reach for the chain to her lightbulb and enlighten her. That barricade is made of apologetics, lies, and accusations that YOU are the one who's close-minded and blah blah blah.

 

Until she is willing to actually listen, no amount of clarity is going to get through that.

[MrsRoper]

No, I wouldn't have handled it differently. You did AWESOME.

 

But some people just won't take awesome, and we wonder if there was some other way we could have said things that would have turned on that lightbulb over their heads.

 

The truth is, there isn't. You were clear, concise, and honest. But that light bulb over your mom's head has a barricade she throws up when you reach for the chain to her lightbulb and enlighten her. That barricade is made of apologetics, lies, and accusations that YOU are the one who's close-minded and blah blah blah.

 

Until she is willing to actually listen, no amount of clarity is going to get through that.

 

I guess what you are saying is my attitude about almost all Christians, which is really why I am quite happy not to have to associate with many anymore in my day-to-day life. I keep hoping because I am never going to stop engaging with my mother who I love. I guess I can only hold my ground, stand for reality and be patient.

[mymistake]

It's like they are already convinced of something, then they read a book that confirms their conviction & they think if we read it it will convince us too. How do you argue with this?

 

You don't. They are just expressing emotional reinforcement to validate what they already believe. They are not going to let reason change their mind and you are not going to let nonsense change your mind. It's an all around waste of time.

 

No matter how many times I tell my mother I entered the study of the bible open and honestly, and let my actual bible study change my belief systems - that NO ONE convinced me to become atheist. She just refuses to believe me. She believes that anti intellectual bullshit that people study too hard and lose their faith. Why don't they question why smart people, with character & integrity shed faith because it's a hoax? Why?

 

Because they are afraid of losing their salvation. They are afraid of "lies told by the devil". You use to be Christian - you remember how it was.

[mcdaddy]

Very few people can be lead to where we're at. it has to come from within, the search for truth has to be paramount to anything else. and most would rather be comfortable in a lie than uncomfortable (for some) in the truth.

[MrsRoper]

I agree mcdaddy. Which is why I would never try to evangelize deconversion. I think I am looking for better was to adequately represent my lack of belief when I am forced to have these kinds of discussions.

 

Its funny they keep preaching the same ole song. And I still get stumped by it! I can't get my mind to go backwards anymore.

[MrsRoper]

And another thing: I think Apologetics should be an actual Apology to me for teaching me all this bullshit in the first place!

 

Sorry guys, I am a touch balls out crazy today.

[Guest Xtech]

Impressive! You handled that really well, and you are correct about apologetics being written for those who already believe, and the tricky rhetorical devices it employs. Apologetics has nothing to do with truth,

 

My mother has been sending me similar stuff for years, it is often near death experience stuff or stories about how someone survived a tornado because of God's intervention (never mind those that were killed) and when I visit her I go to church with her. For the most part we don't really talk about it any more.

 

Is there any information out there that can explain to them that apologetics is useless in a way that they would understand and accept? My mom thinks she is gaining insight, and I think she is just wasting her time reading this garbage - is there a happy medium?

 

There is, counter-apologetics, but she won't read it, judging by what you have written.

[CatholiKitty]

Read through it with a red ink pen and possibly some extra sheets of paper. Note and comment on everything he gets wrong about atheists then mail that copy to your mom. I'm sure that she's going to read the book again sometime if she loves it so much, so she may as well read an updated version.

[owen652]

Read through it with a red ink pen and possibly some extra sheets of paper. Note and comment on everything he gets wrong about atheists then mail that copy to your mom. I'm sure that she's going to read the book again sometime if she loves it so much, so she may as well read an updated version.

 

great idea, very subversive

[MrsRoper]

Read through it with a red ink pen and possibly some extra sheets of paper. Note and comment on everything he gets wrong about atheists then mail that copy to your mom. I'm sure that she's going to read the book again sometime if she loves it so much, so she may as well read an updated version.

 

great idea, very subversive

 

Except I'd rather poke my eye out with a fork then have to read this garbage! And she would never read my responses, would probably just tell me I don't understand because I need the spirit. I'm sorry I fell into this conversation with her to begin with, it was dumb of me.

[flockoff]

Have you tried making deals with her?

 

As in, you'll agree to read Norman Geisler's book as long as she agrees to read Ehrman's and be lightly quizzed on it? Or you'll read this now, discuss it with her, and then no more religious discussion expressed or implied for the next twelve months?

[MrsRoper]

Have you tried making deals with her?

 

As in, you'll agree to read Norman Geisler's book as long as she agrees to read Ehrman's and be lightly quizzed on it? Or you'll read this now, discuss it with her, and then no more religious discussion expressed or implied for the next twelve months?

 

I get what you are saying. She will never read Bart Ehrman because he's not a Christian. Which is a shame because his books are basically a lay view of what we learn in seminary. It's really not too shocking stuff at all but standard biblical studies. And if anything Bart has a lot more faith in the historical Jesus than I do.

 

We actually ended our conversation on really good terms because I am basically insisting she respect my ex-Christian state. The thing that is hard, and here is where I can get myself into trouble eye rolling and sounding condescending: this woman raised me in the church, I understand her position & and then I went on and actually got educated in this stuff. She seems to think we are on two opposing sides that don't understand the other -- whereas I GET where she is coming from, how she thinks & what she believes. And I understand the bible and theology intellectually as well. But she hasn't learned the things that I have nor is she interested. It gets frustrating when she is telling shit I already know & reject, BUT she has absolutely no interest in the process I went through to grow out of Christian thinking.