Llwellyn Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 The Bible verse that tells Christians that we were never Christians is 1 John 2:19: "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would, no doubt, have continued with us. But they went out, that they might be made manifest, that they were not all of us." Ex-Christians, I know that this bugs a lot of you to be told you were never true Christians. It is especially insulting to some of you because you devoted so much of your life to being a devout disciple of Jesus, believing the right things, communing with Jesus, and behaving properly. Some of you were pastors and missionaries. I myself led Bible studies in high school, attended a Christian college, and had daily quiet times -- just JC and me. But in a way, it is kind of a complement for them to tell you that you never were a true Christian. It is saying that you never had the essential character flaw which would permit you to be a true Christian. If you were never a true Christian, this means that you could never swallow the ignorance, hatred, superstition and illogic of Christianity. Even when you thought you were a Christian, you were better than the religion and never truly sunk to its level, even though it appeared so. I would be insulted if someone told me that I had at one time been a true Christian. Because that would mean that it was within me at the time to believe in hell, the atonement, etc. I only thought I was a Christian, and when the time came that I focused my attention on the religion's obnoxious doctrines, I realized that I was never a true Christian. I celebrate that all along I had a functioning conscience, a human heart that always beat inside of me, even though I appeared from the outside to be a Christian. And then, when people try to bring you back into the fold, and welcome you as the parable father welcomes back his prodigal son, you can tell them that it is futile and can quote the following verse: "It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace." Hebrews 6:4-6 (NIV) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overcame Faith Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 Interestingly, there was one Christian (I can't remember the name) fairly recently who used Hebrews 6:4-6 as an enticement for telling us that we were never true Christians. His reasoning was that if we were never true Christians, then the verse in Hebrews did not apply to us and we could come back into the fold. As I recall, there were no takers. No matter what anyone says nor what the bible says, I know I was a true believing Christian. I bought into it all and believed the bible to be the living word of god. I know this because until my faith broke, I was literally unable to see all the problems in the bible that I came to see after I had overcome my faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 The comeback is "In that case you also are not a Real True Christian because they must not exist." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lunaticheathen Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 I actually do believe I was never christian - it just took me a bit to realize it. Whatever divine thing I believed in all of my life, it was not the bible god. I read about him, and couldn't believe I had met such a hateful thing. I've never been baptized, in water or whatever sad excuse for a "spirit" they claim. When someone says I was never a true christian, I thank him/her. What I actually hate more is that they assume I didn't try hard enough. I was never christian, but it damn sure wasn't for lack of trying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dyanaprajna0 Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 But in a way, it is kind of a complement for them to tell you that you never were a true Christian. It is saying that you never had the essential character flaw which would permit you to be a true Christian. If you were never a true Christian, this means that you could never swallow the ignorance, hatred, superstition and illogic of Christianity. Even when you thought you were a Christian, you were better than the religion and never truly sunk to its level, even though it appeared so. I would be insulted if someone told me that I had at one time been a true Christian. Because that would mean that it was within me at the time to believe in hell, the atonement, etc. I only thought I was a Christian, and when the time came that I focused my attention on the religion's obnoxious doctrines, I realized that I was never a true Christian. I celebrate that all along I had a functioning conscience, a human heart that always beat inside of me, even though I appeared from the outside to be a Christian. You, my friend, have just made one of the most profound statements on this topic that I have ever heard. I salute you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hereticzero Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 How do you say 'thank you' when someone tells you this wonderful news? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShackledNoMore Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 The existence of "True Christians," heretics, and those who profess to be christians but are not truly christians implies the existence of the christian god. This being fantastical, it only makes sense that those who self identify as christians would be christians, especially since christianity varies geographically, temporally, and has fractured into many sects, often mutually exclusive, which do not offer any compelling reason to accept one over another as "True Christianity." In a sense, I really think that most of us were "Truer" christians then them: Suppose that christianity had turned out not to be nonsense and really had held water. We who really questioned and investigated would have been the ones to have the shot of cutting through the bullshit and finding the Truth, not the ones who blindly embrace whatever they happened to be indoctrinated in, or whatever they encountered that exploited their own psyches. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FeelHappy Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 The denomination I grew up with would say that I was a true christian but turned my back on god. The never a true christian comes from a more Calvinist mindset, basically Perseverance of the Saints, if god saved you then he could keep you in the fold, for the people who seemed to be a christian but then left, to them the only possibility was they never were a christian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeCoastie Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 Ugh. I find this one of the most belittling and insulting things Christians throw at us. I'm sure most of us felt the same warm and fuzzies that Christians feel when they feel close to God. I prayed every day for over 20 years. They are past beliefs, but damn it I was sincerely faithful to Jesus. I would have died for him. I mentally left the faith unwillingly, kicking and screaming up until a certain point of self acceptance and enlightenment. My past faith still haunts me. I doubt I'll ever be over it %100, so don't tell me I was a phony. You only deny us because we are living evidence disproving your god. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akheia Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 It's a lot like when a long-married, well-respected couple gets divorced. Everybody else in the social group gets so threatened-feeling. It's really scary to realize that this couple got married in love, and vowed the same things everybody else did, and seemed so happy, and yet it fell apart. If even a seemingly solid couple like that could break up, what's that imply for all the other, far less idealized couples? If we were Real Christians™ and still left, then where does that leave the Christians now remaining? They really want there to be some deficiency that caused it, and that deficiency simply cannot be in the message. So it must be in the individual who left. Otherwise what's to stop the remaining Christians from falling away too? I think, too, that there's an element of control involved in these accusations, this idea that I must "prove" myself in order to be any sort of challenge to their faith. If I was never a true Christian, then they can safely discount anything I say criticizing their faith, because what do I know? But if they thought I really did know the true heart of Jesus and then turned away, that's really threatening. I genuinely think that the people who throw that "Real Christian" shit at us are terrified that we might actually have BEEN real Christians. I can feel a little sorry for that kind of fear. I remember all too well how much fear everybody I knew lived with. So I don't get too mad at them. I have been planning for a while to simply ask the next fundie who flings that tired old rag at me what's so scary about the idea that I might actually have been a fervent, on fire, dedicated believer who left the faith. I think an honest answer to that question would open a fascinating dialogue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Discern Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 As FeelHappy mentioned, this is just the Calvinist doctrine. Half of protestantism rejects calvinism. If I was never saved, how can they be sure they are saved at the moment? In 5 years, their faith could fall apart and their doctrine would insist that they too were never saved to begin with. Where is their assurance of salvation? I was continually taught that we can have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, and that we can have an assurance of salvation, and know that we are right with God. Romans 10:9: "if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved" Acts 16:31: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household" I did those things and I was baptised with water at an age of understanding, therefore according to those scriptures I was saved. But like many doctrines in the bible, you can find support for BOTH sides of the argument. Heck that's why people still debate over the "once saved, always saved" argument. God's 'inspired' book can't provide enough proof for one doctrine over the other! It's a mess and that's why we have hundreds of denominations. If Bible God exists he is a god of confusion, that's for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zephie Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 While I would love to take this as a compliment, I'm not sure I can. I do get where you are coming from. I know that I will be called a liar and that right now I do have to lie about things. I think where the insult comes in with this particular arguement is the attack on a person's character. Most of us fervently believed. We read the Bible, went to church, didn't smoke, drink, cuss, etc, etc, etc. So I do like where you are coming from. If I can get to the point in a debate where I can remember and acknowledge that scripture then based on that verse alone, no, I never was a Christian. Right now this whole process is a jumble of feelings, thoughts, experiences, and what not. It certainly would be easier to fire back with, "Yeah, I never was a Christian." However that would mean acknowledging the attacks on my character. I do not like to lie or compromise on parts of my integrity especially with those I love and care about. I do not like to be told that I am in "rebellion"-the sheer manipulativeness of that statement is enough to make me wilt back into non existence. I digress. I see where you are coming from and for those of you who have the backbone or have developed the backbone to say a statement, I applaud you. Hopefully, one day I will be one of you. For now, I'll just continue to get pissy when people use that arguement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lunaticheathen Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 Oh, I know they think I'm a liar and rebellious and all that shit (well, I can be rebellious, but that's not why I left christianity), but I know that the mere fact that I see that the teachings never got through, that I do not believe in Christianity, I'm being more honest with them than they've been with themselves their whole pathetic lives. I do not like people questioning my sincerity, however, and if they imply that even though I "might have prayed for the spirit", I wasn't sincere in that wish, I will rip them to pieces, and ask them who the fuck THEY think they are, questioning my experience (or lack thereof) with god, and ask them if they think they're Jesus, with the power and wisdom to judge me. They can fuck right off, they don't know my soul. They don't even know their own. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zephie Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 Oh, I know they think I'm a liar and rebellious and all that shit (well, I can be rebellious, but that's not why I left christianity), but I know that the mere fact that I see that the teachings never got through, that I do not believe in Christianity, I'm being more honest with them than they've been with themselves their whole pathetic lives. I do not like people questioning my sincerity, however, and if they imply that even though I "might have prayed for the spirit", I wasn't sincere in that wish, I will rip them to pieces, and ask them who the fuck THEY think they are, questioning my experience (or lack thereof) with god, and ask them if they think they're Jesus, with the power and wisdom to judge me. They can fuck right off, they don't know my soul. They don't even know their own. So wish I could +1 million for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llwellyn Posted March 14, 2012 Author Share Posted March 14, 2012 Rebellion to Yahweh is obedience to the human conscience. The Bible even says so: "There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death." Proverbs 14:12, 16:25. Obedience to God means doing what seems wrong to you. That is why Abraham was a hero of faith with the test involving Isaac -- he was willing to do something that to him seemed like a crime. Do everything that you believe to be vicious and you will be a good Christian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeCoastie Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 Rebellion to Yahweh is obedience to the human conscience. The Bible even says so: "There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death." Proverbs 14:12, 16:25. Obedience to God means doing what seems wrong to you. That is why Abraham was a hero of faith with the test involving Isaac -- he was willing to do something that to him seemed like a crime. Do everything that you believe to be vicious and you will be a good Christian. That verse works well in explaining the inhumanity in some Christians. I recall them using that to explain my disagreements with God. Who's probably right, me or the creator of the universe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LivingLife Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 I really have no issues when it is applied to me. I just tell them how deeply I was involved. The issue comes more when we critique the likes of the TBN circus and then folk say they are not TC™. It really boils down to fear that the doubts they have may lead them to where we are, free of conflicting dogma. Many have invested many years and simply ignore the counter evidence against their faith. I see it where I participate on another forum, the heathen know the scriptures better than the faithfools and the origins of many of their myths and their scriptures. The tactic that seems to work better than telling them they are deluded or duped, is confirm that god is real but only in their minds. So many varied opinions and interpretations is not due to some onion effect of the scriptures, it is simply how folk have connected non existent dots and have made it real to themselves. This variance proves There is no holy spirit by extension - no god scripture is errant and cannot be the word of god I think it scares them shitless when we describe in detail their experiences from a personal testimony from everything they experience like the anointing. When I wazawoo™ I prophesied - the congregation agreed I interpreted - the congregation said PTL or amen I brought a word of wisdom/knowledge - I had two to three confirmation witnesses. When I laid hands on folk - they were (supposedly) healed When I prayed for the gift of tongues for folk - they got it and usually fell down Yet here I am, a self proclaimed atheist. As has already been mentioned, many of us were uber dedicated and in our quest for truth™ we found the faith to be simple meadow muffins and realised we had been had. The other claim that we are rebellious and just wanted to sin fuck w/o consequence flies out the window as being married 26 years + 2 shacking up, I have a longer record than most and have never been unfaithful. Many of these pious folk when challenged what husband/wife they are on, never answer. All the bad shit like drugs and alcohol I did as a believer albeit a rebellious one. The reality, these folk live in glass houses with plenty of broken window panes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Babylonian Dream Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 I wish the Christians were right, to be honest, about me. I really wish I wasn't ever duped into believing that the heaven (archaic term for sky glorified into a magical second world) was where my magical king lived and I would also someday live. That the world was 6,000 years old. That I deserved death and hell because my great ancestor ate from a fruit my king told him not to because of a magical talking snake. The fact that I firmly believed that and tried to convince people that that was true, is quite frankly, embarrassing in retrospect. I feel like i used to be stupid or something. I know I was just really really really badly misinformed. But they're not right. The writers of the new testament wrote in an excuse saying, "yah know... I'm not so sure that people will believe this for long. It sounds kinda silly. Might want to add some pressure. So that they don't leave and so that their leaving doesn't cause others to leave." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 But in a way, it is kind of a complement for them to tell you that you never were a true Christian. It is saying that you never had the essential character flaw which would permit you to be a true Christian. If you were never a true Christian, this means that you could never swallow the ignorance, hatred, superstition and illogic of Christianity. Even when you thought you were a Christian, you were better than the religion and never truly sunk to its level, even though it appeared so. You have a great way to express this. It does reflect exactly where at when I was part of them. I had a saying I used to say with great irony towards them after having left their fold and realized something quite liberating within myself, "I'm more a Christian now that I'm not one than I ever was when I was one." You're right. I was never a True Believer, nor is that anything anyone should desire to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llwellyn Posted March 14, 2012 Author Share Posted March 14, 2012 The writers of the new testament wrote in an excuse saying, "yah know... I'm not so sure that people will believe this for long. It sounds kinda silly. Might want to add some pressure. So that they don't leave and so that their leaving doesn't cause others to leave." One of the reasons why Christianity is such a highly evolved and effective meme is that it was written over time, in a dialogue with competing memes. As arguments and issues were raised, they were addressed in the holy scripture. There was a time when that verse didn't exist, but it was written in there as an adaptation to an issue that had already presented itself: believers apostasizing. St. Paul and St. John were like badminton players - always making a return stroke whenever the birdie was returned over the net. They had a maximum opportunity to put into the Bible every verse that would be useful to confuse, confound, and enslave believers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llwellyn Posted March 14, 2012 Author Share Posted March 14, 2012 The other claim that we are rebellious and just wanted to sin fuck w/o consequence flies out the window as being married 26 years + 2 shacking up, I have a longer record than most and have never been unfaithful. To be honest, the copulating without consequences was one of the important reasons I left the faith. So, they're right about that part. But again, what they call wrong, I call right, and vice versa. "What people value highly is detestable in God’s sight." Luke 16:15. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LivingLife Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 To be honest, the copulating without consequences was one of the important reasons I left the faith. So, they're right about that part. But again, what they call wrong, I call right, and vice versa. "What people value highly is detestable in God’s sight." Luke 16:15. I realise that there are now young atheists and that is great. It is also great that folk realise sex is natural (just take precautions) and fun. Experience in relationships even if they fail and hurt helps to hone your skills in identifying the right mate. As a young man you wake with a morning glory and then you are not even allowed to jerk off. A relationship that lasts is not based on how good you are in bed together, that shit fades and if there is nothing else then there is nothing else, imaginary god or not. If your lover is your best friend, then it will and should last. At 22, I am afraid folk are not intellectually or emotionally mature to make that determination. There are exceptions but they are few and far between. If they challenge you with that line of sex, just ask them if they are jealous Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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