Another Facebook Discussion With My Former Church Members

[jblueep]

So, I'm doing a little "ninja" warfare with my friends from my former church I am trying to push the envelope a little more each time, but still holding back quite a bit so I don't run them off. It may not come to anything as far as their faith, but I love these people and I have to try

 

A little background on the characters (all friends from my former church).

 

David is a 20 year old who goes to church, but has always been a skeptic and a freethinker. He is one of the few people who know about my deconversion, and I believe that our recent talks have helped cement his atheist views and made him bold enough to come out. Plus he's young enough that he doesn't give a shit!

 

James is a 45 year old who I actually helped convert to xtianity 3 years ago. I have played the role of mentor, including marriage counseling for him and his wife which was successful in keeping them together. He does not know of my deconversion.

 

Perrianne is a 50 year old lady who is the pastor's wife and the youth and young adults pastor...therefore the relationship with David. She does not know of my deconversion.

 

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Facebook discussion below

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David: A more elaborate explanation for my statement earlier...it was a pretty vague. ---

 

"The irony of religion is that because of its power to divert man to destructive courses, the world could actually come to an end. The plain fact is, religion must die for mankind to live. The hour is getting very late to be able to indulge in having in key decisions made by religious people. By irrationalists, by those who would steer the ship of state not by a compass, but by the equivalent of reading the entrails of a chicken. George Bush prayed a lot about Iraq, but he didn't learn a lot about it. Faith means making a virtue out of not thinking. It's nothing to brag about. And those who preach faith, and enable and elevate it are intellectual slaveholders, keeping mankind in a bondage to fantasy and nonsense that has spawned and justified so much lunacy and destruction. Religion is dangerous because it allows human beings who don't have all the answers to think that they do. Most people would think it's wonderful when someone says, "I'm willing, Lord! I'll do whatever you want me to do!" Except that since there are no gods actually talking to us, that void is filled in by people with their own corruptions and limitations and agendas. And anyone who tells you they know, they just know what happens when you die, I promise you, you don't. How can I be so sure? Because I don't know, and you do not possess mental powers that I do not. The only appropriate attitude for man to have about the big questions is not the arrogant certitude that is the hallmark of religion, but doubt. Doubt is humble, and that's what man needs to be, considering that human history is just a litany of getting shit dead wrong. This is why rational people, anti-religionists, must end their timidity and come out of the closet and assert themselves. And those who consider themselves only moderately religious really need to look in the mirror and realize that the solace and comfort that religion brings you actually comes at a terrible price. If you belonged to a political party or a social club that was tied to as much bigotry, misogyny, homophobia, violence, and sheer ignorance as religion is, you'd resign in protest. To do otherwise is to be an enabler, a mafia wife, for the true devils of extremism that draw their legitimacy from the billions of their fellow travelers. If the world does come to an end here, or wherever, or if it limps into the future, decimated by the effects of religion-inspired nuclear terrorism, let's remember what the real problem was that we learned how to precipitate mass death before we got past the neurological disorder of wishing for it. That's it. Grow up or die." - Bill Maher - Riligulous

 

James: I am proud of my faith. I am proud to say I'm a Christian. I have seen things in this world from both sides of the coin, and I in my simple minded view am happy. I don't agree with organized religion but I do believe in God. My faith has help change people's lives for the better. Getting homeless people off the streets is something. I remember the choices I made when I was young, I wish I had faith then. I don't fell my Religion is sheer ignorance. I believe what I read in my Bible. Jesus is my savior. The text hasn't changed in over 2000 years. If I'm wrong I have spent years of my life being a better person and helping others. If I'm right i will spends eternity in heaven. My question to those who don't believe, what if your wrong?

 

David: What if YOU'RE wrong, James? I totally agree with what you said, Sebastian. I won't say that there isn't...but it's not logical and there is absolutely no way to prove it. I don't deny that people have done great things because of their faith, but those are works of men...not god. I can't think of a single instance in my life or anyone I know that has shared in great detail of their experience that could seemingly be orchestrated by a deity of some sort. But then again, it is merely perspective. You see what you will. That's the problem with most people of faith - closed-mindedness. If I could present the best argument for evolution with facts to prove it without equivocation, every devout christian I know would stick to their guns/god. It's bull shit

 

David: I'll believe in a god when someone can show me the proof of one...if the evidence is ample

 

David: And yes, he is an atheist Jew

 

David: There is absolutely no way to prove that Christianity is feasible. The story of Jesus isn't even an original one. The Egyptian's Book of the Dead talk about the god Horus, son of Osiris, born of a virgin mother. He was crucified, then two women, claimed to be witnesses, blah blah blah. It even mentions a resurrection and the promise of a second coming. And get this, it was written around 1500 B.C.! What can you say to that?

 

David: There are similar stories you can find in ancient Indian cultures that talk about that crap before the Egyptians...so they're wrong as well. If you really believe this stuff, you're ignorant. If you've done the studies to find out for yourself and STILL continue to believe, you're in denial and are maintaining your faith simply out of the fear of eternal damnation, or the promise of some place better than earth... and if in the latter case, why not just kill yourself?

 

James: Like I said if I'm wrong I've strived to be a better person and helped a lot of people along the way. I don't insult people for their belief. I also respect my parents enough not to disrespect their pastor and personal friends on a public forum. David it is obvious that you are very intelligent, but insulting people to prove your belief is unnessary you can argue a point without being rude. Those of us ignorant faith filled people will still love and pray for you.

 

Jason (me): While I think Bill Maher is mostly a jerk (clearly guilty of misogyny himself) and David's use of the word "ignorant" is likely over the top, I also think they have some valid points. The majority of believers worldwide (of all faiths) base their world view on things they have not objectively investigated. They take what they are taught and what they feel at face value and become ever more close minded in spite of (and closed to even considering) evidence to the contrary. Unfortunately, the further someone goes into faith, the more difficult it is to take a step back and be objective. It's a recipe for disaster and extremism (Christian crusades, African tribal genocide, Islamic terrorism, etc) because they keep doubling down on what is often a losing bet, becoming ever more desperate for it to be made true by forcing it on others. I guess what I am saying is this: If everyone judged their own faith by the same criteria they judge other faiths, the world would be a much friendlier place.

 

Perrianne: For me the evidence is sooooo incredibly ample--it fills me and I feel it jump inside me when David and I have a laugh together 'cause I think the phenom of David and his drumming and even his prove it to me personality is one of God's best brushstrokes and the Jesus I know would love hanging out with him.....I live in the momentary evidence and it feeds me and I don't worry about the historical evidence so much. What I don't respect much is Christians that would go to war over the concepts and historical evidence when they aren't living the reality in the moment! Those are the people that created a climate in which Bill Maher can do his thing..... (But even them, I wouldn't throw out with the trash--just redirect to inner realities....that are perceived with an open spirit not a closed mind....) Now I've had my rant of the day....

 

Perrianne: P.S. I respect you David for what you said about "when someone shows you evidence"--I really do---what you want is an authentic experience. I just think (and this is my personal opinion) that the evidence is spiritual not material. I probably also think that perhaps there might be a "seeking for it" aspect that it's hard to find something you're not looking for, but I wouldn't begin to judge the state of someone else's heart in terms of seeking. Truly.....

 

Perrianne: OK, last comment (sorry) then I'll go away! I just laughed cause I had the thought: What if someone said, "I'll believe in music if someone gives me ample evidence." I can hear you saying, "that's not at all the same," but in my world it is! LOL

 

Jason (me):

 

Perrianne, You said "I live in the momentary evidence and it feeds me and I don't worry about the historical evidence so much." I understand what you mean because I really know you That ability of yours to live in the moment is a wonder and a joy to your friends and family, but I disagree on the importance of the historical evidence. If one can not have confidence in something's origin, then how can they know what they are experiencing in the moment is genuine? To me, living in the moment clearly has value in many scenarios, but in the case of faith (and other areas, e.g. finances), it can easily be destructive because the moment is by definition out of context and can therefore be highly misleading. A simple example would be: if I have $500 in my wallet today, I might still be entirely bankrupt.

 

You said "...the evidence is spiritual not material". I have to say that I disagree entirely on this one. Most faiths make very specific material promises. In my opinion, if faith is never measured in the material, then it can never be proven true.

 

You said "I'll believe in music if someone gives me ample evidence". I'm interested to hear how you think this is the same as evidence for faith. Obviously, music can be physically heard, felt, and seen.

 

Perrianne: well, we'll agree to disagree....the power of human perception is strong and leaves great room for that.....I believe that even science shows that all things are spiritual. (you know that about me, J.) the message of quantum physics is that evidence is not "as we thought it was". This is facebook, not an apologetics session, so you'll forgive my passionate statements that could easily be torn about by a sheerly rational argument. Bottom line is a believe in God IS rational when you see another realm. I believe God is Spirit and has even manifested that in creation if we look deep enough. Again, J., you knew where I stood. I will never come to your side because that side leaves me bankrupt of joy and the things I have seen are more real to me than material evidence that is and then "isn't". It's not denying the realities...it's in believing in a higher reality!

 

Perrianne: Of course I care about historical evidence, but I care more about what is real in the heart right now...and people quibble over history rather than living in something real right now.

 

Perrianne: are you havin' fun yet, David? LOL

 

Jason (me): I think David is likely still sleeping We completely hijacked his status!

 

Perrianne: yes, we did---we've been known to hijack things, haven't we?

 

Perrianne: I actually was gonna say he's prob still sleeping!

 

Jason (me): Perrianne, you know I love you sis I would never try to tear you down. I think you are an amazing person because you choose every day to be who you are. I think James and Jennifer are amazing too because they choose to give themselves (to the homeless and many others). Any obviously David is amazing...for his hair if nothing else I am honored to call you my friends. How's that for a passionate statement? !

 

Perrianne: Well, I would call THAT living in the moment! LOL! That's what I meant! That $500 in your wallet is not banruptcy..... (?) ha ha ha

[Akheia]

My rent is more than $500, so if that's all there is in my wallet, then yes, I'm in trouble

 

If David made the original Maher quote as his status then it's certainly his church members' decision to stay FB friends and see what he's writing. They probably post lots of Christian crap--so they don't get to get pissy if he posts anti-religious things sometimes!

[jblueep]

My rent is more than $500, so if that's all there is in my wallet, then yes, I'm in trouble

 

If David made the original Maher quote as his status then it's certainly his church members' decision to stay FB friends and see what he's writing. They probably post lots of Christian crap--so they don't get to get pissy if he posts anti-religious things sometimes!

 

Yes, the Maher quote was his status. This is the first outright anti-religious thing he has posted...a coming out status.

[mcdaddy]

Well, Perrianne is just your typical blue pill person that would rather live a life of woo woo in delusional happiness than face the cold hard facts after swallowing the red pill. Theres not necessarily anything wrong with that, as long as she's not harming anyone in the process. I dont want anyone to be robbed of joy in this life. Thats why I dont talk about this stuff and prove why the bible's BS with my wife unless she drags it out of me. But I just simply want as few false beliefs as possible. Just me.

[Thought2Much]

Good on David for being brave enough to "come out." Jblueep, I'm not sure how you keep your cool in these discussions. Personally, I would find myself not replying to keep from saying something hurtful.

[jblueep]

Well, Perrianne is just your typical blue pill person that would rather live a life of woo woo in delusional happiness than face the cold hard facts after swallowing the red pill. Theres not necessarily anything wrong with that, as long as she's not harming anyone in the process. I dont want anyone to be robbed of joy in this life. Thats why I dont talk about this stuff and prove why the bible's BS with my wife unless she drags it out of me. But I just simply want as few false beliefs as possible. Just me.

 

The problem is that Perrianne is a wreck. She is incredibly insecure, yet she hugely influences others because she has such a big compensating personality. The shame is that she is incredible smart and would be an amazing college professor, etc. if she wasn't stuck in woo woo land.

[mcdaddy]

Well, Perrianne is just your typical blue pill person that would rather live a life of woo woo in delusional happiness than face the cold hard facts after swallowing the red pill. Theres not necessarily anything wrong with that, as long as she's not harming anyone in the process. I dont want anyone to be robbed of joy in this life. Thats why I dont talk about this stuff and prove why the bible's BS with my wife unless she drags it out of me. But I just simply want as few false beliefs as possible. Just me.

 

The problem is that Perrianne is a wreck. She is incredibly insecure, yet she hugely influences others because she has such a big compensating personality. The shame is that she is incredible smart and would be an amazing college professor, etc. if she wasn't stuck in woo woo land.

 

Well, this is basically what i just said in reply to another post, but we all get to create our own "meaning of life", so if she wants that to be her "meaning", then she should be afforded that. Until she uses the worldview to trample on the rights of others. Then she gets a "FAAALLCCAAAWWNN PAAAANNNCCCHHH".

[jblueep]

Good on David for being brave enough to "come out." Jblueep, I'm not sure how you keep your cool in these discussions. Personally, I would find myself not replying to keep from saying something hurtful.

 

I have to pick just a few areas to "attack". The temptation is definitely to unload on all the incorrect statements like "the bible hasn't changed in 2000 years", but a blitz strategy would close down any future opportunity to "plant seeds" (as xtianity is famous for preaching).

[mcdaddy]

But if she's influencing others, thats (in my mind) not necessarily anything inherently bad, if someone isnt rational enough to take a critical view at what she says, then thats their problem. If she wants to talk woo, let her talk woo, because a woo speaks woo to other woos, not non-woos. So us non-woos wont be persuaded by her wooiness, the only ppl she's influencing are pre-wooed woos.

[jblueep]

But if she's influencing others, thats (in my mind) not necessarily anything inherently bad, if someone isnt rational enough to take a critical view at what she says, then thats their problem. If she wants to talk woo, let her talk woo, because a woo speaks woo to other woos, not non-woos. So us non-woos wont be persuaded by her wooiness, the only ppl she's influencing are pre-wooed woos.

 

No argument there. I'm not an evangelist for atheism for sure. I mainly participated in this facebook discussion to support David. I am not going to go out and try to overtly deconvert anyone, but I am becoming less worried about hiding my deconversion.

[mcdaddy]

But if she's influencing others, thats (in my mind) not necessarily anything inherently bad, if someone isnt rational enough to take a critical view at what she says, then thats their problem. If she wants to talk woo, let her talk woo, because a woo speaks woo to other woos, not non-woos. So us non-woos wont be persuaded by her wooiness, the only ppl she's influencing are pre-wooed woos.

 

No argument there. I'm not an evangelist for atheism for sure. I mainly participated in this facebook discussion to support David. I am not going to go out and try to overtly deconvert anyone, but I am becoming less worried about hiding my deconversion.

 

Wish I could say I'm not worried about mine, as really only my wife (partially) and maybe my brother and best friend know. My mom knows I definitely dont agree with her uber-fundiness though. And I'm definitely not suggesting anyone not meet anyone in the 'arena of ideas' and debate and show the errors in another's thought process. You know where I'm coming from. The Golden Rule....

 

You do seem to be going about it in the best possible manner though from what ive read of your posts. Show em that atheists ARENT fetus-killing, poor-ridiculing bestial rapists. Cuz thats what most automatically assume.

[2Honest]

If she wants to talk woo, let her talk woo, because a woo speaks woo to other woos, not non-woos. So us non-woos wont be persuaded by her wooiness, the only ppl she's influencing are pre-wooed woos.

 

OMG this is hilarious!

[Positivist]

So, I'm doing a little "ninja" warfare with my friends from my former church

I made a Reader's Digest version:

 

D: Religion is irrational and dangerous.

Jm: Pascal's wager.

D: Experience does not prove you're right. Evidence does.

Jm: Religion helps people.

Ja: The outsider test for faith. Try it.

P: For me evidence is experience. Who cares if it's true--it's a great story.

Ja: Historical evidence and context matters and defines our present experience. Evidence matters.

P: I choose to disregard evidence in favor of feelings and subjective experience. I'm happier this way.

Ja: Making nice

P: Thank goodness this threat to my faith is over! Eek!

 

It's so fun to having these conversations. But it makes me wonder how long we can keep our deconversion under wraps!!! They're going to get suspicious....

[mcdaddy]

If she wants to talk woo, let her talk woo, because a woo speaks woo to other woos, not non-woos. So us non-woos wont be persuaded by her wooiness, the only ppl she's influencing are pre-wooed woos.

 

OMG this is hilarious!

 

It must be because its Dr. Seuss week at my 7 year olds school!!

[Thought2Much]

I made a Reader's Digest version:

 

D: Religion is irrational and dangerous.

Jm: Pascal's wager.

D: Experience does not prove you're right. Evidence does.

Jm: Religion helps people.

Ja: The outsider test for faith. Try it.

P: For me evidence is experience. Who cares if it's true--it's a great story.

Ja: Historical evidence and context matters and defines our present experience. Evidence matters.

P: I choose to disregard evidence in favor of feelings and subjective experience. I'm happier this way.

Ja: Making nice

P: Thank goodness this threat to my faith is over! Eek!

 

It's so fun to having these conversations. But it makes me wonder how long we can keep our deconversion under wraps!!! They're going to get suspicious....

 

Now THAT was funny.

[Akheia]

That was hilarious, Positivist!

[Positivist]

The problem is that Perrianne is a wreck. She is incredibly insecure, yet she hugely influences others because she has such a big compensating personality. The shame is that she is incredible smart and would be an amazing college professor, etc. if she wasn't stuck in woo woo land.

 

And this is one of the great tragedies of Christianity. It takes everything, from the best cuts of meat to the scraps off the floor and everything in between, and squirts out baloney and Spam.

 

Perianne, in her very presentation as a human being, screams silently from every unspoken verbal and nonverbal utterance, "Please don't tell me it's not true. I've given up everything for this."

 

I truly feel sorry for her.

[2Honest]

I made a Reader's Digest version:

 

D: Religion is irrational and dangerous.

Jm: Pascal's wager.

D: Experience does not prove you're right. Evidence does.

Jm: Religion helps people.

Ja: The outsider test for faith. Try it.

P: For me evidence is experience. Who cares if it's true--it's a great story.

Ja: Historical evidence and context matters and defines our present experience. Evidence matters.

P: I choose to disregard evidence in favor of feelings and subjective experience. I'm happier this way.

Ja: Making nice

P: Thank goodness this threat to my faith is over! Eek!

 

It's so fun to having these conversations. But it makes me wonder how long we can keep our deconversion under wraps!!! They're going to get suspicious....

 

NAILED IT!

 

 

And this is one of the great tragedies of Christianity. It takes everything, from the best cuts of meat to the scraps off the floor and everything in between, and squirts out baloney and Spam.

 

Perianne, in her very presentation as a human being, screams silently from every unspoken verbal and nonverbal utterance, "Please don't tell me it's not true. I've given up everything for this."

 

I truly feel sorry for her.

 

AND NAILED IT AGAIN!!!

 

You rock, Pos.

[Akheia]

I've known way too many terrified Christians like the people in that FB thread. Folks like Perianne might be delightful as long as everything's running very smoothly, but as soon as Things Don't Go Smooth, watch out! I agree, she sounds downright frightened of the idea of examining her faith, and rather defensive too.

[2Honest]

If she wants to talk woo, let her talk woo, because a woo speaks woo to other woos, not non-woos. So us non-woos wont be persuaded by her wooiness, the only ppl she's influencing are pre-wooed woos.

OMG this is hilarious!

 

It must be because its Dr. Seuss week at my 7 year olds school!!

 

Dammit! Now I have this stupid song in my head!

 

(the woo woo's start at about 1:17)

 

[mcdaddy]

that vid couldnt be more 80's if it had a rat tail and a fanny pack.

[jblueep]

The conversation continues with a few new characters:

 

Jane - David's grandmother

 

Sebastian - 22 year old friend of David. Don't know him.

 

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Continuation of thread below

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Jane: anyone I know that has shared in great detail of their experience that could seemingly be orchestrated by a deity of some sort.....I AM SURE YOU HAVE HEARD MY CONVERSION TESTIMONY...MAYBE YOU WERE NOT LISTENING JUST APPEARING TO CARE

 

Sebastian: Although I have not completely found my religious calling yet, I don't rule it out. Nobody is ignorant for believing in God, but I do believe the bible should not be taken literal. I believe in the bible the same way Thomas Jefferson did. It's a book of moral examples, and above all it does just that. Sets a moral example to the people who believe. My Grandfather was not a religious man until he had an 18wheeler tire blow up in his face, he almost died. After he laid in the hospital for days in a coma he woke up completely changed. He swears up and down that he talked to Jesus. A similar situation happened with my uncle. They are not liars. I'm not saying there could not be a more rational explanation for what they saw, but how am I supposed to know.

 

@Jason: I don't believe faith can never be PROVEN true, even by material promises. That is why it is called faith. You either choose to believe or not. If God came down and everyone saw, It would be fact, cause there would be nobody disagreeing.

 

I think @Perrianne had it when saying an authentic experience is spiritual and not material. I just keep this in mind when thinking on the subject, that even Darwin, the man who started the whole argument from the beginning, never once said God did not exist. Infact he devoutly believed in God, and for some time tried to Help people understand that God and science can coexist.(David, have you seen Zeitgeist the greatest story ever told)

 

James: David you asked for proof, how do you explain what happened to Sam? There were MRI's taken one after another and the tumer was shrinking in front of the Dr's eyes. There are many examples, you just have to look. History is full of misery caused by religious and non-religious people. Lets not forget we live in a country founded on religion and defended by men and woman who believe in the words "In God We Trust" and died to preserve your constitutional right of free speech. Like it or not religion will be here as long as people are on the earth. The real trick is how to disagree without condemnation. I may fell you are wrong but it doesn't give me the right to belittle you. You may be more intelligent than others but all of your intelligence won't persuade a faithful person. Till the final curtain call of life you may never have the facts you seek. Just try to understand your passion for your point of view doesn't make it right for you to attack others for their views.

 

Jason (me): Hi Sebastian, nice to "meet you" here. The Jefferson bible is interesting for sure. Virtually all religious texts offer valuable moral lessons that we can embrace.

 

In regard to your grandfather and uncle, it is interesting to look at near death experiences. NDEs tend to be directly related to culture. One's upbringing/exposure tends to be reflected in their NDE, i.e. they talk to Budda if their buddists, etc.

 

Faith is no doubt a choice. I do think maintaining faith long term however requires evidence. One can choose to have faith that X is true. If over time though, X never manifests itself as true, I think one should question their original choice to have faith in X.

 

Darwin is a good example of religious intolerance. A vast majority of Christians believe that Darwin is "evil" without ever bothering to study the man or his theory.

 

A quick warning on the Zeitgest movie: While it is very interesting and there are many true facts, the maker of that movie does exaggerate/make up many facts with zero documentation or references. A good portion of it has been widely refuted. Here's a good link to check that out if you are interested: http://conspiracies....cles/zeitgeist/

 

Jane: you know all your life you were read and you read the TRUTH of Jesus....there was a time you invited Him into your heart to not only save you from eternal damnation but to give you a path of eternal salvation...and lest we forget the times you experienced the Holy Spirit slaying..... what ever you want to espouse here ....we your mom ,dad and I believe by faith you have fire insurance...so would you please stop with this crap...and trying to be all philosophical ...we who know you know you love a debate...please pick a new subject....your loving forever grandmother...

 

Sebastian: I spent a good amount of time studying the zeitgeist points .The reason I mentioned it earlier is because the comparison to David made of the Egyptian book of the dead, and the bible. They are the same exact points that movie makes. I however cannot argue what any of those books actually say because I have never read any of them, I just see their effect on people from many different cultures who do read them.

 

Jason (me): James, I'm going to play "devil's advocate" here for a minute on two points:

 

1. What about the vast majority of people who are prayed for and they are not healed? Or their finances do not improve, etc? What about the nearly 1,000 children per hour who die in Africa from disease and starvation? I used to answer these questions with the typical "God is in control so there's must be a higher purpose we don't understand" or "We live in a fallen world". But after more than three decades as a true believer, I find those answers continue to work for me only if I maintain completely blind faith.

 

2. The United States was explictly formed as a secular nation. The founders didn't want a theocratic government. This is evidenced by the fact that the words "God", "Jesus", "Bible", "Divine" etc are not found even one time in our constitution. Fresh out of the age of enlightenment, a good portion of the founders were Deists, not Christians. They believed that there was a higher power, but they were free thinkers who relied on their reason more than their faith.

 

As far as attacking others for their beliefs, I totally agree. There are much better ways to make a point.

[jblueep]

Side Note: The Sam that James mentioned was "healed" of brain cancer. What I didn't say in my response, to avoid being hurtful, is that Sam had brain cancer 3 times. The other 2 times (before and after the time he was "healed"), he had to have brain surgery to fix the problem. And, sadly Sam's young son died of brain cancer years before his "healing".

[jblueep]

Come on Pos! You need to reader's digest the continuation!

[Akheia]

That's sad to hear about Sam and his son. Maybe Sam cussed or played with his winkie after each healing so God took it back? I'd figure once someone's divinely healed of something, they'd damn well stay healed? Or did God botch his roll?

 

(As someone whose mother died of cancer, I get really tetchy about "cancer healing" delusions.)