Not Sure Where To Introduce Myself

[Ema]

So I wasn't sure where to introduce myself considering I wasn't allowed to post in the ex-Christian testimonials or the section for those that are still in some sort of religion be it not Evangelical Christianity.

 

 

I grew up in a very Christian home, my mother was a strong Christian who was very involved in a local Baptist church. I grew up learning Bible stories, attending Sunday church, celebrating traditional "Christian" holidays, etc... The very ideal of the American Christian life. And although I have always been somewhat of a rebel in regard to authority, I embraced my Christianity at a young age. I was baptised at age 8 and never really turned fully away from God, even if I did stray a bit in my teen and early college years. But, after attending Junior college for 2 years, I decided to enroll at a Christian college, Biola University, for the remainder of my education. I spent 2 years at Biola graduating in '99 after a 3 week trip touring Israel, which I believe was a life changing event! When I came back from Israel I was on fire for God, I was excited to have started learning the Hebrew Roots of my faith and wanted to share with others. Unfortunately my excitement was not met with the same excitement in return from those around me and I kind of just pushed Hebrew Roots to the back burner and returned to the daily grind of being a "good Christian", if only on the outside.

 

 

 

So the years went by and I became interested in studying other religions. Mormonism became one that I wanted to learn everything about. I was very intrigued by the religion and have had many friends over the years that are part of that religion. So I researched it in depth. I found out that it was not the religion for me as it did not line up with Scripture and had some major historical problems as well. Yet, I back burnered this knowledge as well, not wanting to offend others and too busy being young and having fun.

 

 

 

This is around the time I met my husband. I began working at a Christian company.. Of course being surrounded by Christians, Christian material etc. all day, everyday, I could act like a Christian as well as anyone else. But on the inside, something always felt off in the Christian Church, like something was missing, like there was so much more to God than just going to church and loving your neighbor. So my husband and I married and began to build the American dream. In the next 8 years we bought 2 houses, had 3 beautiful daughters, my husband got a great job and began to climb the corporate ladder. We started attending a Baptist church and were very involved in children's ministry, Bible study etc.

 

 

 

Then one day we had some Mormon missionaries knock on our door, so knowing quite a bit about Mormonism I decided we should invite them in. We began to meet with them regularly trying to show them the error of their doctrine. I also started spending time online debating Mormons at the same time. I sort of made it my mission to use my knowledge of Scripture and study to make a difference in these Mormon's lives. During this time I was also talking to a Christian friend a lot who had a lot of questions regarding the Christian faith and the Hebrew roots of the Christian faith. We would have friendly debates regarding the Law and its place in our lives. I had grown up learning the standard mainstream doctrine taught in most Evangelical churches: that the Law of the Old Testament was done away with and we were now under the New Covenant. I was taught that the Law was nailed to the cross with Jesus and we no longer needed to follow it. Well, while having these debates with my Messianic friend, my husband and I were also meeting with the Mormon missionaries. In one of our last meetings with them I posed a question. And as I said it I immediately recognized the contradiction in what I was saying. I proceeded to tell the missionaries that God is unchanging, so if we worship an unchanging God, how can the Mormon evolving doctrine be true? It was at that moment when those words were out of my mouth that the missionaries, who I am sure had no idea what was going through my mind, asked a simple question. They asked, well didn't God change from the Old Testament to the New Testament? All of a sudden in that moment it clicked. All of my study and all of my debating flooded back to me and I could see clearly. God does not change! He is the same yesterday, today and forever. The Old Testament is as relevant today as it was to those that lived during its events. God's Laws are eternal. Well, the missionaries went on their way that night, but I was changed. The next visit I began to speak from a completely different mindset of an unchanging God. The missionaries made one last attempt to ask my husband and I to set aside the Bible and our knowledge of it and pray for a feeling that Mormonism was right. Yeah, ok that's super logical. Hmmm, set aside all knowledge and logic and pray for a feeling that something that contradicts itself is true. No way! After that visit they did not return.

 

 

 

Now that I had had this revelation I needed to study and study I did. I began to look at the Scriptures in a new light. I began to read the New Testament with the understanding that the Torah was its foundation. Did I have all the answers? No way, but I understood that they were out there for me to study and find. I spent all of my extra time reading and studying the historical culture of the time of Yeshua. I started looking into church history, the canonization of the Bible etc. I read all sides of the issues. I searched mainstream Christianity for answers and I searched Messianic scholars works for answers, I even read Catholic commentary, Seventh Day Adventist commentary, Jehovah Witness commentary, Pagan and Atheist views etc. I wanted to study all views. I found the best answers in Jewish and Messianic commentary and explanations.

 

As I have continued on this journey I have been led further and further from Mainstream Christianity and closer and closer to Orthodox Judaism with the belief that Yeshua (the real historical Jesus, not the paganized, trinity god-man) was the promised Messiah ben Joseph.

 

 

 

So, where am I now? Do I have all the questions answered? No way! The more I learn the more I realize I need to study further! But, my life has taken a huge turn. I am now living the life that I believe God wants me to live. I am learning as I go, but I am willing to follow where truth leads no matter where that might be.

 

I am not sure where I will fit in on this board, but I hope I will fit in

Shalom!

 

Shalom

[LivingLife]

This is a place for ex Christians. Not sure how you will fit in but if you read up a bit you may just be exposed to a bit more truth outside of your confirmation bias.

 

Most of us here are well studied in the bible and apologetics.

[Ema]

Well, I don't consider myself a Christian. Do I have to be an atheist or agnostic to be considered an ex-Christian?

[Ema]

How do I get rid of the big Authentic Christian believer label on the side bar?

[LivingLife]

No there are no rules in that regard. The language you use like shalom and your personal god YVHH indicates you are still a theist on the Abrahamic kind. If you are messianic, I doubt you will find folk here of that mindset.

 

As for the Authentic Xian, simple ask a mod to change that.

[Ema]

Well, I am not sure I would call myself Messianic. I slant more toward Orthodox Judaism than anything. But I guess I will stick around for awhile and see what happens;)

[Eugene39]

Hi, Ema. I read the Bible through in a year which was the catalyst for my leaving faith. Like you, I realized how much the NT mirrored what Christianity would consider the pagan religions ( Greek and Roman ) of that time, i.e. Jesus being a demi-god. Another problem I had with Jesus was his total failure in fulfilling the actual Messianic prophecies. The writers of the NT had to pick snippets of verses out of un-Messianic passages in order to make Jesus the Messiah. Anyway, I did take a long look at Judaism or Noahism on my way from believing that there is literature that is inspired by God, and came to realize that the God of the OT also has major problems. I've come to appreciate that Reform / Humanistic Judaism at least address the issue that God-ordered killing is a problem. The rest of Abrahamic faith has yet to do that.

 

It's always interesting to see the paths that others take upon leaving Christianity. I'm happy that you have found a path that works for you.

[Akheia]

Welcome, Ema. You sound like you're doing the very best you can. I hope that your journey of knowledge and learning takes you where you need to be. I'm not a real fan of the Bible in general, and the Torah's part of the Bible, so you can imagine why it's a bit weird to hear where your path took you! But you are an ex-Christian, and I reckon that's about all you need. One of the Abrahamic religion's major shortcomings, after its intolerance of other faiths, is that its source document is so problematic; learning about OT history is a big part of why I de-converted. But everybody's path is different. I've always loved that sig I saw here about "There are many paths that climb the mountain, but at the top we all gaze at the same bright moon." There's a lot to learn here Happy Saturday.

[Deva]

As I have continued on this journey I have been led further and further from Mainstream Christianity and closer and closer to Orthodox Judaism with the belief that Yeshua (the real historical Jesus, not the paganized, trinity god-man) was the promised Messiah ben Joseph.

 

This is why the big "True Believer" cross will remain.

 

Good luck in finding the "real historical Jesus."

 

You must realize that even though some of us here are not atheists or agnostics, in most cases we have dumped the Bible completely overboard. It is not God's Word for us.

 

Anyway, I don't see many testimonies like yours. It does seem like you have been on quite a search. I give you credit for that.

Unfortunately it still appears that you are not seeing beyond "The torah is God's law".

[blackpudd1n]

Hello Ema.

 

All of your searching has been within religious texts of various kinds, from my understanding. Perhaps it is time to look outside of religious texts for a more comprehensive view.

 

Good luck with the on-going search, though. Follow it with honesty, wherever it may lead you. Seek the truth, no matter how uncomfortable it may make you. However, you may just find that the truth you find was not the one you were expecting.

[centauri]

Ema,

If you still have a strong leaning to Orthodox Judaism you may want to bookmark the following site forum:

http://messiahtruth.yuku.com/directory

 

They're quite strict with the rules, so I would recommend lurking for awhile before posting.

In particular, I recommend the Counter Missionary Forum.

It's a treasure trove of information that refutes Christianity in detail.

[mymistake]

Welcome to the forum Ema.

 

As I have continued on this journey I have been led further and further from Mainstream Christianity and closer and closer to Orthodox Judaism with the belief that Yeshua (the real historical Jesus, not the paganized, trinity god-man) was the promised Messiah ben Joseph.

 

Sounds like you have a form of modified Judaism.

 

So, where am I now? Do I have all the questions answered? No way! The more I learn the more I realize I need to study further! But, my life has taken a huge turn. I am now living the life that I believe God wants me to live. I am learning as I go, but I am willing to follow where truth leads no matter where that might be.

 

Have you tried reading Wisdom of Sirach? It can be found in the middle of some Catholic Bibles. Perhaps Jewish bookstores would have it as well. It might also be known as Book of the All Virtuous Wisdom of Jesus ben Sira.

 

 

I am not sure where I will fit in on this board, but I hope I will fit in

Shalom!

 

Shalom

 

As long as you don't try to convert anybody of making them feel bad for not sharing your religions views you should be fine. PM nivek or Antlerman or Ouoboros and let them know you are an ex-Christian who now has a modified form of Judaism. I don't think we have many Jewish members - you might be the only one. So don't expect there will be much interest but you can try anyway. The Spiritual section is for religions other than Christianity. I think Antlerman runs it so you should run your ideas by him to see if they are still too Christian for that section.

[♦ ficino ♦]

Welcome, Ema. I find your story very interesting. Do you think that one of the things about Judaism that appeals to you is its focus on daily practice within a tradition? I.e. focus is more on what you do day to day than on what you believe about this, that and the other doctrine? I have not a Jewish background, but I did find when I converted to catholicism from protestantism that one of the things which drew me was its greater emphasis on daily practice, liturgy and tradition.

 

I had very different reactions from yours when I went to Israel, although in big part because I had deconverted by then. I was really turned off by the rather militant attitudes of the ultra-Orthodox, esp. in and around Jerusalem. I was also turned off by the big emphasis from many directions on the idea that "God gave us this land." Arabs and Armenians (a shrinking minority) whom I met were very bitter about being treated as second-class or worse. Many of them are Christians, actually (although again, a number of the Christian Arabs are leaving). I do have to say that I was reduced to hysterical sobbing within the Church of the Holy Sepulchre as I "lifted up" (I could not longer pray) all the people I've loved.

 

Do you think that the Old Testament shows different attitudes and takes about God and quotes God as saying different things, so that those texts also support a notion that "God changes," even leaving the NT out of it? That would boil down, as I see it, to humans' views as the things that are really changing.

[Ema]

Thanks for all the welcomes everyone! I will check out the website that was mentioned. I have already done some research within the counter missionary efforts of Jews for Judaism etc... And I have done a lot of study on the historical Jesus outside of the Bible itself. I have read many extra-biblical ancient texts and such. I still see a truth in Torah. Not that anyone else has to agree with me, I am not out to convert anyone. I posted a video link in another thread with a rational argument for Judaism and would love to hear feedback because I am having a hard time finding the error in the doctrine. I do not want to follow a religion simply to have a religion, I am in search of ultimate truth. This is one of the reasons I am here. I think the Jesus that Christianity presents is completely false. It is hard for me to even say that I believe he is the Messiah of Judaism without giving a huge explanation explaining the false assumptions that go along with his name. For starters I reject the trinity of Christianity and the deity of the human flesh of Jesus. I tend to lean more to a mystical approach to Messiah that is found within Kabbalistic teachings. But I am still trying to figure that all out;)

 

At any rate I am glad to be here even if I am the only one of my kind;) Thanks for the welcome and I am sure that I will have common ground at least on the experience of being shunned and rejected by the Christian community. I look forward to future discussions.

 

Oh and I figured out how to get the big banner off the side bar. I guess having the God of Judaism in my bio automatically labels me Christian, Ugh! Why do Jews always gotta be the ones left out? Oh well! I just removed that field and now the title is gone.

[Ema]

Oh no, it's back? Whats up?

[MrsRoper]

Ema, are you currently practicing Judaism? Have you formally converted? Which kind of temple do you worship in? Just curious, I hope you don't mind all these questions.

[mymistake]

Oh no, it's back? Whats up?

 

When you signed up whichever moderator approved your application put you in the "believer" group. All believers have that sign marking them (as trolls). If you don't want it then you need to talk to the moderators and assure them then you are not here to convert anybody and your religion is actually a form of Judaism.

[Ema]

Welcome, Ema. I find your story very interesting. Do you think that one of the things about Judaism that appeals to you is its focus on daily practice within a tradition? I.e. focus is more on what you do day to day than on what you believe about this, that and the other doctrine? I have not a Jewish background, but I did find when I converted to catholicism from protestantism that one of the things which drew me was its greater emphasis on daily practice, liturgy and tradition.

 

Actually the daily ritual is what turned me off of Judaism at first. I have always been down on ritualistic behavior, so a lot of the liturgy actually made me want to rebel at first against that. But after I started studying the reasoning behind each ritual and prayer I began to see the richness of it in ones life. There is a beauty in having a prayer for every event in life (they even have one of thanks for proper bodily function when going to the bathroom;) I also love the dietary laws, which make even eating a form of worship to the creator. The mystical side of Judaism is very beautiful to me now, it wasn't at first.

 

 

 

Do you think that the Old Testament shows different attitudes and takes about God and quotes God as saying different things, so that those texts also support a notion that "God changes," even leaving the NT out of it? That would boil down, as I see it, to humans' views as the things that are really changing.

 

I don't think this is the case. Actually the more I learn about Judaism and the Hebrew culture the more united the text becomes. Our Western thinking wants to make everything so contrary when the Hebrew culture is more of a puzzle that has to be put together. When you have only 2 pieces of the puzzle they look like they cannot interlock, but when you start to get the puzzle put together all of a sudden you can see a beautiful landscape.

 

I have actually began to learn more of the Jewish oral laws recently. The belief in Judaism is that these were handed to Moses along with the Torah and passed through the generations orally. It is in these oral laws that one can see the depth of the words on the pages of Torah. Christianity tends to take every word very literally and never delve into the deeper meanings which leads to all kinds of problems, like slavery and burning at the stake of non-believers. Where Judaism may literally implement certain aspects but they also have an oral law which clarifies a lot for the laws that seem harsh at first read. For example the capital punishment of stoning someone for said crime. In the Talmud it states that if there is more than one stoning that occurs within 7 years it is proof that the leadership is corrupt. So the law becomes a hypothetical law with so many stipulations set in place for it to be done correctly that it would be next to impossible to be carried out according to Jewish law. I hope that makes sense.

[Ema]

Ema, are you currently practicing Judaism? Have you formally converted? Which kind of temple do you worship in? Just curious, I hope you don't mind all these questions.

 

I haven't converted. I don't live near an Orthodox community. I want to convert though and plan on seeking out conversion. It is a long process. Judaism doesn't actually encourage converts the way Christianity does. But I do practice Judaism as best I can in my home and am seeking out a community.

 

Currently I have been participating in a Messianic Jewish community.

 

Don't mind the questions at all. Like most I am still seeking out where I fit in. I have only been out of Christianity for about 3 years, so I would say I am still on a journey!

[MrsRoper]

Wow! You plan on converting to Orthodox Judaism. You are hard core!

 

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the Messianic Jewish community essentially Christian? Are these the Jews for Jesus, or is that something else? I visited a Messianic service a long time ago, but I have to be honest, I hardly remember it.

 

Best of luck on your journey & seeking out where you belong.

[Ema]

Jews for Jesus are not real Jews. They are Baptists playing dress up.

 

There are different sects of Messianic Judaism from those that are simply Christian and embrace all of the Christian doctrines to those that align with Orthodox Judaism embracing all of the Rabbinic and Sages writings while rejecting basically all of Christian doctrine including the deity of Jesus. Those on the Orthodox end of the spectrum tend to view Yeshua's Messiahship through a more Kabbalistic Mystical lens. I know that I am not in the Jews for Jesus category! But I haven't quite figured out where I fit in on the spectrum of Messianic Judaism yet, I lean more to the Orthodox view.

[MrsRoper]

Bear with me because I am a little confused, but still curious.

 

Are you saying that you lean towards a form of Orthodox Judaism that is Messianic in the sense that they accept the historical Jesus Christ as the Messiah in a mystical sense?

 

OR are you referring to what I understand as traditional Orthodox Judaism, who are still waiting for the Messiah to come?

[ConureDelSol]

Thanks for all the welcomes everyone! I will check out the website that was mentioned. I have already done some research within the counter missionary efforts of Jews for Judaism etc... And I have done a lot of study on the historical Jesus outside of the Bible itself. I have read many extra-biblical ancient texts and such. I still see a truth in Torah. Not that anyone else has to agree with me, I am not out to convert anyone. I posted a video link in another thread with a rational argument for Judaism and would love to hear feedback because I am having a hard time finding the error in the doctrine. I do not want to follow a religion simply to have a religion, I am in search of ultimate truth. This is one of the reasons I am here. I think the Jesus that Christianity presents is completely false. It is hard for me to even say that I believe he is the Messiah of Judaism without giving a huge explanation explaining the false assumptions that go along with his name. For starters I reject the trinity of Christianity and the deity of the human flesh of Jesus. I tend to lean more to a mystical approach to Messiah that is found within Kabbalistic teachings. But I am still trying to figure that all out;)

 

At any rate I am glad to be here even if I am the only one of my kind;) Thanks for the welcome and I am sure that I will have common ground at least on the experience of being shunned and rejected by the Christian community. I look forward to future discussions.

 

Oh and I figured out how to get the big banner off the side bar. I guess having the God of Judaism in my bio automatically labels me Christian, Ugh! Why do Jews always gotta be the ones left out? Oh well! I just removed that field and now the title is gone.

 

One of the first things that led me to deconvert was the doubt that Jesus was God. It's a wonder I didn't delve more into Judaism. Instead, I headed more toward Islam and eventually became a Baha'i. I did take a test once that said my beliefs lined up more with Reform Judaism than anything else though. Now I'm an atheist, but I found it interesting that you've rejected the Christian concept of Jesus, yet still somewhat accept him as a Messiah.

 

Granted, I didn't do as much scholarly research as I'm sure you did into all that.

[Ema]

lol all of the above!

 

I think what I am coming to believe is that within Orthodox Judaism there is evidence that Yeshua was a Messiah. He contained what could be called the spark of Mashiach. This is an extension of HaShem (God). This same spark can be found within many Tzadik(righteous ones) throughout history. However there is a specific interpretation of prophecy within Judaism of two very specific Messiahs. One is called Messiah ben Joseph who is known as the suffering servant messiah. the other is Messiah ben David who is yet to come. I do not know if Messiah ben David will be Yeshua returning or an entirely different messiah.

 

At any rate, many Jews have followed and speculated different Tzadik to be one of these forms of Messiah throughout the years.

 

Also it is not necessary to me to believe Yeshua was a Messiah in order to be "saved" so to speak. What I see taught in Torah is to love HaShem, love others and follow his instructions for his people. There is no requirement to believe that a certain man was or is a messiah. When Messiah ben David comes we will know, until then it doesn't really have any bearing on anyone as to who was and who was not Messiah ben Joseph. I see Yeshua as the Rabbi that led me to Torah. That was his mission, to lead people to Torah, in this way he did die for the sins of a generation. It is through his dying that billions of those in the nations have been turned to Torah and inspired to live righteously at all even though what is Torah among the nations has been mangled by man into a religion called Christianity. The prophets of the OT actually predicted exactly what has happened in Christianity. It was predicted that they would corrupt and reject Torah and that a remnant would be called out and turn to the Jews for understanding and wisdom.

 

I hope all this makes sense. Again this is all so new to me and I am learning as I go, I am sure I am not communicating it as well as could be done.

 

Also, I think I said before I am not here to convert anyone, just to gain some other perspectives.

 

Shalom (Peace)

[Ema]

Oh that last post was in response to Thinker.