kruszer Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 My family has seen me struggling with my faith for years. I keep getting books for Christmas about "breaking free" and "trusting God". They know I haven been on and off with church for years so I don't think my increasing unbelief is hitting anyone with any unforeseen bricks. But every now and then I'll have a conversation like this one over FB, which highlights just how much in denial they still are about my lack of faith. -------- Mom: Hi Kristine Michael said you were leaving for Washington..is that DC? What will you be doing there? Hope whatever it is that it is profitable for you When are you back? Have a great trip! praying for your safety Love always Maman xo Me: i'm helping Secular Pro-Life set up an information table at the national atheist convention. Ultimately hoping to spread the pro-life message beyond the borders of catholic/christian. It's going to be pretty well attended since the Reason Rally is going on in conjunction - Richard Dawkins will be the keynote speaker. Should be a fun time. Mom: God be with you and keep you safe xo Me: God at an atheist convention? I don't think he was invited Mom: I invited Him to keep a legion of angels around you to keep you safe, the same prayer I've made for you over the years, and invited or not He's with you Are you going to Washington DC or state of? Me: DC capital Mom: okay are you traveling alone, by bus? have a place to stay? [Mundane dialogue over specifics of trip] Me: Don't worry about me. I was traveling alone couch-surfing/ride-share etc for a year and a half and I survived just fine. I know how to take care of myself on the road. Haven't wound up dead yet. Mom: Yup I know all that, and the reason you've been kept safe is because of all the prayers that were going up then ....and now luv ya xo (when do you leave?) Me: the fact that I'm smart and careful and resourceful has nothing to do with that? Just the prayers? Tomorrow morning if all goes according to plan tonight Mom: No of course not! I know you're amazingly smart and resourceful, and glad you're careful too. Send me a note. let me know how your trip is going. Now I'm going to jump in the shower before supper and church. Bye for now xo Me: bye love you too ------- Well, I suppose that could've gone worse. lol But seriously: When someone is heading down to an atheist convention is "I'm praying for you" mean anything to them? That's like telling a Muslim he needs to receive Jesus as his saviour. Oh wait. We do that too. Now I know it feels. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Thanks for sharing. My mom feels guilty if she forgets to pray and something bad happens - like it is her fault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kruszer Posted March 22, 2012 Author Share Posted March 22, 2012 I'm glad she wast at least willing to admit that my survival skills weren't all as a result of a miracle from heaven. Quite frankly I'd like to know where that fucking legion of protecting angels was supposed to have been when I collided with a ski-lift as a result of an idiot instructor, and consequently wound up at 30 with a partial denture. Clearly they were off skiing the other lift. But good thing I have that legion helping me catch my train tomorrow. Clearly those angels have their priorities straight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 I'm glad she wast at least willing to admit that my survival skills weren't all as a result of a miracle from heaven. Quite frankly I'd like to know where that fucking legion of protecting angels was supposed to have been when I collided with a ski-lift as a result of an idiot instructor, and consequently wound up at 30 with a partial denture. Clearly they were off skiing the other lift. But good thing I have that legion helping me catch my train tomorrow. Clearly those angels have their priorities straight. You see that would have been a lethal blow. Satan was trying to kill you. And your legion of angles did battle with all the demons and they were able to save your life. Seriously that is the B.S. way I use to rationalize events. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurari Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 Cute and simplistic. And I have to wonder how a pro-life table is going to go over at an atheist rally. I think most atheists are pro-choice and not keen on the government promoting the bigoted oppression of women and children. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kruszer Posted March 23, 2012 Author Share Posted March 23, 2012 bigoted oppression of women and children. Yes, that's what abortion is. Glad we agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kruszer Posted March 23, 2012 Author Share Posted March 23, 2012 I think most atheists are pro-choice Most, but not all. And that's why I am going to be setting up that table. I think it's unfortunate that this issue has so become owned by religious people, but to me it's sheer science and human rights. My case against abortion has never had anything to do with God; the embryology text book is pretty clear on when human life begins. We get religious when we start to wax on about consciousness and function - which are mere arbitrary lines in human development. When sperm and egg unite, those parts of two humans effectively cease in their original state and merge to become a new entity with complete inherent capacity to grow through all stages of human development into adult maturity. Abortion is ageism, pure and simple. It's defining value and right to live based on the arbitrary markers of age and level of development. It says that because you haven't developed enough to reach this line we've drawn, you can be terminated and prevented from ever attaining any future level of development. I don't need an invisible man in the sky to tell me that killing a preborn member of our species simply because they are smaller, less developed, and more dependent than an older human being, is wrong. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
owen652 Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 I think most atheists are pro-choice Most, but not all. And that's why I am going to be setting up that table. I think it's unfortunate that this issue has so become owned by religious people, but to me it's sheer science and human rights. My case against abortion has never had anything to do with God; the embryology text book is pretty clear on when human life begins. We get religious when we start to wax on about consciousness and function - which are mere arbitrary lines in human development. When sperm and egg unite, those parts of two humans effectively cease in their original state and merge to become a new entity with complete inherent capacity to grow through all stages of human development into adult maturity. Abortion is ageism, pure and simple. It's defining value and right to live based on the arbitrary markers of age and level of development. It says that because you haven't developed enough to reach this line we've drawn, you can be terminated and prevented from ever attaining any future level of development. I don't need an invisible man in the sky to tell me that killing a preborn member of our species simply because they are smaller, less developed, and more dependent than an older human being, is wrong. hmm.. hope you don't run into any rape victims at the rally. they may have something to say about that. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ConureDelSol Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 I think most atheists are pro-choice Most, but not all. And that's why I am going to be setting up that table. I think it's unfortunate that this issue has so become owned by religious people, but to me it's sheer science and human rights. My case against abortion has never had anything to do with God; the embryology text book is pretty clear on when human life begins. We get religious when we start to wax on about consciousness and function - which are mere arbitrary lines in human development. When sperm and egg unite, those parts of two humans effectively cease in their original state and merge to become a new entity with complete inherent capacity to grow through all stages of human development into adult maturity. Abortion is ageism, pure and simple. It's defining value and right to live based on the arbitrary markers of age and level of development. It says that because you haven't developed enough to reach this line we've drawn, you can be terminated and prevented from ever attaining any future level of development. I don't need an invisible man in the sky to tell me that killing a preborn member of our species simply because they are smaller, less developed, and more dependent than an older human being, is wrong. While I disagree, I am glad to see that there are atheists out there that don't adhere to liberal stereotypes. So now when someone goes "Raaargh, atheists want to kill babies!" I can use you as an example. And yes, I'll admit I'm hideously liberal when it comes to moral issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurari Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 I think most atheists are pro-choice Most, but not all. And that's why I am going to be setting up that table. I think it's unfortunate that this issue has so become owned by religious people, but to me it's sheer science and human rights. My case against abortion has never had anything to do with God; the embryology text book is pretty clear on when human life begins. We get religious when we start to wax on about consciousness and function - which are mere arbitrary lines in human development. When sperm and egg unite, those parts of two humans effectively cease in their original state and merge to become a new entity with complete inherent capacity to grow through all stages of human development into adult maturity. Abortion is ageism, pure and simple. It's defining value and right to live based on the arbitrary markers of age and level of development. It says that because you haven't developed enough to reach this line we've drawn, you can be terminated and prevented from ever attaining any future level of development. I don't need an invisible man in the sky to tell me that killing a preborn member of our species simply because they are smaller, less developed, and more dependent than an older human being, is wrong. I've had an abortion. I did a lot of research on biology and embryology and asked to see the ultrasound to make sure I was doing the right thing before I did it. The second I saw the ultrasound was when I knew without doubt how self-righteous and utterly selfish pro-liferism is. There were no babies in there. There was a little black blob of developing autonomous systems that looked something like out of H.R. Geiger artwork with no sentience, no consciousness, no ability to sense pain, and no awareness of life and death. Unlike me, who was suffering miserably with the pain of a pregnancy that I didn't want, and had my literal and figurative life at stake. Your wishful thinking no rights to my life, my body, my embryo, or my family. No human being has the right to use another human being's body or parts, and that includes embryos. You don't like abortion, then don't have one. It's not murder, it's not wrong, and you're causing WAY more harm than good to women and children by advocating restrictions to abortion. I hope that you're at least going to be promoting some reason at this table by promoting contraception, sex education, and reproductive health care advocacy, because then we actually have some common ground (compared to most pro-lifers I debate, who are just misogynistic religious nitwits with no realistic plans beyond telling people "just don't have sex"). 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 I think most atheists are pro-choice Most, but not all. And that's why I am going to be setting up that table. Well you certainly are brave. I hope you don't run across any jerks while you are there. I think it's unfortunate that this issue has so become owned by religious people, but to me it's sheer science and human rights. Good for you. My case against abortion has never had anything to do with God; the embryology text book is pretty clear on when human life begins. We get religious when we start to wax on about consciousness and function - which are mere arbitrary lines in human development. Pardon? I don't follow. What do you mean "we get religious"? Religious people naturally are religious in their explanations but I don't see how they enter the picture for non-religious people. When sperm and egg unite, those parts of two humans effectively cease in their original state and merge to become a new entity with complete inherent capacity to grow through all stages of human development into adult maturity. Abortion is ageism, pure and simple. Uhh . . . that is an over simplification. There is a lot going on in this complicated issue. It's defining value and right to live based on the arbitrary markers of age and level of development. It says that because you haven't developed enough to reach this line we've drawn, you can be terminated and prevented from ever attaining any future level of development. I don't need an invisible man in the sky to tell me that killing a preborn member of our species simply because they are smaller, less developed, and more dependent than an older human being, is wrong. You are using a strawman fallacy. Perhaps you should address the real motives for abortion. I see you as an equal and a respected member of this group. I don't want you to get hurt. Please don't go to a rally on critical thinking and make these kinds of mistakes. You are setting yourself up to get hurt. You are of course free to be against abortion rights. You can vote that way even without giving a reason. But when you go to that rally you are advocating taking rights away from other people and the reason you are offering is flawed it's not going to be very persuasive. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ro-bear Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 When your Mom says stuff like that, just ignore it. It's really tons easier. Have a safe trip. Sorry I can't support your purpose in going. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackpudd1n Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 I can't help but wonder how pro-life you would be if you were raped, and then forced to carry the fetus to term in your womb for nine months, being reminded every day of the moment of that conception. Your reasoning will not stand for much when you are faced with real live women whom have been raped. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted March 26, 2012 Share Posted March 26, 2012 While I disagree, I am glad to see that there are atheists out there that don't adhere to liberal stereotypes. So now when someone goes "Raaargh, atheists want to kill babies!" I can use you as an example. We kill babies because we need to feed. Although live babies are darn tasty too. mwc 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akheia Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 I hope you had fun at the rally. It looked awesome. I'm afraid I really do not support your reasoning for going, nor your stated reasons for pushing what amounts to a personal ideology on others, but I still hope you had fun. I wish I could have gone. I've had an abortion too. It wasn't a big deal. Certainly I've never regretted it. I saw the ultrasound too and can assure you nothing in there looked even remotely pweshus baybee-like. You go on like it's a fully-formed infant, but that is a pernicious untruth. And even if there had been, nobody should have the right to force me to undergo a potentially fatal medical procedure and give of my own tissue, blood, and bone to any other human of whatever age, much less a blob of cells smaller than the chunk torn out of my leg last fall by an angry feral cat, just for someone else's ideology. And now with the issue so closely tied to a general anti-women's rights push in religion and government, someone is going to have to do a hell of a lot more to convince people like me that abortion rights should be limited than cite a handful of flawed studies and a very-possibly misinterpreted or politically slanted textbook and then opine about how wunnerful pweshus baybeez are. I really hope you had more at the table than what you've talked about on here. Oh, and did you see that study link I posted about how Crisis Pregnancy Centers lie to and manipulate women, just like I talked about on my extimony (and which you didn't believe)? Funny old world... I expected you to comment, but you never did. Ah, well. I still hope you had fun. I'm glad we live in a world where you are free to express your views, just as I can mine. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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