Dealing With Hell After Deconverting

[jackbauer]

But look carefully at the full quote from Isaiah. In that passage, god is speaking about the good fortunes for those who bow down to him. And those fortunate ones will "go and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled...." and then it goes on and talks about worms and unquenching fire. Those are dead bodies which, according to the passage, are in plain sight of those who bow down to god and who are living here on this earth. Those bodies are DEAD (undoubtedly killed by god for their rebellion) and their lifeless remains are on earth, not living in torment in hell. The worms that eat and will not die and the fire that burns that will not be quenched are mere metaphors for the fact that these people are dead and their bodies will decay. It is in no way talking about hell like Mark has Jesus saying.

 

So you're saying that Mark misuses the book of Isaiah. You're not saying that Mark doesn't present eternal torment. In other words, Mark (or even Jesus, if he existed and really said this) misuses Isaiah to teach a doctrine of hell that was not part of Judaism at the time Isaiah was written. Correct?

 

Exactly, the worm thing has always creeped me out, but it eventually occured to me that it was obviously the state of the dead bodies. Ever see a rotting corpse (well at least on TV)? It ain't a pretty sight, but it's clear this is what they are talking about here. I also suspect they were ignorant of the fact that your brain stops working when you're dead. It makes the whole hell thing even less likely.

[Overcame Faith]

But look carefully at the full quote from Isaiah. In that passage, god is speaking about the good fortunes for those who bow down to him. And those fortunate ones will "go and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled...." and then it goes on and talks about worms and unquenching fire. Those are dead bodies which, according to the passage, are in plain sight of those who bow down to god and who are living here on this earth. Those bodies are DEAD (undoubtedly killed by god for their rebellion) and their lifeless remains are on earth, not living in torment in hell. The worms that eat and will not die and the fire that burns that will not be quenched are mere metaphors for the fact that these people are dead and their bodies will decay. It is in no way talking about hell like Mark has Jesus saying.

 

So you're saying that Mark misuses the book of Isaiah. You're not saying that Mark doesn't present eternal torment. In other words, Mark (or even Jesus, if he existed and really said this) misuses Isaiah to teach a doctrine of hell that was not part of Judaism at the time Isaiah was written. Correct?

 

I'm saying that the author of Mark put words into the mouth of his character, Jesus, which words were intended to convey the message that there is a hell in which some (or most) people will be subjected to eternal torment. I am also saying that that author misuses the quote from Isaiah to help convey this concept because that quote, when viewed in context, was not talking about eternal torment and, therefore, does not support the concept for which it was quoted. What that tells me is that the author of Mark (and the other gospel writers, too) selectively quoted Old Testament scriptures, usually out of context, to make points that were not justified by the OT scriptures they quoted. In other words, they either made up the concept of hell on their own or, more likely, borrowed the concept from the pagan religions and tried to find OT scriptures as a basis for having their alleged Messiah, whose roots were in Judaism, to say such a thing and trying to ascribe it to the alleged Jewish Messiah's Jewish roots, which would seem necessary if one is trying to convince the readers that Jesus was the Messiah as prophesied in the OT.

[Overcame Faith]

Exactly, the worm thing has always creeped me out, but it eventually occured to me that it was obviously the state of the dead bodies. Ever see a rotting corpse (well at least on TV)? It ain't a pretty sight, but it's clear this is what they are talking about here. I also suspect they were ignorant of the fact that your brain stops working when you're dead. It makes the whole hell thing even less likely.

 

Even the quote from Isaiah was intended to "creep" people out. But, as you correctly note, Isaiah was talking about the state of dead bodies and not eternal torment for a living person.

[Overcame Faith]

Those bodies are DEAD (undoubtedly killed by god for their rebellion) and their lifeless remains are on earth, not living in torment in hell. The worms that eat and will not die and the fire that burns that will not be quenched are mere metaphors for the fact that these people are dead and their bodies will decay. It is in no way talking about hell like Mark has Jesus saying.

 

Exactly! Nowhere does it say that they're being tormented. It seems rather obvious to me that the reference to the worm dying not is an indication that the worms wouldn't die out because of having an endless supply of rotting corpses to feast on. As such, the "fire" can't be talking about hellfire, because the picture being painted is merely one of the fate of physical corpses.

 

I agree completely, Citsonga.

[★ Citsonga ★]

What that tells me is that the author of Mark (and the other gospel writers, too) selectively quoted Old Testament scriptures, usually out of context, to make points that were not justified by the OT scriptures they quoted.

 

Indeed, this practice shows up over and over and over again in the NT. It's like the NT authors had no regard whatsoever for what the OT actually meant; they just concocted whatever they wanted from out-of-context quotations (or even alterations) from the OT. This is especially true with the alleged prophetic fulfillments in the NT, which was the very issue that convinced me that Christianity is a big, fat lie.

[Overcame Faith]

What that tells me is that the author of Mark (and the other gospel writers, too) selectively quoted Old Testament scriptures, usually out of context, to make points that were not justified by the OT scriptures they quoted.

 

Indeed, this practice shows up over and over and over again in the NT. It's like the NT authors had no regard whatsoever for what the OT actually meant; they just concocted whatever they wanted from out-of-context quotations (or even alterations) from the OT. This is especially true with the alleged prophetic fulfillments in the NT, which was the very issue that convinced me that Christianity is a big, fat lie.

 

You bring up an excellent point. What never ceases to amaze me is that a true bible study, like the type you engaged in where you checked in detail about the alleged prophecies and literally compared what the gospel writers said they said to what they actually said and meant, reveals the truth about the claims of the gospels. It is when people read the gospels with the Christian gloss, which the preachers and apologists teach and people learn even if they do not know they are being indoctrinated, that what is right there in front of them and screams that it is all a lie fail to see it. And I'm not putting anyone down for this because for years I, too, read it all through the foggy lenses of my faith and could not see what was right there. But once the fog fades, the truth is right there for the harvest.

[★ Citsonga ★]

Indeed, this practice shows up over and over and over again in the NT. It's like the NT authors had no regard whatsoever for what the OT actually meant; they just concocted whatever they wanted from out-of-context quotations (or even alterations) from the OT. This is especially true with the alleged prophetic fulfillments in the NT, which was the very issue that convinced me that Christianity is a big, fat lie.

 

You bring up an excellent point. What never ceases to amaze me is that a true bible study, like the type you engaged in where you checked in detail about the alleged prophecies and literally compared what the gospel writers said they said to what they actually said and meant, reveals the truth about the claims of the gospels. It is when people read the gospels with the Christian gloss, which the preachers and apologists teach and people learn even if they do not know they are being indoctrinated, that what is right there in front of them and screams that it is all a lie fail to see it. And I'm not putting anyone down for this because for years I, too, read it all through the foggy lenses of my faith and could not see what was right there. But once the fog fades, the truth is right there for the harvest.

 

Exactly. They see the "quote" in the NT and take it at face value, just like I used to do. There's no need to actually verify the original meaning when you're indoctrinated to see the prophetic claim as absolute truth. And if you do happen to notice that something is out of context, apologists just fall back on the ridiculous "dual fulfillment" argument (an argument that they would never accept as valid from anyone of any other religion).

[dbiss76]

This topic has been so helpful to me. As I begin my deconversion, it's the fear of death and hell that make me want to cling to Christianity. I love the posts about how rationality doesn't overcome the fear. Because that's what's happening with me. However, I suppose, as most of you stated, it is a process. I had done some personal research where I found that there were multiple origins of the word Hell that had all been translated into this one Hell that we associate with the lake of fire.

 

Do you all now have your own beliefs about the after life? Or do you believe that it simply does not exist? Or is their a peace in the unknown that I have not found yet?

[★ Citsonga ★]

Do you all now have your own beliefs about the after life? Or do you believe that it simply does not exist? Or is their a peace in the unknown that I have not found yet?

 

I can't speak for all, but as for myself, I no longer believe in an afterlife. As I was before I was conceived, so will I be after I die. A very basic understanding of neuroscience is enough to realize that our thoughts are based on the electrical workings of our brains, and "we" can be altered by chemical imbalances and injuries to the brain, and some mental conditions can be controlled by medication. The very fact that "we" are altered by things that happen physically to the brain is an indication that "we" are merely physical. It seems to me that the soul is just a human construct, not something that is for real.

 

It can be disheartening to lose belief in an afterlife. In fact, the very reason why people came up with the concept of an afterlife is probably because it can be very unsettling to think that when we die we just cease to exist. Yet, it seems to me that cessation is exactly what happens to us.

[Overcame Faith]

This topic has been so helpful to me. As I begin my deconversion, it's the fear of death and hell that make me want to cling to Christianity. I love the posts about how rationality doesn't overcome the fear. Because that's what's happening with me. However, I suppose, as most of you stated, it is a process. I had done some personal research where I found that there were multiple origins of the word Hell that had all been translated into this one Hell that we associate with the lake of fire.

 

Do you all now have your own beliefs about the after life? Or do you believe that it simply does not exist? Or is their a peace in the unknown that I have not found yet?

 

I'm glad this topic has been some help to you.

 

The very fears you are experiencing, of death and hell, and how they make you (and many others) want to cling to Christiantiy is exactly why they are part of the Christian doctrine. One of the things that I came to terms with was that the threat of hell is a control mechanism. What better way to capture innocent people in a trap than to make them a promise of eternal life in heaven if they believe (and thus to relieve the natural human fear of death) combined with the threat of eternal torment should they not believe, or even worse, have the gall to leave the religion and become an apostate. I am not immune from such fears. That was why when I left the religion I wanted to be as sure as I possibly could that I was right because, as I thought to myself, if I am wrong and Christianity is correct, I am subjecting myself to hell. It is when I began really thinking about the issue of hell and reading the Bible carefully that I saw through the ruse, the con game that is Christianity. It was then that I finally understood that for years I had been manipulated by these scare tactics. With that realization came the greatest freedom I had known. Once the concept of hell fell away so, too, did the concept of Satan and demons. I no longer saw the world as being a form of spiritual warfare as Christians sometimes describe it where Satan and god were doing battle for my soul and to the victor went the spoils - the spoils being me, of course.

 

Even coming to terms with my own mortality brought its own freedom. No longer did I feel that I had to live this life as a sort of test for whether I was worthy to be admitted into heaven, with this life being a mere temporary abode before I (hopefully) received a great reward in the afterlife. The freedom of which I speak is the freedom (and responsibility) to live this life with more intensity than I ever had before and, at least as importantly for me, to respect the lives of others since, for all we know, this life is it. But this life being "it" is not bad news. It's great news because with that understanding we are able to put it into proper perspective and appreciate it all the more.

 

You mentioned the issue of whether rationality helps everyone who has fears such as you do. It does help a lot of people when it is combined with sufficient time for the person to come to terms with the realities. For others the time period between having the fear and losing it may be longer (for some, shorter). But I will tell you that your fears are not unusual and you are not odd for having them. It seems to me that you have taken a major step by acknowledging them and beginning to think through what it is that bothers you. No matter what, I always recommend that those who experience fears as you do to do a rational study because that sort of study can serve as an anchor to help prevent the fears from sending you adrift into uncontrollable waters of emotional desparation.