What's Wrong With The West?

[Guest Valk0010]

I'm not seeing evidence beyond anecdotal that western civilization is in serious decline.

What kind of evidence would be sufficient for you?

I think that there is a decline in socioeconomics, for example the US is no longer a superpower and there is no one who has yet taken its place. Culturally the west is a bit like a wave, it will strike hot again, but right now its on its ass.

[RankStranger]

Before we can talk about solutions, I also reckon it's a good idea to define the problem.

 

Now when you say that a person physically ill, that's fairly easy to define. All you're saying is that compared to a normally functioning person, something isn't physically working right. There's a standard with which you're comparing the sick person.

 

Mental illness is harder to define- but psychologists do it anyway. In some very broad, general terms- they would say that a person is mentally ill if they have issues, maladaptive behaviors, and the like that are causing said individual problems within their particular society. It's fuzzy, culture-specific, and pretty subjective- but what else are you gonna do with something as complex as the human mind and the societies that they interact with?

 

Both of these examples imply quite a few 'shoulds' and 'oughts'. Both are based on comparisons with a norm. What would we compare western society with? Other societies? Past history of western society? Somebody's ideal of what western society OUGHT to be?

[Vigile]

I'm not seeing evidence beyond anecdotal that western civilization is in serious decline.

What kind of evidence would be sufficient for you?

 

Something that goes beyond the glass is half empty assessment you made in the OP and a clear definition of the word decline in this context. I mean no offense by that. It was an interesting OP with an interesting perspective, but I don't think you made a case for the decline of western civ by any means. Each item you listed could more easily be used to prove progress, not decline.

 

Here's an interesting perspective I posted a year or two ago. Not sure if you've seen it:

 

[Vigile]

I'm not seeing evidence beyond anecdotal that western civilization is in serious decline.

What kind of evidence would be sufficient for you?

I think that there is a decline in socioeconomics, for example the US is no longer a superpower and there is no one who has yet taken its place. Culturally the west is a bit like a wave, it will strike hot again, but right now its on its ass.

 

 

You mean the US is no longer the hegemon? It is absolutely still a super power, along with Europe, Russia, China, etc...

 

I believe the US is still academically considered the hegemonic leader as well. It still has the largest military and GDP and is still the big swinging dick that dictates policy to the rest of the world via force or economic persuasion. Its power is taxed because it's military is spread thin with too many wars and it's economy fighting back from recession, but it's still the clear leader.

 

Personally, I'd love to see a more balanced world system where countries are forced to compromise rather than have one giant dictate policy to through use of force, so I embrace the potential for the US to lose its position as hegemon as there are a number of countries that can meet in the middle, but none that currently threaten to replace the US.

[Legion]

Rank, it seems to me that you're essentially asking how we define the health of a society. I think it's a good question. I don't know the answer. And it seems to me that doctors have had a difficult time defining even the health of individuals.

 

Again, I think the analogy of society to individual is a poor one, and one I've used myself for lack of a better analogy. It may even be the case that the concept of health applies to individuals, but not to societies.

[RankStranger]

Yeah, maybe health isn't a good analogy- I don't know.

 

You've proposed that there's a problem- an existential crisis- then moved right on to a discussion about its causes. I'm not disputing that there's a problem- I think maybe I see some of the same things you see... though I might frame them differently. But for this discussion to go anywhere, I think we need to at least establish what 'crisis' we're talking about.

 

What do you see that makes you think we're undergoing an existential crisis? How does this crisis look on an individual level and on a national level?

[Legion]

What do you see that makes you think we're undergoing an existential crisis? How does this crisis look on an individual level and on a national level?

 

I think it's a culmination of influences Rank. Some portion of it is based on the work of Ernest Becker.

 

My sense is that Western peoples have an increasingly fragmented or even absent social 'narrative'. Now it may be that we are in the process of rejecting old fictitious narratives so that new ones may be established. But it seems to me that without a shared narrative a society encounters problems.

[BrotherJosh]

[Guest Valk0010]

What do you see that makes you think we're undergoing an existential crisis? How does this crisis look on an individual level and on a national level?

 

I think it's a culmination of influences Rank. Some portion of it is based on the work of Ernest Becker.

 

My sense is that Western peoples have an increasingly fragmented or even absent social 'narrative'. Now it may be that we are in the process of rejecting old fictitious narratives so that new ones may be established. But it seems to me that without a shared narrative a society encounters problems.

What does that say about multiculturalism?

[Legion]

I own very few works of art to hang on my walls, but I do have a picture of the Earth from space.

 

Valk, I'm not a fan of multiculturalism per se. Certainly I encourage multi-ethnicity and even subcultures, but if I go to Africa then I expect for me to adapt to their cultural norms to the extent that I am cabable of it (e.g. dress, language, customs, etc.). I think it would be unreasonable for me to go to China and expect them to adapt to me.

[Guest Valk0010]

I own very few works of art to hang on my walls, but I do have a picture of the Earth from space.

 

Valk, I'm not a fan of multiculturalism per se. Certainly I encourage multi-ethnicity and even subcultures, but if I go to Africa then I expect for me to adapt to their cultural norms to the extent that I am cabable of it (e.g. dress, language, customs, etc.). I think it would be unreasonable for me to go to China and expect them to adapt to me.

So your very much into the whole, group identity thing. I always thought that was a strength of the west, that it could reasonably adapt?

[Legion]

Valk, I'm not a fan of multiculturalism per se. Certainly I encourage multi-ethnicity and even subcultures, but if I go to Africa then I expect for me to adapt to their cultural norms to the extent that I am cabable of it (e.g. dress, language, customs, etc.). I think it would be unreasonable for me to go to China and expect them to adapt to me.

 

So your very much into the whole, group identity thing. I always thought that was a strength of the west, that it could reasonably adapt?

 

Well I think group identity and social narrative are connected. It seems to me that a group of people must share certain vital things if they are to be a society, an 'us', a 'we'. Without these commonalities there is merely a set of individuals, a collection of 'me'.

[Guest Valk0010]

Valk, I'm not a fan of multiculturalism per se. Certainly I encourage multi-ethnicity and even subcultures, but if I go to Africa then I expect for me to adapt to their cultural norms to the extent that I am cabable of it (e.g. dress, language, customs, etc.). I think it would be unreasonable for me to go to China and expect them to adapt to me.

 

So your very much into the whole, group identity thing. I always thought that was a strength of the west, that it could reasonably adapt?

 

Well I think group identity and social narrative are connected. It seems to me that a group of people must share certain vital things if they are to be a society, an 'us', a 'we'. Without these commonalities there is merely a set of individuals, a collection of 'me'.

Yeah and it probably leads to a bit of existential suffering too, say being a atheist in a very conservative Christian small town, for a example.

[Galien]

I suspect that Kuhn was more or less correct about some things. I believe everyone thinks, but there are leading, paradigm-shifting thinkers and following thinkers. What I'm seeing is basically a failure of leadership in Western intellectual circles.

 

The vast majority of folks could not give a flying fuck about the opinions of leadership. The illusion of "leadership" being any better than the rest of us has fallen in ruins. THAT is why western society has a problem.

 

That, and the fact that our rhetoric no longer matches the way we behave. So called christian principles that supposedly underpin everything we do, but it is apparent that greed and self interest really underpin the way society is run. You can only hide hypocrisy for so long.

[Guest Valk0010]

I suspect that Kuhn was more or less correct about some things. I believe everyone thinks, but there are leading, paradigm-shifting thinkers and following thinkers. What I'm seeing is basically a failure of leadership in Western intellectual circles.

 

The vast majority of folks could not give a flying fuck about the opinions of leadership. The illusion of "leadership" being any better than the rest of us has fallen in ruins. THAT is why western society has a problem.

Well I would say the evidence is against you there.

[Legion]

For Galien to use gutter talk in the Coliseum is one thing. For the mods to allow it is another.

 

It's the sort of thing which makes me question the overall integrity of ex-C.

[Deva]

Oh sorry I forgot americans are slow, but you will relaise it eventually, in fact I think you are starting to already. Can't even find anyone in your large country worth voting for. Dear oh dear.

 

I admit I am getting disgusted with this kind of thing.

[Antlerman]

Galien, knock it off with your putting down Americans as mentally slow or inferior to you. This is the only direct warning you are going to get from me before I start handing you time-outs from ExC. This poor behavior of yours is unacceptable.

[LivingLife]

Culture is morphing into something else.

 

Western culture aka capitalism vs the communism which ess defined what is west and eastern cultures (sort of) has now demonstrated that even it is rotten at the core. Communism does not work as it goes against the very nature of humans wishing to be independent and autonomous.

 

The culture of tribal group think and mutual caring has all but gone due to urbanisation. Urbanisation in essence is looking out for yourself and MAYBE your neighbour, should he/she need help.

 

Perhaps the good parts of socialism and capitalism will morph into something that will become the new standard. I think in SA we have a model pretty close but it is still screwed up. You really cannot simply wipe the slate clean and start from scratch.

 

We live too long these days. 400 years ago I would be an old man in that society whatever it may have been. I have seen first hand how forced change does not work and usually results in something far worse for all concerned.

 

When the shit hits the fan we tend to regress to the tribal model with a view to survival amongst friends and family.

 

From where I sit, I see little difference between the aristocracy of yore to what we have today in society. You still have the new aristocracy and the plebs. The middle class is an illusion. A well off pleb is still a pleb. The mere fact that folk label and divide by the archaic labels of various classes of people shows we have not evolved that much.

 

BO's twist of the golden rule of he who has the gold makes the rules still rings true. Rebellion does not work as the leaders of the rebels simply adopt the old with some minor changes to the status quo.

 

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

 

The idea that politicians get to have lifetime pensions for a pithy service of say 4-8 years really sucks. Politicians should not enjoy benefits like this. It should be proportional.

 

The new aristocracy no longer rule by title, they rule by wealth. Politicians are merely their puppets that have an illusion that they are leaders.

 

The machine is broke and I sure as hell have no ideas how to fix it. The more I ponder this the more I see the matrix parallel, we are no more than a Duracell to power the machine.

[Antlerman]

For Galien to use gutter talk in the Coliseum is one thing. For the mods to allow it is another.

 

It's the sort of thing which makes me question the overall integrity of ex-C.

Try reporting something to us, rather than just complaining we don't do anything. We don't read every single word of every single post. Thanks to the member who did report it.

[Legion]

For Galien to use gutter talk in the Coliseum is one thing. For the mods to allow it is another.

 

It's the sort of thing which makes me question the overall integrity of ex-C.

Try reporting something to us, rather than just complaining we don't do anything. We don't read every single word of every single post. Thanks to the member who did report it.

 

I've only reported one post that I can remember since I've been here, and felt like a tattle tell when I did it, and nothing came of it anyway. So what's the point?

[Antlerman]

For Galien to use gutter talk in the Coliseum is one thing. For the mods to allow it is another.

 

It's the sort of thing which makes me question the overall integrity of ex-C.

Try reporting something to us, rather than just complaining we don't do anything. We don't read every single word of every single post. Thanks to the member who did report it.

 

I've only reported one post that I can remember since I've been here, and felt like a tattle tell when I did it, and nothing came of it anyway. So what's the point?

Not everything reported is felt necessary by us to deal with. The mod staff aren't simply order takers. It's our judgment call based on a number of factors. But feedback is important. I feel this was something that deserved action, because it's not the first time and it is inappropriate, IMO as a mod.

[Legion]

The mod staff aren't simply order takers.

 

It's comforting to know that we have so much in common.

[stryper]

From the movie Catch 22

 

" American GI ---What are you talking about? America is not going to be destroyed.

 

 

Italian -------Never? Rome was destroyed. Greece was destroyed. Persia was destroyed. Spain was destroyed.

All great countries are destroyed.

 

Why not yours?

 

How much longer do you think your country will last? "

 

 

Death comes to all things. Whenever a country is built, it sows the seeds of its own destruction. With America it was our desire to be better than Europe. We fought our way to the top like guy with short man's syndrome. Once there we did what all empires do. We stopped. No we don't look to the future. We don't plan ahead. We only look to the next election cycle or news story. Companies only plan a quarter or two ahead to keep shareholders happy.

 

Stagnation is the death of every nation. Our is rotting from within because some would have us spend unlimited money on military adventurism in a dick waving contest with only one competitor. Yet refuse to see the rotting roads, sewers, and electrical grid in their own back yard. When you stop the upkeep on the house, it falls.

[Vigile]

Catch 22 rocks. The funniest American novel after Confederacy of Dunces, which I honor with my avatar.