I Told My Wife

[★ Citsonga ★]

I will probably never hurt so many people...

You are hurting no one. You are doing nothing wrong. How others choose to react to your difference of opinion is totally up to them, not you. In fact, we have more reason to feel bad about their choices than they have reason to wring their hands over us. Don't let the brainwashing make you feel guilty for having a brain.

I totally agree with this. Unfortunately, in matters like this, emotions often trump it. It can be difficult to control how we feel about a situation, even when we logically know that we should feel differently.

I think I disagree with you here, Citsonga. Emotional responses change with changes in perception. And we are all able to change our perception of a situation, which would indicate a higher degree of control over our emotional responses than we might think we have.

 

I think it depends on the individual, so broadbrushing the issue doesn't work. For clarification, I myself said "often" and "can be" rather than "always" or "will be" because of the fact that we're all different. For myself and some others, we can have emotions based on how we know others perceive a situation, even though we know fully well that the reality of the situation is entirely different. Perhaps you have better control over that than some of us, and if so, then that's great for you. However, we are all different.

 

It's not a matter of I having more control over it than most people, but rather it was a very important lesson that I had to learn for myself, so I am very aware of how it feels and the difficult process of learning how to do it. The thing is, though, it is something we all can learn to do.

 

Having bipolar, I had a real disadvantage to begin with when I had to learn how to change my perspective of a situation in order to change my emotional response. For starters, since getting bipolar every emotion I feel is intensified, and it is easy for me to lose my grasp on reality and perspective. I know damn well how hard it is to do. But I can also attest to how effective doing so is. I don't deny that it takes a lot of practice, but that is the beauty of it- it gets easier with practice, and as a result I am a lot less reactive, more calm, and more in control of my emotional responses. I still feel deeply, but I am able to put those emotions into perspective by looking at the situation differently, so that I am not so distressed in any particular situation. And when I say distressed, I'm talking about bawling my eyes out for hours and feeling suicidal because I thought I'd offended someone.

 

From this it appears that you actually don't "disagree" with what I said.

[blackpudd1n]

I will probably never hurt so many people...

You are hurting no one. You are doing nothing wrong. How others choose to react to your difference of opinion is totally up to them, not you. In fact, we have more reason to feel bad about their choices than they have reason to wring their hands over us. Don't let the brainwashing make you feel guilty for having a brain.

I totally agree with this. Unfortunately, in matters like this, emotions often trump it. It can be difficult to control how we feel about a situation, even when we logically know that we should feel differently.

I think I disagree with you here, Citsonga. Emotional responses change with changes in perception. And we are all able to change our perception of a situation, which would indicate a higher degree of control over our emotional responses than we might think we have.

 

I think it depends on the individual, so broadbrushing the issue doesn't work. For clarification, I myself said "often" and "can be" rather than "always" or "will be" because of the fact that we're all different. For myself and some others, we can have emotions based on how we know others perceive a situation, even though we know fully well that the reality of the situation is entirely different. Perhaps you have better control over that than some of us, and if so, then that's great for you. However, we are all different.

 

It's not a matter of I having more control over it than most people, but rather it was a very important lesson that I had to learn for myself, so I am very aware of how it feels and the difficult process of learning how to do it. The thing is, though, it is something we all can learn to do.

 

Having bipolar, I had a real disadvantage to begin with when I had to learn how to change my perspective of a situation in order to change my emotional response. For starters, since getting bipolar every emotion I feel is intensified, and it is easy for me to lose my grasp on reality and perspective. I know damn well how hard it is to do. But I can also attest to how effective doing so is. I don't deny that it takes a lot of practice, but that is the beauty of it- it gets easier with practice, and as a result I am a lot less reactive, more calm, and more in control of my emotional responses. I still feel deeply, but I am able to put those emotions into perspective by looking at the situation differently, so that I am not so distressed in any particular situation. And when I say distressed, I'm talking about bawling my eyes out for hours and feeling suicidal because I thought I'd offended someone.

 

From this it appears that you actually don't "disagree" with what I said.

 

lol well, I wasn't entirely sure if I disagreed with you in the first place- I did afterall preface with "I think..."

[GodlessX]

Wow, electech98, it is emotionally difficult just to read about what is going on with you and your wife. I can only imagine how it must be 1000x more intense for you.

 

I'm sure there are ways that this can be worked out -- none of them easy. I would imagine that you have considered the two of you having a mediator or counselor help you work through this. A possible situation that I would speculate is that your wife would definately prefer a Christian counselor. The problem with this is that he will do the job he is trained to do which will be to do whatever he can to get you back into the faith. A secular counselor may be rejected altogether by your wife.

 

Knowing that your family are not as crazy as the woman in the video is reassuring. I have relatives who are exactly like her. Dumb hillbillies who live in Kentucky.

[Denyoz]

Well, electech98, I know I'm late with my comment, but I just want to say that I am so very proud of you. I'll say the same thing I said to Thought2Much (ex-Trapped) yesterday: I think you did your wife and kids a big favour. Now when they have doubts, they'll have someone to share it with, someone trustworthy that will understand and not judge them. You're a light in the darkness, not the other way around.

 

I totally agree with florduh's view: you did nothing wrong, your wife is over-reacting and 100% responsible for how she feels. She chose not to use her brain for all these years, the one her God gave her, and now she suffers for it. But all she has to do is use it, at any moment, nothing is stopping her, and you are there to help her, lucky for her, because she wasn't there for you when you were having doubts about Christianity. I feel no compassion for her. Sorry. Nothing sad is happening here, she's making it all up.

 

Be proud, be happy, go out and celebrate with your real friends. Her duty is to be there and support you and seek the truth, not for you to support her in her delusion. Five years from now you will look back at this day and say "This is the best thing I did for my wife and kids and myself."

 

You did a great and honorable thing. There is nothing to cry about. Reward yourself and enjoy the freedom.

[Discern]

electech98 -

 

I'm sure you 'came out' to your wife at the right time. My parents live in the same city as me, though I didn't come out to them for 8 months. I just didn't feel the timing was right (I wanted to do more research and be able to defend more arguments). However with my own wife, it was pretty much within 20min of my realization that I told her, "I just don't know about the bible". We were attending a fundamentalist church, but she has always thought outside the box, so I knew I could bring the subject up. She didn't grow up in it, but I did so I was thoroughly indoctrinated. She still believes in god, but not so dedicated. I think with me being an unbeliever, it has allowed her to be honest about her own doubts about christianity - such as divine healing, whether prayer is actually useful, whether the whole bible can be trusted, and so on.

 

If however, I had married my previous girlfriend who, like me, had grown up in fundamentalism, I likely would've told her 8 months later when I told my parents. When you talk about your wife, it reminds me of my previous girlfriend. She would get all starry-eyed thinking about raising good little church kids, being a pastor's wife, serving her godly husband, and so on. Basically living the 'dream' instilled in us by our fundamentalist church.

 

It's hard to know when to bring up the hardcore details of why you no longer believe. I always find it better to wait for them to ask the questions. That way you're not actually forcing it on them and they might actually listen to you. The sad thing is, of the people that I've come out to, most of them did not ask about the specifics. And the interesting thing is, for those that I've started talking about specifics to ("..So one thing I wondered was why Jews don't believe Jesus was the Messiah..."), the conversation gets shut down VERY quickly.

 

Unless they've opened the door at least a tiny bit, there is no way they're going to allow you to question their core doctrines. So it's a tough game. Even little comments you make, trying to get them to think, will bounce right off them because they think you're just a bitter backslider. So in the end, it usually seems better if they open the door first.

[Thought2Much]

It's hard to know when to bring up the hardcore details of why you no longer believe. I always find it better to wait for them to ask the questions. That way you're not actually forcing it on them and they might actually listen to you.

 

That's the approach I'm taking with my wife right now. When I told her about all the doubts I was having, she did ask, "Like what?" The one example I gave was that the Exodus never happened; I explained that there was simply no archaeological record of it, when there should have been evidence all over the desert, what with hundreds of thousands of people wandering around, cooking things and throwing things away. She didn't push any further at the time, but knowing her, she's been doing research on the topic ever since with the intent to prove me wrong in her own mind; she'll be very surprised to find out that I'm right about it (or maybe not; she usually knows that when I'm adamant about something, it's probably true).

[electech98]

Just an update: another hard talk last night, this one mostly focusing on whether or not we keep the kids in the Christian faith, among other things. I think she wants to "protect" the kids from having their world turned upside down by having an atheist parent. I was firm, though, and told her that there was no way I could keep completely silent about my atheism around the kids. There are multiple noticeable things that will change around here (I won't be going to church anymore, I won't be praying with them anymore, etc.) that they will question, and I will be sensitively honest with our kids.

 

She is still so shaken. We have good nights where we don't discuss much, and hard nights like last night. We are well away from being out of the woods, so to speak.

 

She also shared a trepidation that she didn't know what I thought of the marriage anymore, etc., now that I don't believe in God. I told her straight-up that I made a vow to HER that I intended to keep.

 

The frustrating, but telling, part of this is that whenever we get to talking about all this, and I ask her to consider "Why" she believes what she believes, that's when the conversation starts to shut down...she gets flustered and, in the end, it usually ends with "I believe because I believe", or "my faith is evident to me", etc. Another frustrating thing is that she has yet to even look at any of the resources I have listed on my letter. She indicates her intention to look at some of them, but she always reiterates that she will NEVER stop believing, no matter what.

 

She talked to my sister today, with my permission. I also talked to my sister-in-law last week...that conversation went well, and there's relative peace between us in the house currently (remember, she lives with us). So, things are starting to come out and I figure that by the end of the week, most people will know.

 

I also talked to one of my Christian friends who is also my coworker. He is, like I am, very curious and studious, so he is actually looking into all these issues himself. It is good to be able to talk to him about this stuff, and to see him also realize that the issues I have with the Bible are legitimate and whatnot. So there's that, at least.

 

On it goes. I just want to get it all over with and have my stomach return to a feeling of relative normalcy.

[blackpudd1n]

Oh electech, this is all so heart-wrenching. I really feel for you, and I hope so much that it turns out well.

 

You're in my thoughts- please keep us updated

 

love, Pudd

[★ Citsonga ★]

I think she wants to "protect" the kids from having their world turned upside down by having an atheist parent.

 

You should take it as a compliment that she considers you to be more powerful than the Holy Spirit.

 

 

I told her straight-up that I made a vow to HER that I intended to keep.

 

That's great, and it's an important thing to assure her of that.

 

I also talked to one of my Christian friends who is also my coworker. He is, like I am, very curious and studious, so he is actually looking into all these issues himself. It is good to be able to talk to him about this stuff, and to see him also realize that the issues I have with the Bible are legitimate and whatnot. So there's that, at least.

 

That's cool, so good luck.

 

Anyway, I wish you well with everything you're going through with your family.

[Charles Demar]

I grew up in the Evangelical Free Church and went throught the same thing you did a year ago. The subtle mind control, the idolatry of Christ and the bible has is impossible to gain any ground with. I too love my wife and didn't want my marriage to end in divorce. My abrupt approach about Christianity being irrational and unhealthy was uncomprehendable to her. My only advice might be as a compromise and what we are currently doing is to agree to visit more liberal churches (ie: Episcopal, ELCA Lutheran) and see if you can stomach that. At least in my case I realized that I couldn't get her on the same page with me but she wanted me to attend church with her. I couldn't stand the old church and found a high Lutheran church that is a 180 degree difference from a Reformed Chucrch. She is probably feeling like she wasn't a good enough Christian wife too keep you in the fold. Also, it will make a relationship better with the father-in-law if your explanation for leaving was due to finding liturgy fascinating. I feel like unhealthy people are drawn to these fungelical churches and the ones of us that figure it out go through hell to get our families out.

[Positivist]

Wow, this is rough..... I think of you both often.

 

Peace.

[2Honest]

Thanks for the update, electech. I'm sorry things are still strained between you two. J and I are lucky enough to be on the same page, but like you we are in the process of coming out to people. It is difficult and I am with you on being ready for things to calm down and be "normal" again. Although I realize it will be a new and different normal.

 

I hope you guys can find a place of peace in all of this. I admire your courage and authenticity.

 

2H

[ToonForever]

Another frustrating thing is that she has yet to even look at any of the resources I have listed on my letter. She indicates her intention to look at some of them, but she always reiterates that she will NEVER stop believing, no matter what.

 

**Raises hand**

 

Hullo, this was me, all over the place. It was fear that kept me from exploring it. On one side of my mind I was convinced that if I studied what she had looked at, I could poke holes in all of it and show her why her view didn't make any sense. But the other side of me was filled with fear that I'd find it wanting too - that my faith would fail and that I'd end up twice bound for hell and this time irredeemable. It took years, and doubts that piled up one on another. Just keep true to yourself and be loving and gentle with her while she deals with it. Stand your ground like you did - that's the best chance you have. The rest will be up to her, and it's nothing you'll be able to control.

 

Good luck.

[electech98]

Another update:

 

I talked to my mom and sister the other night. Things didn't go exactly well...my sister has a tendency to take things very personal, likes to interrupt a lot, etc. My mom took it very hard, but she seemed more willing to listen to what I was saying and hearing the answers to her questions that she had for me.

 

After that meeting, I took some time to think if there was a way to make it a little easier on everyone. I decided to bring my concerns with the Bible, Christianity, faith, etc. to my pastor in one-on-one meetings with him to start making it known that I have many issues with Christianity. I think, at least this way, it's not going to be some huge surprise to everyone when I eventually stop coming to church, etc. I told my wife and sister my plan later, and they were both relieved that I would go through that. Because of what I am willing to do here, I think they are starting to realize that I'm not rejecting Christianity because I want to slack off or live a life of sin. I made it abundantly clear during the meeting that this was because of the issues I found in the Bible after months and months of studying. I also think meeting with the pastor over a number of weeks will show my wife and others that I didn't let my faith go without a fight.

 

In meeting with him, I will not tolerate any questioning of my character or morals in why I am questioning the validity of the Bible. I will make that known straightaway if he tries to dig in to any of that. I will make it clear that I want to address the issues in the Bible (internal and external inconsistencies and contradictions) and that's it. After all, my faith was mostly founded upon a belief that the Bible was the perfect, infallible, inerrant, inspired Word of God. We've had a few discussions on it before I lost my faith, but never to the point that I was satisfied with any of his answers to my questions.

 

First meeting is this coming Tuesday evening. I'll update you all on how that goes. In the meantime, we have decided it best not to tell anyone else I am an atheist until after a number of these meetings. I think this will work out best, because then the pastor at least will know exactly where I am coming from when I eventually leave the church, and he and the elders won't be blindsided by it...and my mom and sister and wife will know I took positive steps to fight it out.

[LivingLife]

Might I suggest a neutral venue? Probably not a huge issue but it does level the playing field. Kinda like when you are sitting in his office at his church, there can be no way you can ask him not to open with a prayer probably in which he will plead for da lawd to open your eyes to da truth™ and subtly set the tone to be in his favour.

 

This is how the charlatans operate and if he really knows his buy bull, he really has no valid defence. Removing him from his comfort zone and the paraphernalia he will no doubt have at his disposal will make for an imbalanced debate IF all you are taking are your notes and the bible.

 

But yeah keep us posted I am following this thread with interest.

[buffettphan]

I think LivingLife has a good point. Maybe meet him somewhere for coffee...

 

or

 

a

 

beer.

 

http://www.the33tv.c...,0,105947.story

 

Glad you're setting limits on the discussion. Pastors can be bullies -- they've got to protect their income sources.

[★ Citsonga ★]

I decided to bring my concerns with the Bible, Christianity, faith, etc. to my pastor in one-on-one meetings with him to start making it known that I have many issues with Christianity. I think, at least this way, it's not going to be some huge surprise to everyone when I eventually stop coming to church, etc. I told my wife and sister my plan later, and they were both relieved that I would go through that.

 

I suspect that there's a good chance that the real reason they were "relieved" at your plan is because they hope that the pastor will convince you to return to the fold.

[Akheia]

Seconded. I suspect they're hoping the pastor will be more convincing than they have.

 

Make sure to read up on logical fallacies before the meetings! And good luck.

[ToonForever]

Might I suggest a neutral venue? Probably not a huge issue but it does level the playing field. Kinda like when you are sitting in his office at his church, there can be no way you can ask him not to open with a prayer probably in which he will plead for da lawd to open your eyes to da truth™ and subtly set the tone to be in his favour.

 

This is how the charlatans operate and if he really knows his buy bull, he really has no valid defence. Removing him from his comfort zone and the paraphernalia he will no doubt have at his disposal will make for an imbalanced debate IF all you are taking are your notes and the bible.

 

But yeah keep us posted I am following this thread with interest.

 

This. I did the same. You're on neutral turf, there's no chance of getting ganged up on with another leader or party who "just happens" to be there.

 

Good luck.

[electech98]

Might I suggest a neutral venue? Probably not a huge issue but it does level the playing field. Kinda like when you are sitting in his office at his church, there can be no way you can ask him not to open with a prayer probably in which he will plead for da lawd to open your eyes to da truth™ and subtly set the tone to be in his favour.

 

This is how the charlatans operate and if he really knows his buy bull, he really has no valid defence. Removing him from his comfort zone and the paraphernalia he will no doubt have at his disposal will make for an imbalanced debate IF all you are taking are your notes and the bible.

 

But yeah keep us posted I am following this thread with interest.

 

This. I did the same. You're on neutral turf, there's no chance of getting ganged up on with another leader or party who "just happens" to be there.

 

Good luck.

I'm not opposed to meeting him in his office this first time, because as far as he knows I'm still a Christian but one with some doubts that need clarification. I'm more than willing to receive materials or recommendations from him on the issue I bring up, as I can read those at home and then come back with critiques of those resources as needed. But, once the cat is more out of the bag so to speak, I will probably be insisting on a more neutral place of meeting (like Barnes and Noble) so that we wouldn't have the tendency to raise our voices, etc.

 

Even at his house, I have the power to end the meeting at any time if I feel the conversation is going to place it shouldn't (questioning of character, etc.).

 

By the way, I really enjoy your blog, Toon!

 

And thanks, everyone, for your advice and concern!

[marmot]

she's been doing research on the topic ever since with the intent to prove me wrong in her own mind; she'll be very surprised to find out that I'm right about it (or maybe not; she usually knows that when I'm adamant about something, it's probably true).

 

This is such a common attitude and approach to truth in the church...it really frustrates me. I will admit that I am sometimes guilty of this as an agnostic, too. I am trying to get better at just saying "I don't know, but I will look it up/do some research" if I am asked a question that I don't think I fully know a reasonable answer to.

 

It's like saying, "I know the answer to your question, but I don't know how or why. Let me go find somebody that has the same answer and I will tell you their convoluted/faulty path to that answer." This is the MO for the Discovery Institute.

[ToonForever]

By the way, I really enjoy your blog, Toon!

 

Thanks

[electech98]

So, the meeting went fine. It was not so much a debate about issues in the Bible as it was me trying to understand my pastor's take on the position of inerrancy and infallibility that is assigned to the Bible. I came in with an attitude of learning, not debating. I asked him what he would do or say in a situation where he had to convince someone of the inerrancy/infallibility of the Bible, and his ultimate position was to take that person through the historicity of the Gospels, verifying what Jesus said and did, using that to verify the Old Testament usage by Jesus, and arriving at a view of Jesus and the Scriptures as inerrant once that person recognizes that Jesus was God. He gave me a lot of material to read, which I have started, but I have a feeling it will all be generally the same: trying to assert the Gospels as accurate historical records (despite their contradictions and theological underpinnings), trying to assert the reality of miracles (despite the Christian's propensity to only accept "Christian" miracles as opposed to all or even some other supernatural events), etc.

 

Anyways, I think this will actually be a better way to go than by trying to argue on the platform of faith. This way, I can show over time that I have a problem with the content inside of the Gospels (regardless of how historical the documents are, because we KNOW the Gospels were definitely written at some point, but that doesn't make the content any more real), especially when it comes to the supernatural. After all, I don't know of any other historical documents with supernatural items in them that we accept as accurate. A fictional story may be 100% internal consistent and may contain historical data, but it is still a fiction especially if it is NOT consistent with the external reality of our world.

 

I might also couple this with a slow revealing myself to him and others as an evolutionist, contrary to their fundamentalist stance on literal 6-day, 24-hour creation. That one's going to be simple, I think...I just need to make it known that I can't continue to shut down my brain and kid my intellect into shunning scientific reality. We don't believe the earth is flat, that the sun, moon, and stars revolve around the earth, or that we can breed livestock with stripes or spots by letting them mate in view of striped or spotted tree branches, so why try to force others to believe the earth is only 6000 years old? Myths and fables are common literary devices used by writers to tell stories...why can't Christians recognize the myths in the Bible to be such?

[Akheia]

That guy's gonna burst into flames. I wish I could be on hand with the popcorn when he finds out you're not a YEC anymore.

 

You ever read Tacitus? I remember reading his "Agricola" and "Germanica" back in college and being struck by its mixture of fact and myth/folklore. What you said about fictional stories having both historical and non-historical data in them made me think of that work because he did the exact same things. I might still even have my translation somewhere around here.

[TrueFreedom]

Nice approach, EL. I think you're gaining respect and putting yourself in a position of influence. Hopefully the pastor and your wife will both learn something.