Ah, Looks Like It Was All In Our Heads After All :)

[Denyoz]

My two cents Margee......the brain study I cited suggests that that which you are seeking comes though anything that denies self. I made a list earlier. Music, meditation, works, relationships, .......ANYTHING that gets you from thinking of self puts you in communion with something larger. We learn these things via religion....but they never associate the religion to the reason....and it stays external in that, sure these things make me feel good, but I have to go to church or belong to do them. True, that is a good place to go PRACTICE religion, but it becoming a mature part of you is after you realize this is what brings life to you and others. Hell, I've been a Christian 13 or 14 years, and I just realized this was a "how to" manual just yesterday. So if we are cognizant of those practices that produce life, then the choice is much easier. Again, it's those things that deny self within the relationships you have every day. And take a bit for yourself too....lol. We love you Ms. Donna.

 

Gee, end3, I wish I could agree with you, but all this talk about denying self rubs me the wrong way. I don't know how you can say something like this (bolded), unless you are talking about the warm feeling you get when you help an old lady cross the street.

 

Which is OK by the way, and good and great and honourable, but is this what we're talking about here?

[Antlerman]

Faith is replaced by experience. I actually never needed faith, and I certainly don't now. To me the question of God's existence or not is irrelevant. What is relevant is how do we talk about that? Do we talk about it as a literal being out there as in Christian thought? Not to me. When people hear the word God, they imagine the Christian mythic definition of an anthropomorphic external God. It's not an internal realization. Once that occurs, all definitions are blown out. God is no longer any God. God beyond God, is how Meister Ekhart put it. In fact, it is not necessary at all to call it God.

 

To the bolded. how do you ignore the similarities to the Christian story. For me, yes, exactly, it is an external thing until you realize the reasons you are doing it, and then it becomes internal. And the analogous version is the Law was external until the Law becomes internal via a new covenant.

Well here's the deal. I do not deny that you may have had some individuals within Christianity who did 'get it', and they express it in such a way that speaks to that. What's the big deal? I speak to that as well. Let's scrape my posts out of ExC and add them to the Bible and worship them as the word of God, OK? Of course not you wouldn't do that, but you do another human doing the same thing all of us are doing in trying to talk about a realization that transcends the mundane?

 

You see End, you start with the belief that the Bible is some magical book of absolute authority. That alone externalizes it. It would be like you worshiping me. It's no different. The Bible also contains a lot of cultural cruft. A lot that is not words being expressed coming from that place. Plus the same people who claim to be Christians reading those verses in fact DO externalize the whole affair. Most Christians approach the NT, the way Paul says the Jews approached the OT. So no way is Christianity enlightened! In fact it is a hindrance to spirituality.

 

Additionally Paul's expressions are not absolute, just because he may have had some spiritual depth to him. He is also a product of his culture, as I am. He still took took higher realization and couched it in the mythologies of his day. I live 2000 years after Paul, and am product of a Modern age. I take the same experiences and express them in different ways, instead of mythic objects. Plus, how we view that Absolute, changes with age and experience. To take his words as Magic words, is really truly missing it. It is being exactly what he says about 'the law' being external to you.

 

Get it?

 

What am I missing about this. I truthfully think it paints the picture you are describing very accurately. Toi the bolded text, you even admit, essentially, that at one time God was external.....right?

Well, I now realize that when I joined Christianity I made it that way because I thought I needed to believe in "God's Word". That was taking a step backwards.

[Antlerman]

My two cents Margee......the brain study I cited suggests that that which you are seeking comes though anything that denies self. I made a list earlier. Music, meditation, works, relationships, .......ANYTHING that gets you from thinking of self puts you in communion with something larger. We learn these things via religion....but they never associate the religion to the reason....and it stays external in that, sure these things make me feel good, but I have to go to church or belong to do them. True, that is a good place to go PRACTICE religion, but it becoming a mature part of you is after you realize this is what brings life to you and others. Hell, I've been a Christian 13 or 14 years, and I just realized this was a "how to" manual just yesterday. So if we are cognizant of those practices that produce life, then the choice is much easier. Again, it's those things that deny self within the relationships you have every day. And take a bit for yourself too....lol. We love you Ms. Donna.

 

Gee, end3, I wish I could agree with you, but all this talk about denying self rubs me the wrong way. I don't know how you can say something like this (bolded), unless you are talking about the warm feeling you get when you help an old lady cross the street.

 

Which is OK by the way, and good and great and honourable, but is this what we're talking about here?

Actually what he is talking about is what the Buddhists say. It is that death to the small self (those mental constructs we believe define who we are - that illusion), in order to realize the Self, that who we truly are beyond the illusion. Is this in Christianity? Yes, there is some Eastern influence going on in parts of it. Do Christians get it? No. They think its about obeying some external God in a slave/master relationship. Christians are stuck in dualism, and a dualism at the prerational mythic level.

[Guest end3]

I don't want to argue...truthfully, but for the same reason science just "corrected itself", I think it prudent to leave my faith open to Christianity. All I am trying to express is that I find no other explanation so complete with understanding......so I hold it as truth until I don't. And here lately, this just strengthens the faith. I mean had I not mentioned this study in this thread, we wouldn't be having this conversation........atheism still concluding you can put a helmet on and create God, and D still thinking he's crazy, and me not understanding how to internalize.............when in fact the conversation, the RELATIONSHIPS, aka, denial of self, brought "life" to me and D and you. So yeah, I don't want to argue, it's just that there certainly is a dichotomy in reality. I don't water my plants with oil and I don't spiritually feed people with hate.....yet oil exhists and hate as well.

[Guest end3]

Well, I now realize that when I joined Christianity I made it that way because I thought I needed to believe in "God's Word". That was taking a step backwards.

 

No sir, not if your lost in hate/death/isolation to begin with. Savvy.

[Guest end3]

Which is OK by the way, and good and great and honourable, but is this what we're talking about here?

 

Probably not.....I know what it was for me to see God, I don't know if we exactly match. I think the manifestation of God happens in the various things I mentioned.....but, the common factor is self denial.

[Denyoz]

Faith is replaced by experience. I actually never needed faith, and I certainly don't now. To me the question of God's existence or not is irrelevant. What is relevant is how do we talk about that? Do we talk about it as a literal being out there as in Christian thought? Not to me. When people hear the word God, they imagine the Christian mythic definition of an anthropomorphic external God. It's not an internal realization. Once that occurs, all definitions are blown out. God is no longer any God. God beyond God, is how Meister Ekhart put it. In fact, it is not necessary at all to call it God.

 

Right. Faith implies believing without evidence. (I keep using christian terminology). Once you "see" God (oops, we can't call it God. I'll call it bling-bling). Once you see bling-bling, then you have proof, so there's no need for faith. I'm pretty sure Antlerman saw the same bling-bling I saw. It's not a feeling.

 

I will add that not all brands of christianity define God as a literal being out there. So I don't see a problem with calling bling-bling God. At least God is a word in the dictionary that almost everyone has some knowledge of. One of the definitions of the word god is: something particularly revered and admired. So when I saw bling-bling, I called it God, not to be confused with Yahweh who is a literal being out there (and an asshole btw). But yes, words are always a problem when you talk about this because you never know how your word will be interpreted.

[Antlerman]

Well, I now realize that when I joined Christianity I made it that way because I thought I needed to believe in "God's Word". That was taking a step backwards.

 

No sir, not if your lost in hate/death/isolation to begin with. Savvy.

I was speaking for myself. I had my experience of God before I became a Christian. For someone who hasn't had such a direct experience, then perhaps it can help them find something in themselves, yourself for instance.

 

So when I say it was a step backward, is true in that regard. I didn't need to see God in those terms because I already saw God beyond those terms. In fact, feeling I needed to take those definitions over my own realization hindered me until I freed myself from those. I am an exception to the rule. I'm pretty rare in how I became a Christian.

[Margee]

 

Kind of interesting Ms. Margee. Hang in there, we are with you. Wanted to share this.....when my grandmother died....and we were very close, I had a dream a few months after she died......that she came back and talked with me.....I don't remember the particulars of the conversation, but the understanding I had was she came back to let me know things were alright and to make sure I as alright, but that she had to go......almost like she was violating a code by communicating with people on earth.....

 

It was just a dream and I don't know that it's relevant, but hang in there, we're here for you.

thank you my dear friend, end...you are always there for me even if we are on slightly different paths......thanks always!

[Margee]

Hey Margee! I'm happy to have you on this thread! I'd like to know what you think about this experience we are talking about. Have you ever been slain in the Spirit, or have this Light overcome your whole being, imbuing you with absolute love, peace, and waves fo purity healing your sorrow, pain, past, sins, doubts, regrets, negativity, darkness of any sort?

 

I thought this was what people meant by being "born-again" or "slain in the spirit", but apparently it's different.

 

The dream about your sister is quite interesting. "It's all in your mind!" would mean exactly what we are talking about here, since you found it meaningful to post it here.

 

Yes, I have been very sensitive to paranormal things my whole entire life. I was a perfect, prime candidate for Pentacostalism.

 

I went around for many years and always had the ability to see 'colors' around people. I never told anyone about it. It was my secret. I used to watch people in bank line-ups and 'stare' at all the different colors around them. It was only in my 30's that someone told me I had the ability to see aura's. I didn't even know what that was. I have always (since very young) been able to 'size' people up and within minutes know what type of personality I will be dealing with. I have been always named tagged...too senitive and made fun of because of it. They used to tell me, 'harden your heart or you will spend your whole life crying. And I have because I really didn't know how to 'harden up'. It's only been in the past 3 years that I too, feel as if i have lost the true ability to 'feel' very much. Yet,I still try to smile through it all. If you ever met me in person - you would never guess this.

 

And yes, I was a speaking in tongues, prophesying, slain in the spirit , lay hands on you and demand healing...(all in the name of jesus) christian. The 'gifts' of the spirit came easy to me. And I loved every minute of it....

 

that was back in the day of not questioning the doctrine too much.......

[Antlerman]

All I am trying to express is that I find no other explanation so complete with understanding......so I hold it as truth until I don't. And here lately, this just strengthens the faith.

And that's fine. If you can relate to it and go further with it than your average fare, then this is good. I think the thing is where you see me push back is when I get the feeling you're trying to say that Christianity has it all right, better than any other way to understand it. That's it Magical compared to the rest. Perhaps that's not what you've been saying, but rather, "Look, it's in Christianity too.". And to that I say, yes of course. But it is not magic. It is not authoritative, because no human talking about this stuff can possibly lay the law down about it. No human. Not the Bible. No one. If it resonates for you and draws that out in you which is Love and Life and Truth, than I fully support that for you. I'm happy to see you realizing these things in yourself and the fruits they bear. It is not about what we believe in, but in becoming this together.

[Margee]

I am glued to this topic. It is amazing. thank you guys!

 

I am at a point where I don't care if there is 'evidence' or 100% proof....I need something in my life or I am going to turn into a bitter, old, pessimestic lady. Losing the christian god..where I found my 'ectasy' has left me empty and cold. I feel lonely and have been isolating here on EX-c for more than a year.

I believe the fear, justifiably so, is that we fall back into 'woo' as some like to call it, that we fall prey to our own desire and believe nonsense. I fully get that as I wasn't about to embark on any path without some damned sure footing first. Spirituality does not need to be tied to mythology, nor does it violate reason or science or any such things. It is in essence getting to know yourself, fully.

 

Many years ago, after my sister died, I had a profound dream in which she would not pay any attention to me at all in this dream. i was so desperate to talk to her. I was sooo frustrated that she would not pay attention to me. I was heartbrokem beyond anything I ever felt in my life. I was begging her for answers and she continued to ignore me.

 

In the dream I finally screamed at the top of my lungs...''Patti, How can I go on without you in this world...how do I make it here on earth'?.... and she finally turned around and said very calmly and cooly said,

''Donna - it's all in your mind!''

 

Poof........the dream was over and that's what I had to go on........ that was 15 years ago and I am still trying to figure out what she meant.

Our subconscious minds send ourselves messages to ourselves in these symbolic forms. My experience of God 'speaking' to me in that first experience of mine when I was 18, was me. It was God, as well. It was that infinite depth of who we all are, projected to myself as my mind opened beyond its narrow, separate sense of self as it came to the end of itself in me. Everything went black. I died. I was released. It is a paradox that cannot be explained. I hear in what you say here, that you spoke to yourself from that depth. That depth knows something your conscious mind can't fathom with reason.

 

It is all in your mind. How you perceive the world is what you believe is the truth. But it is not. To use, forgive me, the Bible, "You will know the Truth and the Truth will set you free.". That is not a truth of some belief, an idea, or a concept, but the Truth of who we are. The nature of Being. When you experience that, beyond concepts and definitions, you are free from suffering and simply Are. The rest are just forms of Truth, but not Truth themselves. They are truths, relative, temporary, not absolute.

 

Help me......show me where to start...... something that makes sense....

I want something again..... I want a spiritual practice......

Practice meditation. Learn to quite the mind. Learn to become aware. Realize that no single thing is that Truth, no idea, no object of faith, no thought, no vision, nothing. They are all ways to understand what lays beyond them all, and not one of them is that itself. They are all vehicles to open you to understanding, and that Truth is already in you. It's simply a matter of clearing the debris of the mind to let its Purity, like a trillion shining suns, radiate from your very Being of whom you are, fully aware, fully awake, fully whole. All religions are simply ways to talk about these things, or paths to find them. And no one who says I have the Truth you need to believe, should be believed. I do not have that Truth for you. You have it.

 

antlerman, I can't thank you enough. As much as I got comfortable with giving up the christian god..I have been longing deep inside for some other path that would make some sense to me. I didn't even realize this until Deny opened up on some of these posts.His own honesty about feeling empty inside did something to me?

 

I am going to at least dabble in this. I think I am ready. My posts in the past 16 months have mostly been to encourage the new members about the fear of giving up the christian god. I totally closed my mind to ANY other type of anything that had to do with god or spirituality. I have been demanding evidence and if I don't get it - then I didn't want it. I have become very pessimistic and I don't like myself. I have been feeling very bitter about life in the last months and haven't been able to admit this.

 

some may be completely happy being an atheist and I am so thrilled for them to have that peace. I have been classifying myself as an atheist... but I'm not a happy one. I think I need a path.............

 

I like this concept of matter, energy and light. It seems to resonate in my heart somehow. I know a bit about it from trying to understands physics.The silly girl with grade 9!!

 

I will be taking your advise..... and I thank you for the wonderful input you are putting into this thread.

[Guest end3]

All I am trying to express is that I find no other explanation so complete with understanding......so I hold it as truth until I don't. And here lately, this just strengthens the faith.

And that's fine. If you can relate to it and go further with it than your average fare, then this is good. I think the thing is where you see me push back is when I get the feeling you're trying to say that Christianity has it all right, better than any other way to understand it. That's it Magical compared to the rest. Perhaps that's not what you've been saying, but rather, "Look, it's in Christianity too.". And to that I say, yes of course. But it is not magic. It is not authoritative, because no human talking about this stuff can possibly lay the law down about it. No human. Not the Bible. No one. If it resonates for you and draws that out in you which is Love and Life and Truth, than I fully support that for you. I'm happy to see you realizing these things in yourself and the fruits they bear. It is not about what we believe in, but in becoming this together.

 

Yes, but for the same reason, it is exclusionary, or at least comes off as exclusionary, to hear that Christianity is "less than". It's not for me. Now don't get me wrong, I can see many instances where we all may have missed the interpretation mark, but let's just hope we move on and become inclusive. I think I understand where you are coming from and I appreciate probably the extra effort you have to make with me not taking it the wrong way. I know you try and I do appreciate that.

[Guest end3]

Kind of interesting Ms. Margee. Hang in there, we are with you. Wanted to share this.....when my grandmother died....and we were very close, I had a dream a few months after she died......that she came back and talked with me.....I don't remember the particulars of the conversation, but the understanding I had was she came back to let me know things were alright and to make sure I as alright, but that she had to go......almost like she was violating a code by communicating with people on earth.....

 

It was just a dream and I don't know that it's relevant, but hang in there, we're here for you.

thank you my dear friend, end...you are always there for me even if we are on slightly different paths......thanks always!

 

I wasn't trying to preach Margee, I just don't know any other way than what I described.....and want to share that with you the only method I know to help. I know you know that. ...and I appreciate the grace you've shown.

[Margee]

 

I wasn't trying to preach Margee, I just don't know any other way than what I described.....and want to share that with you the only method I know to help. I know you know that. ...and I appreciate the grace you've shown.

end, I didn't think you were trying to preach in any way!! I'm sorry if my responce came across like that.You have never preached to me on this board.... ever. I really aprreciate how you always show you care!! Thank you again my friend..... and you have been my friend!!

[Antlerman]

Okay, now I'm taking some time to get back to my response to you Denyoz from your post last night. All I can say is wow, I think you're the first person I've met that has this similar of a story to mine!

 

I get your bit about being a light in the world and bringing peace by making your life peaceful. This is certainly the purpose of having such an experience while not being able to transmit it using words. The Dalai Lama is a good example (I think. I don't know him that well). But from what I have seen on TV, he emanates Peace with a capital P, and people are attracted to him like flies to a pile of shit (what a nice way to put it, eh?).

 

At age 23 I still hadn't litten any candles, as far as I could see, no one I knew had the experience I had after being in my presence.

It is completely the individual's path. You saw what you did when you did because it was your path. I had my experience because it was the release from a deep existential crisis in my life. People typically are not going to just open to something like this when everything is comfortable and going in fine in their life. People look for stability, and aren't all that willing to abandon the sense of security it offers. Even letting that light in you out to the world, doesn't mean they are at a place to go there for themselves. They may even wish for it, but to go there is frightening, terrifying.

 

Have you ever heard of the Dark Night of the Soul? It's a stage that happens in meditation practice way up the ladder, so to speak, right before you move into that Release. It is a letting go of the last vestige of your sense of self into full release. That, is that death. It is facing that existential Void. When I meditate, I found it curious that I don't experience that, yet have gone beyond that in meditation. The reason I believe is because I experienced that when I was 18. I died that death. I saw myself dying. I KNEW I was dying. I saw everything turn black, and then full release into Light. I do not fear that death.

 

And to clarify something to your mind, there are two deaths we face; our physical death, and our death of ourselves we see as "me". The latter death is far more terrifying that physical death, and why people create all these immortality projects to tell themselves they will continue beyond death, such as in 'heaven' if we get 'saved'. They are telling themselves "I will not die". This is also seen in creating monuments to ourselves, passing our "name" down in lineages, trying to be 'remembered' etc. We do not wish to loose that sense of 'self' and we spend our entire lives trying to protect and defend it.

 

Don't get me wrong it is HEALTHY to have a sense of self. This is good. It is necessary to be an individual. We need to first develop a healthy ego, but then we need to move beyond that to something where our identity moves out beyond that ego alone. It is the process of that which is terrifying because to us it means losing self-identity. It's how it appears to our minds. But it is not. In dying, we find ourselves. That is what that means. We become more than just the ego, but that is never lost, but rather realized in higher Self. That is what passing beyond that 'veil of the flesh' is. We see ourselves 'from above' so to speak. We are still us, but as I am more than my body, I am more than my personality. We all are.

 

I was naive enough to think that I could get married and transmit this Light to my wife and then to my children, which was the biggest mistake I ever made. I had no guide, I was all by myself and the bible was my reference book.

Yes, I had no peers. That's why I said I took a step backwards. Not that that was all bad though. There were some things I needed to learn, in order to take what already surpassed them and learn how to integrate it in a mature person. It's like still needing certain elementary school lessons, when you have an IQ of 220 and already are doing calculus in 3rd grade. I did learn from them, but I wonder if I could have fared much better with a genuine teacher. I figured it out though through an insatiable pull towards that in myself.

 

Meanwhile, back on earth, the bad marriage experience made me question seriously whether this Quiet Place Within Me contained any useful knowledge at all, since it couldn't even make me wise enough to know who I should or should not marry, or whether I should get married at all. Of course I knew who I really was inside...

This is the thing. Having a Satori experience like this does not mean we do not have to grow in all the other areas of our lives. Truth be told, as I alluded to above, I had things I needed to learn that got skipped in my development. I had to learn self-confidence. I needed to develop a healthy ego. Their rigid structures and boundaries gave me that place to navigate that growth in myself. Now I'm go to say something here that I've intended to start a topic on for many years and never do. This is for End3 as well:

 

Peak Experience and Structural Adaptation.

 

We may have experiences that propel us beyond anything close to where we are at in our development, blowing the roof right off and seeing into that Infinite Reality. But we are not prepared to be 'one with that', in all areas of our lives. We have to grow one stage at a time in our lives, adapting to that level using the supporting structures of that level. It is not just one glimpse into the Infinite and your life is now whole. No. We are still developing 'down here', moving up to 'there'.

 

The analogy I use is that of holding a sling shot in one hand laid on its side, and the other other hand pulling down on the ban towards the ground, tighter and tighter. That is the stresses of environment on our sense of self. At certain points the tension becomes so taught it either needs to be quickly released or it will snap. Bang! It goes shooting way up above the sling shot held stationary, up a long distance above it. Then it settles back down, eventually finding equilibrium with the level of the sling shot. But we remember how the world looked from that altitude! Our knowledge will never be the same!

 

Adaptation is learning to grow all areas of our lives so that we as a whole are moving up, that hand that holds the 'self' is higher in altitude, and that higher altitude is closer and closer to learning to live up there. We walk out the door and every aspect of our life, thoughts, actions, experiences have moved up there. We transformed. It is no longer a temporary shot up into the clouds, but who we are. In every stage of our development we have to sufficiently learn the lessons of that stage in order to move on to the next. We cannot skip any stage. How fast we progress, if at all, is entirely our choice. Having tasted that world, it most definitely makes clearer what there is beyond the present 'reality', so there is that factor.

 

You still have to get a job and survive, you can't just let your body die of hunger and thirst while you spend your day in meditation. Maybe I should have joined a monastery.

I laugh to myself. Had I lived in another time where economics were different where we don't have leisure time with a 40 hour work-week, I know I would have been a monk. I've actually thought of that at times even now. But to me, it is better to be in that place in living life with others. It finds it fulfillment in that. But believe me, when I go into mediation, I swim deep within her Ocean. It flows over me, to points I fear losing myself to her. But it is in moving that into this world, fulfillment is found. Life creates.

 

I still have not found an answer to this question: once you find heaven, then what do you do with your body?

Become Alive! In my meditations often I see the opening of lotus blossoms, a tree of life whose arms and leaves and roots reach into the world with life; waters that flow surrounding me into which I dip and light streams from it in Life giving to the world; a jewel radiating out compassion and peace in great power and gentleness to the whole planet. We are in this flesh, and we are that in us. This life is the fulfillment of that Life! That! The path of ascension to the "Throne", and descension into the World.

 

In my second experience when I was 18 it was just that. Vibrant Life radiating in infinite Joy and Love and unimaginable Power to all things, and all things to it. It is a circle from Source to Summit, Ground to Goal. From the One to the Many, from the Many to the One. We are that. That is All.

 

I did eventually find a wife who had the same light within her, my soulmate, more specifically my twin soul. That was 10 years ago. Meeting this woman was the cherry on top of my spiritual cake, now I was in heaven body and soul! Up until the day I found out she had been lying to me repeatedly for months. THAT was god's brick in my face, where I lost faith in everything, and fuck that peaceful place within me, it's just a pile of crap.

I don't know what to say to this. I don't know your relationship. Sometimes couples don't tell each other the truth because of a bad dynamic. And if we look at ourselves, sometime in removing that from ourselves and the relationship, the other person is just acting badly in a sort of defensive response, not telling the truth, that sort of thing. I know this that I have been with the same woman for going on 11 years now, and we've had our tensions. In my practicing meditation for myself an hour a day, I have learn things about myself that way that I hid from myself. As a result, our relationship is incredibly more honest between us. She is less defensive towards me, because I am much clearer and calmer within myself. It's quite beautiful. I hope you could work things out for yourself. Two people are always involved in a dynamic.

 

But now that I have met you, the only other person I know who had the same experience as me with whom I get to talk, I'm wondering whether or not I should reopen this file and have a second look at this Thing which is not a thing (we have to find a name for it).

If you do, you need to be careful you are grounded in your mind in what you are doing and looking for. This is about healing ourselves, my friend. It's healing ourselves, through hard work of looking into those dark places in ourselves and bring that dark into light, we are able to grown and mature towards that Light in us, removing those layers that obscure.

[Margee]

antlerman...... can you give us a course of some kind? Would you have time to do something like this for us, who are open-minded to learn? I have so many questions.......

 

I don't know where to begin in this....we need a teacher.

[Antlerman]

antlerman...... can you give us a course of some kind? Would you have time to do something like this for us, who are open-minded to learn? I have so many questions.......

 

I don't know where to begin in this....we need a teacher.

I don't know where to begin. Honestly all I did to was to just try of few things to try meditating, and it opened to me really quickly. I took to it like a duck that had been crossing the desert for 30 years to finally hit the Ocean, and I went straight in deep. What I do just organically grows. It's purely self-guided. It's not that what I do will magically do this for others. This is me. I've been on this path for 30 years, but never just started meditating like this. I can tell you what I do, but results may very. A couple suggestions.

 

-RevR on this site had put together a basic Mediation Guide. I used that to practice a sitting meditation. You can ask him for a copy of it. It was helpful to me. It shows basic sitting, breathing techniques, etc.

 

-I just lower the lights in a quite room I use, light some candles and put them in front of me sitting crossed legged on a meditation pillow I bought.

 

-I use Tibetan Singing bowls which aide in the mind focusing on the complex sounds, plus they have a calming effect on the mind.

 

-I have some music good for meditation I uses sometimes that makes it easier for my mind to 'defocus'.

What I practice largely is Insight or Awareness meditation. This is different from Concentrative meditation. You can read about the basic types here: http://integrallife.com/member/ken-wilber/blog/stages-meditation-interview-ken-wilber

 

-I find the practice of simple mantras to be useful at times (these all vary on the day). You can read about those.

 

There are lots of techniques to try, and they really depend on what works for you. Maybe a more structured group practice is what you need.

[Margee]

There are lots of techniques to try, and they really depend on what works for you. Maybe a more structured group practice is what you need.

 

Thank you for this antlerman! I sure aprreciate the time you are sharing on this. I know from reading your other posts that this has been a huge part of who you are and it is your passion.

 

Is the aim of meditation to completly shut down the mind and get to 'nothingness'? Is this why one would try to concentrate on candles, music, singing bowls?

[Antlerman]

Is the aim of meditation to completly shut down the mind and get to 'nothingness'? Is this why one would try to concentrate on candles, music, singing bowls?

There is the whole Epic Buddhist Thread going on in the Spirituality forum with RevR answering lots of questions. I know he is more informed in these areas than I am, but I can answer from what I know at this point in my own individual practice and understanding.

 

To clarify, you're not really shutting down the mind and go into a blank. It's not like that. That is not the meaning of Emptiness. You still the thoughts, the busy chattering mind and go into a place of quite. In that place you are quite aware. It's just that instead of engaging in the dialog in your head, thinking about this and that, enmeshing yourself in the conversation, you are the silent Witness. Thoughts arise, and you observe them, not engage in them. When they distract, you gently set them down and seek control of mind. Keep repeating them, calmly, gently bringing yourself into just being the observer, not the participant.

 

In those states, you become open and aware. You're free to see what your mind experiences 'behind the scenes'. What I mean by that is that your subconscious mind is always taking in and processing the world, but that is not 'heard' by the waking, thinking, cognitive mind, even though it is there 'speaking' to you, influencing you in ways you don't realize. In that place of stillness, the chatter calmed and controlled, you begin to 'hear' from your subconscious mind its thoughts, in symbols, impressions, forms, senses, etc. In meditation, the subconscious becomes conscious. The dialog between that other 'you' and your waking mind is now made known to you.

 

NOW, this is why I say you should have a relatively stable psyche to journey into that place. Someone like my sister with BPD has a fractured sense of self, and in tapping directly into that subconscious mind, the signals she might get can be entirely misunderstood. Frightening messages she couldn't process which might mean terrible things. Someone with schizophrenia shouldn't go there either. But otherwise, it's not an negative thing at all! It is getting to know yourself, truly for the first time in ways we didn't realize where there. I describe it as an experience of feeling healed, not knowing you were even broken in those ways. You become whole, in touch with yourself, stable, centered, grounded, confident, calm, clear, aware, present, mindful, patient, compassionate, peaceful.

 

In that place of 'clearing' as I call it, things like those moments where you are outside in nature and the wind blows, and you pause and breathe in the world and it floods your mind and your body is released in the world, happen all the time. You become that sunset in yourself. The world becomes bliss. You breathe in Light and breathe out Life from within you. You are present and aware, the mind in a state of superconscious awareness. Your mind is free from the tethers of the world of thoughts and concerns. As you see the affairs of your life before you, you view them like you would tying your shoe laces, a function you perform as a task to do with skillfulness, yet not enmeshed in the 'how to do these things' conversation. You flow with unburdened, undistributed precision. Life is fulfilled in picking up sticks. Each effort an experience of fulfillment.

 

There is no other way into this space except through meditation. No reason can talk you to there. At such a place, you are free. You live, you die. All things pass, and you Are.

[Eugene39]

I am at a point where I don't care if there is 'evidence' or 100% proof....I need something in my life or I am going to turn into a bitter, old, pessimestic lady. Losing the christian god..where I found my 'ectasy' has left me empty and cold. I feel lonely and have been isolating here on EX-c for more than a year.

My uncle left fundamentalist Christianity years ago, so he is years ahead of me in thinking this stuff through. One thing he's been working on me about is working my way into some system of belief that adds value to my life. I'm with you, I'm going to have to have something.

I was begging her for answers and she continued to ignore me. In the dream I finally screamed at the top of my lungs...''Patti, How can I go on without you in this world...how do I make it here on earth'?.... and she finally turned around and said very calmly and cooly said, ''Donna - it's all in your mind!'' Poof........the dream was over and that's what I had to go on........ that was 15 years ago and I am still trying to figure out what she meant.

Here's where religion fails. They offer as you said in the first quote I left, 'evidence' or 100% proof. You and I have both figured out that isn't the case. There seems to be no God to love or avoid, no hoops to jump through in order to try to win God's love, and no set of beliefs that one must accept or you miss heaven and go to hell. Religion has second-hand "divine revelation" that you subscribe to in order to try to achieve acceptance by God. Religion offers something outside of yourself that is to bring you happiness. I'm leaning towards the thinking that whatever path of spirituality will make you or me complete is programmed into our (sub)consciousness. What your sister told you in your dream is beautiful.

[Antlerman]

All I am trying to express is that I find no other explanation so complete with understanding......so I hold it as truth until I don't. And here lately, this just strengthens the faith.

And that's fine. If you can relate to it and go further with it than your average fare, then this is good. I think the thing is where you see me push back is when I get the feeling you're trying to say that Christianity has it all right, better than any other way to understand it. That's it Magical compared to the rest. Perhaps that's not what you've been saying, but rather, "Look, it's in Christianity too.". And to that I say, yes of course. But it is not magic. It is not authoritative, because no human talking about this stuff can possibly lay the law down about it. No human. Not the Bible. No one. If it resonates for you and draws that out in you which is Love and Life and Truth, than I fully support that for you. I'm happy to see you realizing these things in yourself and the fruits they bear. It is not about what we believe in, but in becoming this together.

 

Yes, but for the same reason, it is exclusionary, or at least comes off as exclusionary, to hear that Christianity is "less than". It's not for me. Now don't get me wrong, I can see many instances where we all may have missed the interpretation mark, but let's just hope we move on and become inclusive. I think I understand where you are coming from and I appreciate probably the extra effort you have to make with me not taking it the wrong way. I know you try and I do appreciate that.

Say, I missed this reply. I guess I do struggle at times to separate out the religion from the spiritual core of it. Just the other night I was reading some Buddhist rant about the Dali Lama and his endorsing the teaching of Tantra, and how their women in their culture are being "abused' by those who practice Trantric copulation (it is irrelevant in his mind that the women were consenting participants, since that culture is predominately patriarchal and women are inferior), and that Tibetan Buddhism is not True Buddhism, etc. Yes, even though Buddhism has the whole Enlightenment path down to an exact science, much more clear than Christianity in this regard, people are there as well following it as some external cultural code. It is not an internal realization for people like this.

 

So I apologize if in my reaction to my own experiences I step on what is true and sacred to you. I do recognize a lot of what it attributed to Jesus as genuinely spiritual. In fact I 'get it' more now in this place. I had a whole long discussion about that here, if you are interested: http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/51158-terminology-and-jargon/ My point is that as a system, those areas of true depth are not seen or upheld as what Christianity is. It's so predominantly exoteric as a system, it fails for me. But certainly I recognize your experience as genuine. In fact, I am amazed at the clarity of your thoughts unfolding in this thread! It's true wonderful to see. I didn't say that, and should have.

[Margee]

 

There is no other way into this space except through meditation. No reason can talk you to there. At such a place, you are free. You live, you die. All things pass, and you Are.

From the bottom of my heart,I thank you antlerman.....I am going to look into this.

 

May I ask one more question? A person must be disaplined in this, I would imagine. How do you disapline yourself...... so you don't fall back to your old ways of thinking?

[Antlerman]

There is no other way into this space except through meditation. No reason can talk you to there. At such a place, you are free. You live, you die. All things pass, and you Are.

From the bottom of my heart,I thank you antlerman.....I am going to look into this.

 

May I ask one more question? A person must be disaplined in this, I would imagine. How do you disapline yourself...... so you don't fall back to your old ways of thinking?

That's sort of two different questions I hear. As far as a discipline in practice, that's just establishing new habits. There's a general rule for new habits that if you do something every day for two weeks in a row, it becomes established way of doing things. Something feels like it's missing if you don't do it. So I purposefully set my alarm clock an hour early, set times each day for beginning and end of practicing mediation. I do 60 minutes in the morning after having a cup of green tea to wake me up enough. Don't get too wrapped up in the day ahead of time, reading news, etc. Start your day this way, the same as you make time for shower, and dressing. Even 20 minutes is a good start. I do an hour because it's what I need for where I wish to go exploring, so to speak.

 

As far as old ways of thinking, I'm not sure what you mean. As you move into new territories of understanding, changed perspectives of yourself and the world, to be sure you still have established habits of thought. They are like muscle memory. But the difference is now you can actually see them, rather than just going with them without recognizing them like we normally do. In recognizing them, you continue that 'witness' forward and realize these are things that you have a new look on, and in a sense you simply replace them. Soon, you have new 'trained' habits of mind coming from this new place in your life. It's not like some external code you're trying to program yourself with to conform to something outside yourself, rather its a replacing the mind of a child with the more mature mind with a greater awareness. It's all you talking to you.

[Denyoz]

Which is OK by the way, and good and great and honourable, but is this what we're talking about here?

Probably not.....I know what it was for me to see God, I don't know if we exactly match. I think the manifestation of God happens in the various things I mentioned.....but, the common factor is self denial.

 

Hmm... maybe you're right end3. I hate to minimize someone else's experience. There is some self-denial involved in the experience Antlerman is describing. But I see it as two different paths. Funny, when I read Antlerman's posts, I think of the Dalai Lama. When I read your posts, I think of Mother Teresa. The difference between the two (as far as I can see) is, Mother Teresa is doing good "works". The Dalai Lama is not working, he's just being.