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Why It's Hard To Debate With Christians.


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Don't feed the troll. if you think he actually has something, you're as insane as he is.

 

Nah. I don't think anyone here really believes he has anything. We know he's just a lying troll. But, some of us like to rattle his cage occasionally just to remind him that we see through him and we know he's just a lying troll who has nothing.

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That's exactly what I believed when I was a Christian. Yet eventually I came to my senses when I realized it's all a sham. Christianity is mythology, and being "born again" is all in your head.

I was furiously fiddling with my balls. When I looked at my balls, my hands weren't fiddling them, must have been Jesus.

So, Jay, you were never a true atheist! lol   As to whether a born-again Christian can fall away:   1. the majority view and the longest-attested historical view is that one is born again in ba

So I tend to subscribe this view that a true born again Christian will never, ever denounce his faith and would eventually finish his life as a believer. And indeed he would rather die as a martyr than denouncing his faith.

I have had two different experiences that one might call supernatural. One was me realizing christianity was baloney the first time, when I reconverted I had a born again experience(it was different then anything I ever experienced as a believer). I deconverted for the second and final time, about 7 months later.

 

Last october due to various things, I ended up in such a bad way mentally I started hearing things that were not there. I am thick skinned enough to guess your response to this. But as a atheist I heard, god talk to me and tell me to not do something. I legitimately heard a voice I had never ever heard before in my life, talk to me. Now if what you said is true. Then I would have never deconverted the second time, and as well I would be a christian now.

 

I will tell you why I don't believe that october experience is actually god talking to me. One, the facts don't the support the hypothesis. Two, I recently had a medication change and have not had anything like that happen to me since. I don't think I was really hearing god.

 

But if your right, then I am completely batty right now and should reconvert in a heartbeat.

 

 

There are all sorts of mental phenomena. Personally, I even believe that I once heard from Satan. Please! Don't freak out. I am an Ok guy.

 

 

Born again experience is different. You know it only when you experience it. If your idea of 'born again' is somewhat hazy, chances are that you are not born again.

 

 

So let me ask you, what happened when you had this born again experience? I am just curious because my current pet thesis is that a born again Christian will not renounce his faith in Christ.

I was born again. I experienced it. I know it. Then the dogma (i.e. true Christian vs. false) tore my soul to shreds and destroyed my relationship with god. Happy labeling!

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We're waiting for your scientific proof of God's existence, your response to Citsonga's list, your criteria for identifying a true Christian...

 

 

The criteria for a true Christian has already been answered in another board:

 

 

Romans 10:9 (NIV)

If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

 

 

So there are 2 conditions. 1. "Believe in your heart that Jesus Christ has resurrected." This is not just mental assent but this should be the deepest conviction within your heart based on Biblical facts and personal revelations. That conviction leads you to the second condition.

2. "Declare with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord'." That is, confess with your mouth that Jesus Christ is God the Son and He is above you. He fully deserves your obedience and loyalty.

 

 

If you meet these 2 conditions, you are a Christian. Otherwise, you are just a seeker or a church goer.

 

1) You've contradicted yourself by these conditions. Earlier, you explicitly said that if your faith does not last for your whole life, you are not a believer. Now you are saying something different. You have moved the goalpost, JayL

 

2) I've done your #1 & #2 and firmly believed it. However, when I prayed for a husband from god because of pressure from the christian dogma (remember, it's not good to be alone), he sent me one: a committed asexual/celibate. This was unacceptable. If that's how god answers prayer, he is not worthy of being followed. I hate him for that. If he wants to be above me, he needs to perform like a leader of men and not a sarcastic, vindictive asshole.

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I wrote about this on the following thread.

 

http://www.ex-christ...ist-apparently/

 

I had debated with a Christain scholar on Theologyonline.com.

 

If anyone's interested, here's that thread again:

 

http://www.theologyo...ead.php?t=81673

 

The guy was called Town Heretic - he said he was a lawyer.

 

His argument was essentially that I could not possibly be an ex-christian because there is an inherent contradiction in apostacy. His argument was that he assumed that "trust" is a forever or nothing concept and because I doubted the Bible, I never had genuine trust to begin with and therefore did not know the real God or Jesus. He said I had a stunted faith which was more like infatuation than genuine faith. He said I was logically inconsistent irrespective of whether a God exists or not!

 

I thought perhaps at first that I was missing something, but after careful examination clearly I wasn't. It was essentially bullshit and a disingenuous tactic from someone who was more keen on winning an argument with sophistry than being interested in a genuine pursuit of truth.

What is your avatar picture?

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I wrote about this on the following thread.

 

http://www.ex-christ...ist-apparently/

 

I had debated with a Christain scholar on Theologyonline.com.

 

If anyone's interested, here's that thread again:

 

http://www.theologyo...ead.php?t=81673

 

The guy was called Town Heretic - he said he was a lawyer.

 

His argument was essentially that I could not possibly be an ex-christian because there is an inherent contradiction in apostacy. His argument was that he assumed that "trust" is a forever or nothing concept and because I doubted the Bible, I never had genuine trust to begin with and therefore did not know the real God or Jesus. He said I had a stunted faith which was more like infatuation than genuine faith. He said I was logically inconsistent irrespective of whether a God exists or not!

 

I thought perhaps at first that I was missing something, but after careful examination clearly I wasn't. It was essentially bullshit and a disingenuous tactic from someone who was more keen on winning an argument with sophistry than being interested in a genuine pursuit of truth.

What is your avatar picture?

 

A Dr Who villain called Sharaz Jek from the story Caves of Androzani (1984). He was a villain I had sympathy for because he was horribly disfigured and hiding behind a mask. But he turned good at the end. Spectrox was the name of the elixir of life drug they were all fighting about in the story.

 

What has this got to do with what I wrote about apostacy?

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God: Take my son as savior and you will rule with me for eternity.

 

Mafia Don: Sign this contract you cannot refuse and you will never want for money and nobody will mess with you.

 

God: Reject my son and you go to Hell.

 

Mafia Don: Reject my contract and you go to the bottom of the river in concrete shoes.

 

Which one is extortion?

 

Exactly. Is it God the Father or The Godfather?

 

"If you keep making payments (prayers) we can protect you from this stuff (evil spirits)."

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I can think of a few reasons.

 

1. No True Scottsman: every Christian does this to an extent. Either by claiming you were never a true Christian, that someone else isn't a true Christian, or by distancing themselves from what others believe. I'd say every Christian, even the most Liberal ones, are distancing themselves in one way or another.

 

Sometimes they actually don't believe what some of the nuttier ones do. Heck, I was raised Liberal Christian so I know. Sadly, this means that when those fundies get called out, the liberals often feel attacked, as if they are being lumped in. You can even specify that you are only targeting the fundamentalists in your rants, but they'll still go on the defensive. Therefore, entire discussions on Christianiy can go off on a tangent on how not all Christians are like that and how it's bad to stereotype (no matter how specific you've been). It's possible that the ones who responded to your rant don't really believe the version of Christianity you're debating.

 

 

 

The question whether one is a Christian or not is a surprisingly tough to answer. I started to attend a Baptist church when I was in high school ( 'Christian' ) , became an avid atheist in college ( 'UnChristian' ) , went back to church after college due to a girl I was dating at the time ( Christian again), and later losing interests ( UnChristian again for a long while), etc. Only in 1996 when I got BORN AGAIN did I truly understand what being a Christian believer is. Since then, I remained a committed Christian and my faith has been growing stronger over the years as I have more experience with God.

 

So I tend to subscribe this view that a true born again Christian will never, ever denounce his faith and would eventually finish his life as a believer. And indeed he would rather die as a martyr than denouncing his faith.

 

Wow! Cool a Christian. I am rather new here but I am so glad to see a Christian on this forum. I would love to discuss your religion with you, in particular your born again experience and how you have interpreted that, psychologically, and or spiritually, if you like. Hi!

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I can think of a few reasons.

 

1. No True Scottsman: every Christian does this to an extent. Either by claiming you were never a true Christian, that someone else isn't a true Christian, or by distancing themselves from what others believe. I'd say every Christian, even the most Liberal ones, are distancing themselves in one way or another.

 

Sometimes they actually don't believe what some of the nuttier ones do. Heck, I was raised Liberal Christian so I know. Sadly, this means that when those fundies get called out, the liberals often feel attacked, as if they are being lumped in. You can even specify that you are only targeting the fundamentalists in your rants, but they'll still go on the defensive. Therefore, entire discussions on Christianiy can go off on a tangent on how not all Christians are like that and how it's bad to stereotype (no matter how specific you've been). It's possible that the ones who responded to your rant don't really believe the version of Christianity you're debating.

 

 

 

The question whether one is a Christian or not is a surprisingly tough to answer. I started to attend a Baptist church when I was in high school ( 'Christian' ) , became an avid atheist in college ( 'UnChristian' ) , went back to church after college due to a girl I was dating at the time ( Christian again), and later losing interests ( UnChristian again for a long while), etc. Only in 1996 when I got BORN AGAIN did I truly understand what being a Christian believer is. Since then, I remained a committed Christian and my faith has been growing stronger over the years as I have more experience with God.

 

So I tend to subscribe this view that a true born again Christian will never, ever denounce his faith and would eventually finish his life as a believer. And indeed he would rather die as a martyr than denouncing his faith.

 

Wow! Cool a Christian. I am rather new here but I am so glad to see a Christian on this forum. I would love to discuss your religion with you, in particular your born again experience and how you have interpreted that, psychologically, and or spiritually, if you like. Hi!

 

Don't just don't.

 

 

JayL has been caught red handed in lies at least twice.

 

Save yourself the frustration.

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Don't just don't.

 

 

JayL has been caught red handed in lies at least twice.

 

Save yourself the frustration.

 

Excellent advice!

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Carful Mic- you're about to engage the #1 troll on Ex-C- Be aware you will waste precious time you'll never get back, and your brain will atrophy just by engaging. Otherwise, have fun!!!

 

You were warned!!! lol.

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