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Goodbye Jesus

An Email From The Father-In-Law


electech98

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For such a scholarly-sounding chap, this "Van Til" fellow is surprisingly light on actual evidence or proof. There's a real sense I got reading that link of him being congratulated by all his Christian buddies on making this extraordinary piece of apologetics, but for all that, he never actually covers the stuff that a non-Christian needs in order to deem the religion true, much less desirable. Bizarre to imagine anybody being persuaded by it, but we were all in that cesspit once, right? :) I'm glad you're out of it.

 

I'm not sure what to make of the FIL's reply, though. He didn't apologize, but he has backed off. A little. He's still very authoritarian and he's still transgressed your stated boundaries: you told him that religion was off-limits, and his immediate response, the first thing he fired back, was this link. I don't know about you, but I'd be spitting mad that my stated boundary was so quickly stomped on.

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Well, I certainly hope that this is a turning point for him in realizing that the "bull in a china shop" isn't going to work with you.

 

Here's another video that was quite helpful to me.

 

 

Eugene

Thanks for the video link! I am now going through all of Valerie Terico's videos.

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For such a scholarly-sounding chap, this "Van Til" fellow is surprisingly light on actual evidence or proof. There's a real sense I got reading that link of him being congratulated by all his Christian buddies on making this extraordinary piece of apologetics, but for all that, he never actually covers the stuff that a non-Christian needs in order to deem the religion true, much less desirable. Bizarre to imagine anybody being persuaded by it, but we were all in that cesspit once, right? smile.png I'm glad you're out of it.

 

I'm not sure what to make of the FIL's reply, though. He didn't apologize, but he has backed off. A little. He's still very authoritarian and he's still transgressed your stated boundaries: you told him that religion was off-limits, and his immediate response, the first thing he fired back, was this link. I don't know about you, but I'd be spitting mad that my stated boundary was so quickly stomped on.

Yeah, I don't know if it is ultimately an attempt to lure me into responding and getting into a theological conversation, or whatever, but as it is definitely a crossing over the boundary I set forth, I will not give it the time of day in response. The arguments are awful...if that's some of the best he can come up with, it's not going to be worth my time.

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For such a scholarly-sounding chap, this "Van Til" fellow is surprisingly light on actual evidence or proof. There's a real sense I got reading that link of him being congratulated by all his Christian buddies on making this extraordinary piece of apologetics, but for all that, he never actually covers the stuff that a non-Christian needs in order to deem the religion true, much less desirable. Bizarre to imagine anybody being persuaded by it, but we were all in that cesspit once, right? smile.png I'm glad you're out of it.

 

I'm not sure what to make of the FIL's reply, though. He didn't apologize, but he has backed off. A little. He's still very authoritarian and he's still transgressed your stated boundaries: you told him that religion was off-limits, and his immediate response, the first thing he fired back, was this link. I don't know about you, but I'd be spitting mad that my stated boundary was so quickly stomped on.

Yeah, I don't know if it is ultimately an attempt to lure me into responding and getting into a theological conversation, or whatever, but as it is definitely a crossing over the boundary I set forth, I will not give it the time of day in response. The arguments are awful...if that's some of the best he can come up with, it's not going to be worth my time.

 

I read the whole Van Til link, and I found it very weak.

 

One part stood out to me. Change/add a few words and his "argument" is turned right back around at him:

 

Now in presenting all your facts and reasons to me, you have assumed that such a God does not exist. You have taken for granted that you need no emplacement of any sort outside of yourself. You have assumed the autonomy (dependence) of your own experience. Consequently you are unable -- that is, unwilling -- to accept as a fact any fact that would challenge your self-sufficiency (god-dependency). And you are bound to call that contradictory which does not fit into the reach of your intellectual (spiritual) powers. You remember what old Procrustes did. If his visitors were too long, he cut off a few slices at each end; if they were too short, he used the curtain stretcher on them. It is that sort of thing I feel that you have done with every fact of human experience. And I am asking you to be critical of this your own most basic assumption. Will you not go into the basement of your own experience to see what has been gathering there while you were busy here and there with the surface inspection of life? You may be greatly surprised at what you find there.

 

BTW electech, I think you handled this entire situation admirably.

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For such a scholarly-sounding chap, this "Van Til" fellow is surprisingly light on actual evidence or proof. There's a real sense I got reading that link of him being congratulated by all his Christian buddies on making this extraordinary piece of apologetics, but for all that, he never actually covers the stuff that a non-Christian needs in order to deem the religion true, much less desirable. Bizarre to imagine anybody being persuaded by it, but we were all in that cesspit once, right? smile.png I'm glad you're out of it.

 

I'm not sure what to make of the FIL's reply, though. He didn't apologize, but he has backed off. A little. He's still very authoritarian and he's still transgressed your stated boundaries: you told him that religion was off-limits, and his immediate response, the first thing he fired back, was this link. I don't know about you, but I'd be spitting mad that my stated boundary was so quickly stomped on.

Yeah, I don't know if it is ultimately an attempt to lure me into responding and getting into a theological conversation, or whatever, but as it is definitely a crossing over the boundary I set forth, I will not give it the time of day in response. The arguments are awful...if that's some of the best he can come up with, it's not going to be worth my time.

 

I read the whole Van Til link, and I found it very weak.

 

One part stood out to me. Change/add a few words and his "argument" is turned right back around at him:

 

Now in presenting all your facts and reasons to me, you have assumed that such a God does not exist. You have taken for granted that you need no emplacement of any sort outside of yourself. You have assumed the autonomy (dependence) of your own experience. Consequently you are unable -- that is, unwilling -- to accept as a fact any fact that would challenge your self-sufficiency (god-dependency). And you are bound to call that contradictory which does not fit into the reach of your intellectual (spiritual) powers. You remember what old Procrustes did. If his visitors were too long, he cut off a few slices at each end; if they were too short, he used the curtain stretcher on them. It is that sort of thing I feel that you have done with every fact of human experience. And I am asking you to be critical of this your own most basic assumption. Will you not go into the basement of your own experience to see what has been gathering there while you were busy here and there with the surface inspection of life? You may be greatly surprised at what you find there.

 

BTW electech, I think you handled this entire situation admirably.

Actually, that's an awesome observation you made there! I may actually use it if he tries to goad me more into replying to his email. It's quite an obvious double-standard that they use, if you think about it.

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For some reason your FIL has taken "this topic is off-limits" to mean "go ahead and throw whatever theological bullshit you want my way, because I won't say boo about it." That mindset is an insult to you. And yes, if you do choose to engage him again, that is an awesome paragraph to throw back at him.

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He's goading you. Don't get sucked back in. I would just pretend his little apologetic pamphlet never happened. If he asks, just say the topic is off limits. Repeat. Wash rinse repeat.

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Yeah, I love that double standard - they act like we've never considered any alternative (when most were believers, and those who were not were well exposed to believers and religion) - when they refuse to consider any alternative.

 

My favorite are when they ask where the matter for the Big Bang came from, assert life cannot come from non-life for abogenesis and evolution.... but then are OK with God coming from nowhere, don't want to say what came before god since life cannot come from non-life.

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Hey all,

 

I will continue posting in the "I told my wife" thread with updates on how things are going, but for now I thought I'd put this in a separate thread because it seems to me it would merit its own special responses apart from how things are going with the wife, etc.

 

I received an email from my father-in-law last night (remember, he is also a pastor in the same denomination we are members of). I will be taking a few days to compose myself to write out a thoughtful reply, but I would love to hear some useful things from you all that I could possibly use in part of my reply to him.

 

In sum, my wife talked to him the other day, and told her of my "struggling with the faith". She did not go so far as to say that I already consider myself an unbeliever or an atheist, but it sounds like (from his email) that she let on enough to get a very stern response from him. So, without further ado, here is the email:

 

Dear Jeremy,

 

I write having been in prayer for you and you family with Christian love and I write continuing to pray for you and I speak the truth to you in love, and I ask for your forgiveness ahead of time if indeed I am misrepresenting the situation.

 

I'm sure you're aware that <wife's name> has spoken to me about her concerns regarding your expressed "doubts", really lack of the true faith you have professed.

 

True faith, as you professed, may you receive this as a strong reminder, is, in part: a sure knowledge whereby I hold for truth all that God has revealed to us in His Word.

If, indeed, you have doubts about what is truth, than you are in effect doubting God's Word as Truth, and, to make such doubt even more critical, you are doubting Christ Jesus who is the Truth manifested in its fullness. So if indeed you have doubts about what is truth, you are no longer having your thoughts in captivity to the obedience of Christ (2 Cor 10:5). To doubt any scriptural doctrine is to place yourself as judge over the Scriptures. In essence, it's the oldest sin of wanting to be as God. It's characteristic of existentialism ( very similar to postmodernism), in that you are then essentially claiming that existence precedes essence. That is, you are the determiner, as the source by existence, of what is of essence- truth. That view suppresses the truth of the primacy of God as the Creator and the interpreter of all facts - God is the objective reality outside of you, and by His revelation by way of the creation and more fully by His Word reality, truth, is knowable by us, unless we suppress it in unrighteousness. Of course, all men in Adam do just that ( Rom 1), but in Christ our minds are renewed to acknowledge His Word as truth as we then so confess.

 

Now if you do have doubts about what is truth, then you have allowed "foolishness" ( I Cor 1: 19-21) to detrimentally influence your mindset. This can sadly be the case for us who are Christians because we live in the "not-yet" which is prior to our full sanctification and perfection through the resurrection. Wrong thinking, is for us, lack of due diligence to "watch and pray, lest you enter into temptation" (Matt 26:41). It's a matter of not putting off the old man and putting on the new man. It's a matter of not paying careful heed to what Christ's apostle Paul wrote to the Ephesian Christians: This I say, and testify in the Lord, that you should no longer walk as the rest of the Gentiles walk in the futility of their mind. (Eph 4:17. Rather...be renewed in the spirit of your mind. And then he goes on in Chapter 5 and tells us to walk as children of light, testing and approving what is pleasing to the Lord.

 

Are you doing that, Jeremy? Are you renewing your mind with the Word of God or are you putting foolishness into it? Are you testing your thoughts and your actions by the standard of God's Word ...because when you do it's easily clear what is and what is not pleasing to God. And then, are you approving of what is pleasing to God...making it your choice in line with what is pleasing to God? I just preached on Eph 5:10 ..I would encourage you to listen to that sermon...it's at <website>.

 

Jeremy, it's a matter of renewing you mind and God will do that as you make use of His Word and stop putting foolishness into it.

That is your calling as a Christian and especially as you are the spiritual head of your household --my daughter and my grandchildren. You are as Christ to <wife's name>, and you corrupt the marriage metaphor if you do not believe and witness and teach the truth to her. And you vowed at the baptism of your children to bring them up in the nurture of the Lord, the Truth, and it is your responsibility before the Lord to faithfully do so.

 

Your lack of belief in the truth, if that is indeed the case, is sinful selfishness because it shows no concern for the welfare of your wife and children.

I believe this is a backsliding episode in your life, and the Lord will sanctify you, but it might be by way of hardships and misery that will impact your family.

That is avoidable if indeed you repent and and get your mind renewed to again think God's thoughts after Him, submitting to Him as you have been redeemed to do for His glory and your delight in Him.

I know wiley ways of the devil and so I understand how you can come to mistrust God's Word. But read nothing but Scripture and books that affirm the doctrines of Scripture and once again you will come to know both intellectually and experientially that by Christ all things were created that are in heaven and on earth....all things were created through Him and for HIm and He is before all things and in HIm all things consist. (Col: 1:16-17).

 

Any one who does not grasp the preeminence of Christ and the surpassing excellence of God will live a wasted life.

 

Don't waste your life by keeping on going down that path of doubt.

 

Be the husband and father you can only be by the grace of God in whom you must place your trust as the Truth.

 

I pray you will heed these prayerful words of one who loves you and wants what is best for you, and your beloved family.

 

Feel free to write or call. I'm here to help.

 

In Christ with love,

 

Dad

 

So, thoughts? Keep it clean wink.png

 

Hi Electech98,

 

I think only you can handle this one, as you need to keep in mind that your father-in-law, is a member of your family, your wife's father and your childrens grandfather. It is a tough situation and you must be suffering. I do not envy you. Having read the email, I think the weakest part of his argument, and let's face it, that is what it is, is where he says; "True faith, as you professed, may you receive this as a strong reminder, is, in part: a sure knowledge whereby I hold for truth all that God has revealed to us in His Word."

 

Firstly, if you think about the issue of faith, philosophically, it represents a kind of courage to persist in the face of uncertainty. So if you have a strong belief in god/Jesus, or whatever, then you do not really have faith, as thier is no uncertainty to be couragous in the face of.

 

Secondly, he is assuming that the Scriptures actually reflect the "word of God." So the faith here is not in God/Jesus, but in the authors and approvers of these manuscripts, which almost all Bible scholars agree, contain contradictions, errors and out right forgeries.

 

Thirdly, the definition of "faith" as he has given it to you is not "faith" but "knowledge," the two are almost antithetical to one another. Faith requires ignorance, whereas knowledge does not.

 

Finally, compartmentalize this issue in your mind, that is, shield the rest of your existence from this tumult so that you can focus on loving and enjoying your family, especially your kids. Be firm, honest and most importantly, be yourself.

 

Here is a link to two clips to cheer you up!

 

 

 

Let humor be your weapon, and your friend!

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It does seem he's toned it down a bunch which is good.

 

In all honesty its not hard to see where he's coming from, I could imagine myself being in the same situation a few years ago if I found out someone I loved lost their faith. I still get calls from family (those who know how I feel), about getting my life right because god's coming soon or I could die anytime, this isn't a game, ect.

 

Its completely understandable. You married his daughter while a christian, now youre not one. He's worried about your salvation and that of his daughter's and your children. An unbelieving father can bring down the faith of his family (do not be unequally yoked, blah blah).

 

Its times like these that I wish that just for a short while your father in law could see the world as you do, you've been in his shoes, too bad he can't be in yours just for a little while.

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Sigh.

 

Just got a book in the mail from him from Amazon. It is entitled "Who Made God" by Edgar Andrews (http://amzn.com/0852347073)

 

If this keeps up, I'm definitely going to have to give him a final word regarding the boundaries I set.

 

He doesn't seem to know what the phrase "off-limits" means.

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Just send him some darkmatter2525 clips via email. That should give us 15 more pages of material for this thread. :)

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Just send him some darkmatter2525 clips via email. That should give us 15 more pages of material for this thread. :)

 

Awesome answer, love it!!

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My dad's been giving me books too! What is it they think they are going to achieve? bleh

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Just send him some darkmatter2525 clips via email. That should give us 15 more pages of material for this thread. smile.png

Right on. We MUST be approaching some sort of record for largest thread in the Testimonies forum?

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Just got a book in the mail from him from Amazon. It is entitled "Who Made God" by Edgar Andrews (http://amzn.com/0852347073)

 

The first and last time my dad gave me a book, I read it and marked up the margins with a critique of everything in it. I gave it back, saying, "I read the book and had some issues with it. I made some notes in the margins that might interest you." He just laughed. I threw out the book.

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Can you return the book to Amazon, get a credit, and buy something else?

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Can you return the book to Amazon, get a credit, and buy something else?

 

I had a thought a bit along the same lines. I thought about whether you could sell it on to someone who would want it and thus turn a profit.

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Just send him the book back and suggest he gives it to someone that cares about invisible gods.

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Just got a book in the mail from him from Amazon. It is entitled "Who Made God" by Edgar Andrews (http://amzn.com/0852347073)

 

The first and last time my dad gave me a book, I read it and marked up the margins with a critique of everything in it. I gave it back, saying, "I read the book and had some issues with it. I made some notes in the margins that might interest you." He just laughed. I threw out the book.

 

This. Do this, tear it to shreds with logic and throw it back at him. I think this is actually a very good path to take. Will drive the point home like no other. He will never send you another book, and will know you arrived at your conclusion for good reason.

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I'm kind of liking this idea.

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Just got a book in the mail from him from Amazon. It is entitled "Who Made God" by Edgar Andrews (http://amzn.com/0852347073)

 

The first and last time my dad gave me a book, I read it and marked up the margins with a critique of everything in it. I gave it back, saying, "I read the book and had some issues with it. I made some notes in the margins that might interest you." He just laughed. I threw out the book.

 

This. Do this, tear it to shreds with logic and throw it back at him. I think this is actually a very good path to take. Will drive the point home like no other. He will never send you another book, and will know you arrived at your conclusion for good reason.

 

Good ideas!

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I'm going to disagree. As anyone who has been around this site long enough knows, logic slides off an xian's back like water off a duck and challenges simply bring more challenges.

 

I'd recommend ignoring the book unless you want to kick off a round of tit for tat that won't end until someone is seriously pissed off. (see every single debate thread on this forum for an idea what these things devolve into).

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While I am disappointed that this didn't end in a large explosion, I'm glad for your sake it didn't. I like the idea with the notes in the margins. Then he can't accuse you of being "close-minded" because you didn't read his shitty book. I did something similar once, except I had to write my stuff on a full sheet of notebook paper because there was just SO much to criticize.

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I'm going to disagree. As anyone who has been around this site long enough knows, logic slides off an xian's back like water off a duck and challenges simply bring more challenges.

 

I'd recommend ignoring the book unless you want to kick off a round of tit for tat that won't end until someone is seriously pissed off. (see every single debate thread on this forum for an idea what these things devolve into).

 

I get this too. It's obviously up to you ET. You know your FIL better than we do.

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