An Email From The Father-In-Law

[midniterider]

I ought let you know that I am praying that the Lord give you no peace in your life until

your once again embrace the faith you did profess.

The classic fortuneteller's move - if anything bad happens, he can say it's the result of his prayers. And since some bad always happens (a car repair, a sickness, etc.), he'll always be able to say it worked, so you now must believe.

 

I've got to say, I'd have a hard time not responding:

 

I ought to let you know that I am praying Odin gives you no peace in your life until you sacrifice two doves and a goat.

 

I think it might be worth it and will communicate how you see his threats.

 

 

 

So who has peace in their lives whether they believe in Jesus or not? Yeah, thought so. Life is full of ups and downs all the time. Praying that god gives you no peace in your life is like praying that the sun goes up and goes down everyday. Derrrr.

[Peace]

Lovely.

 

 

It's amazing that he can't see the contradictions in his own thinking.

[raoul]

Hey all,

 

I will continue posting in the "I told my wife" thread with updates on how things are going, but for now I thought I'd put this in a separate thread because it seems to me it would merit its own special responses apart from how things are going with the wife, etc.

 

I received an email from my father-in-law last night (remember, he is also a pastor in the same denomination we are members of). I will be taking a few days to compose myself to write out a thoughtful reply, but I would love to hear some useful things from you all that I could possibly use in part of my reply to him.

 

In sum, my wife talked to him the other day, and told her of my "struggling with the faith". She did not go so far as to say that I already consider myself an unbeliever or an atheist, but it sounds like (from his email) that she let on enough to get a very stern response from him. So, without further ado, here is the email:

 

Dear Jeremy,

 

I write having been in prayer for you and you family with Christian love and I write continuing to pray for you and I speak the truth to you in love, and I ask for your forgiveness ahead of time if indeed I am misrepresenting the situation.

 

I'm sure you're aware that <wife's name> has spoken to me about her concerns regarding your expressed "doubts", really lack of the true faith you have professed.

 

True faith, as you professed, may you receive this as a strong reminder, is, in part: a sure knowledge whereby I hold for truth all that God has revealed to us in His Word.

If, indeed, you have doubts about what is truth, than you are in effect doubting God's Word as Truth, and, to make such doubt even more critical, you are doubting Christ Jesus who is the Truth manifested in its fullness. So if indeed you have doubts about what is truth, you are no longer having your thoughts in captivity to the obedience of Christ (2 Cor 10:5). To doubt any scriptural doctrine is to place yourself as judge over the Scriptures. In essence, it's the oldest sin of wanting to be as God. It's characteristic of existentialism ( very similar to postmodernism), in that you are then essentially claiming that existence precedes essence. That is, you are the determiner, as the source by existence, of what is of essence- truth. That view suppresses the truth of the primacy of God as the Creator and the interpreter of all facts - God is the objective reality outside of you, and by His revelation by way of the creation and more fully by His Word reality, truth, is knowable by us, unless we suppress it in unrighteousness. Of course, all men in Adam do just that ( Rom 1), but in Christ our minds are renewed to acknowledge His Word as truth as we then so confess.

 

Now if you do have doubts about what is truth, then you have allowed "foolishness" ( I Cor 1: 19-21) to detrimentally influence your mindset. This can sadly be the case for us who are Christians because we live in the "not-yet" which is prior to our full sanctification and perfection through the resurrection. Wrong thinking, is for us, lack of due diligence to "watch and pray, lest you enter into temptation" (Matt 26:41). It's a matter of not putting off the old man and putting on the new man. It's a matter of not paying careful heed to what Christ's apostle Paul wrote to the Ephesian Christians: This I say, and testify in the Lord, that you should no longer walk as the rest of the Gentiles walk in the futility of their mind. (Eph 4:17. Rather...be renewed in the spirit of your mind. And then he goes on in Chapter 5 and tells us to walk as children of light, testing and approving what is pleasing to the Lord.

 

Are you doing that, Jeremy? Are you renewing your mind with the Word of God or are you putting foolishness into it? Are you testing your thoughts and your actions by the standard of God's Word ...because when you do it's easily clear what is and what is not pleasing to God. And then, are you approving of what is pleasing to God...making it your choice in line with what is pleasing to God? I just preached on Eph 5:10 ..I would encourage you to listen to that sermon...it's at <website>.

 

Jeremy, it's a matter of renewing you mind and God will do that as you make use of His Word and stop putting foolishness into it.

That is your calling as a Christian and especially as you are the spiritual head of your household --my daughter and my grandchildren. You are as Christ to <wife's name>, and you corrupt the marriage metaphor if you do not believe and witness and teach the truth to her. And you vowed at the baptism of your children to bring them up in the nurture of the Lord, the Truth, and it is your responsibility before the Lord to faithfully do so.

 

Your lack of belief in the truth, if that is indeed the case, is sinful selfishness because it shows no concern for the welfare of your wife and children.

I believe this is a backsliding episode in your life, and the Lord will sanctify you, but it might be by way of hardships and misery that will impact your family.

That is avoidable if indeed you repent and and get your mind renewed to again think God's thoughts after Him, submitting to Him as you have been redeemed to do for His glory and your delight in Him.

I know wiley ways of the devil and so I understand how you can come to mistrust God's Word. But read nothing but Scripture and books that affirm the doctrines of Scripture and once again you will come to know both intellectually and experientially that by Christ all things were created that are in heaven and on earth....all things were created through Him and for HIm and He is before all things and in HIm all things consist. (Col: 1:16-17).

 

Any one who does not grasp the preeminence of Christ and the surpassing excellence of God will live a wasted life.

 

Don't waste your life by keeping on going down that path of doubt.

 

Be the husband and father you can only be by the grace of God in whom you must place your trust as the Truth.

 

I pray you will heed these prayerful words of one who loves you and wants what is best for you, and your beloved family.

 

Feel free to write or call. I'm here to help.

 

In Christ with love,

 

Dad

 

So, thoughts? Keep it clean

Keep it clean? I guess telling him to go f**k himself isn't appropriate right? But that's exactly what a condenscending type crappola email deserves. The guy began with a guilt tripping condemnation, ie: doubting God is a total taboo because you ought to just blindly believe no matter what. Haven't I said this before - these people are incredibly dangerous.

[Wings]

I haven't been to this thread for a while- I see that I"m a little behind- but I can't help but giggle. Electech, know we are from similar Reformed backgrounds and your FIL just uses the most ridiculous language that it's almost hard to take seriously on one hand (although it echoes a few of the nasty emails I've gotten). I mean, really, when else is someone going to say they're providing information for your "edification"??

 

The irony is that our doctrine is one of predestination (thanks Calvin), meaning god has chosen already chosen 'the elect' who will go to heaven and we actually have no choice in our own salvation (whether is accepting Jesus or not), but they get so pissed at US when GOD chooses not to elect?! Being on the receiving end of that bullying is not only painful, it's friggin' confusing!

 

The challenge is that most Calvinists are presupposionalists... that is, they presuppose that God is, always was and always will be. There is absolutely no frame of reference where God is not and your FIL will probably have that mindset. You can't even offer "what if" scenarios, (annoying!), because they refuse to accept their possibility. Reasonable Doubts has an interesting podcast about debating with presupposiionalists-- my favourite line was something like, "at the end of the day, if you can't debate with them, just belittle them. They're Calvinists. They're used to hearing it from the pulpit every sunday anyway." Lol.

 

Hope the radio silence is working for you! I love not hearing from my family anymore :)

[reluctantagn]

There is nothing harder to open than a closed mind. I don't know who said that but I certainly think it is true. I've known several people like that. Arguing with them is pointless.

I would probably avoid him as much as possible. If I had to speak to him, I would say something like this. "I don't believe in God, I don't believe the Bible, Calvin or you. I really have nothing else to say about it and have no interest in hearing what you have to say about it".

[MerryG]

I know I'm late the the party, having just found these forums a couple of days ago. But Electech, I'm appalled (though not surprised) at your FIL's smug, clueless condescension. He's a step below most of the Christians I've dealt with in not even caring about or trying to answer your particular doubts. But then, he's also showing you the true nature of Christianity -- DO WHATEVER ARBITRARY THING I DEMAND -- OR ELSE.

 

I applaud you in being able to keep silence. I doubt I'd have your fortitude, but indeed your silence is your most powerful tool against such unreasoning, threatening behavior. You be da MAN!

[electech98]

Thank you, MerryG! Trust me, it is so hard to stay silent sometimes...but then I think of the long debates that would inevitable ensue, and that makes it easier to clam up.

[Sheldon]

I think you ought to leave the missus out of this. This is between you and FIL, IF you even want to bother responding. I really think you shouldn't say anythin. If he has the nerve to actually get in your face, THEN and only then would I bother "answering" to him, because that is exactly what you would be doing. You owe him not a single explanation as to why you who you are. He either has to accept it or part ways. Really very simple.

 

If your wife is somehow in on this, I would shame her. I really would. She has no business having people help jump your shit. How would she feel if we all started bombarding her with emails about how her views or wrong, or worse, that she isn't living up to her marriage vows to you since she is obviously sleeping with God on the side.

Whatever she told her father in their conversation last week is what would have made him email me. I need to find out exactly what she told him.

 

EDIT: although, now that I think about it, I think he does know I had read a couple books by John Loftus, etc. due to my conversations with my friend from LA who deconverted, but he never said anything about it then. See http://www.ex-christ...post__p__746420 for that story. That may be why he is urging me to only read the Bible and Christianity-focused material. He may be putting 2 and 2 together.

 

I hope your wife stands by you in this situation, or otherwise, you're in a bad situation here.

As others here have said, yes, it sounds like your father-in-law is trying to use his faith to manipulate you/drive a wedge in the family.

 

It's rather telling to me, that instead of trying to question you about your doubts, what specifically you take issue with Christianity about, and trying to help you through this time, give you well-mean counsel, he is condemning you, and acting like you are this villain who is going to lead his family astray.

 

Says a lot about him as a person for sure....

[★ Citsonga ★]

I just read through this thread. WOW, I am appalled by the sheer arrogance of your FIL (which could also stand for "F'n Idiotic Lunatic"). I find it quite ironic how he calls you stubborn, self-centered and all that crap when his own tone is just dripping with that very attitude. What a condescending, controlling prick. I've been in a few difficult family situations, but nothing quite as bad as what you've experienced, so I don't know how I'd respond.

 

I'm reading through it (I want to be a good skeptic, and not automatically dismiss an argument presented to me outright without considering it first), but will not respond to it. I think it makes my wife a bit happier to know I am reading through it instead of totally disregarding it.

 

That's a noble approach. The percentage of Christians who would do the same with a skeptic's book is extremely small.

[wndwalkr99]

This whole thing is so incredibly frustrating and infuriating.

[electech98]

Just to update you all, in case you are interested:

 

My FIL has since sent me a few more emails and another book. The book was "Why God Won't Go Away" by Alister McGrath (http://amzn.com/084994645X). I have yet to read it, as I'm currently enjoying other non-religious books at the moment (some history, some fiction, etc.)

 

But here is his latest email:

 

Hi Jeremy

Not a day goes by (well, maybe one here and there ) that I don't think of and pray for you, and of course,

for my daughter and our grandchildren.

You've never told me specifically what you no longer believe of what you once confessed to believe,

but it seems to me, from what I have heard of you, that you are an apostate.

So I hope you will read the attached commentary by John Owen on Hebrews 10. Whether you give the passage

any credence or have any desire to hear what Owen has to say, if indeed it true that you do desire to

believe the truths of the Christian faith (( if only you could), then please do read this whether you want to or not.

For the Lord may use it to convict you of the treacherous ground upon which you are treading by

renouncing the truth you have once received. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God!

In Christ and in the hope and prayer you will yet be found in Him.

 

Dad

 

I'm thinking with this last email, it might be time to remind him of the boundary I set, call him out for not respecting it, and tell him that he is not to send another correspondence to me (whether through email or letter or book) pertaining to religion or faith.

 

What do you guys think? We are going to see them in person in December for my brother-in-law's wedding, so I think at least he should know his emails and books have been received and that he has stepped over the boundaries I set in order to send them to me. That way he knows exactly where I'm at come December, and we hopefully won't have an awkward Q&A session while I'm there.

[mymistake]

Just to update you all, in case you are interested:

 

My FIL has since sent me a few more emails and another book. The book was "Why God Won't Go Away" by Alister McGrath (http://amzn.com/084994645X). I have yet to read it, as I'm currently enjoying other non-religious books at the moment (some history, some fiction, etc.)

 

I can't imagine why somebody would need an entire book to explain the obvious. Somebody cannot "go away" if they were never here in the first place and they don't actually exist.

 

I'm thinking with this last email, it might be time to remind him of the boundary I set, call him out for not respecting it, and tell him that he is not to send another correspondence to me (whether through email or letter or book) pertaining to religion or faith.

 

What do you guys think? We are going to see them in person in December for my brother-in-law's wedding, so I think at least he should know his emails and books have been received and that he has stepped over the boundaries I set in order to send them to me. That way he knows exactly where I'm at come December, and we hopefully won't have an awkward Q&A session while I'm there.

 

I would be sure to include your hope that there will be no awkward Q&A. I would be specific about that. I don't see what you have to gain from getting into a religious debate with him. It would be a complete waste of your time and energy.

[electech98]

To be more clear, the full title of the book is "Why God Won't Go Away - Is The New Atheism Running on Empty?"

 

It's more of a criticism of the New Atheism movement than anything. My FIL's thinking is that I've probably gone from one organized movement (Christianity) to another. That couldn't be further from the truth.

[blackpudd1n]

For the Lord may use it to convict you of the treacherous ground upon which you are treading by

renouncing the truth you have once received. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God!

 

Well, I'm well and truly gone now, I guess. The bit quoted above literally had me laughing out loud.

 

I don't think he'll ever respect any boundaries you set. So it might be time to play hardball and enforce those boundaries.

[roadrunner]

I feel for you. I can see now the headache from having them slip god into my kids head and when and if they grow up freethinkers they can hate me forever.

[Akheia]

I think that yes you should remind him of your boundaries and call him out for showing so little respect for them. He is again treating you like a little child and acting like he has the right--and even the obligation--to order you around and demand you read stuff "whether you want to or not." I agree that there is no real point in talking about religion with someone who is trying that hard to set himself up as your superior and you up as his inferior.

 

It's also very telling that he thinks of your kids as "his grandchildren." That's a blurring of boundaries and identity that is very troubling to me.

[centauri]

....So I hope you will read the attached commentary by John Owen on Hebrews 10. Whether you give the passage

any credence or have any desire to hear what Owen has to say, if indeed it true that you do desire to

believe the truths of the Christian faith (( if only you could), then please do read this whether you want to or not.

For the Lord may use it to convict you of the treacherous ground upon which you are treading by

renouncing the truth you have once received. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God!

Your FIL is doing exactly what I thought he would do given enough time....he's ignoring your previous requests.

His version of God must be your God, his version of "truth" must be your truth.

Frankly, I think he needs to realize that the more he does this type of insulting, degrading, scolding parent routine, the more you'll want to avoid him completely.

I wouldn't respond in any way. Just let him stew in the juices he created.

In December, I would just act as if you never got any of his material.

[Tabitha]

Hey electech, just finished reading the whole thread - so sorry about your doom and gloom FIL, and the cruel loyalty test he's playing with your wife. One thing I'd like to point out about his emails, is that there are no inquiries about you or your family in them. When he doesn't give you so much as a how are you to answer, what is he expecting to hear from you? "Yes, Dad, I am an ugly, selfish apostate. I want to believe. Please help me." He gives you nothing to respond to, according to your boundaries, which are very important you keep. I would highly reccomend reading THE GOD VIRUS, by Darrel W. Ray, to help you to communicate with your FIL without addressing his "virus". I think you're correct not to answer his emails, until he stops using threats from beyond in them, and using "apostate" as a descriptive word for you.

BTW, I think it's great you are reading the books he sends, which are only further cementing your conclusions - use it as an opportunity to have subtly subversive discussions with your wife, under the guise of "spiritual conversation". Good luck to you!

[mymistake]

To be more clear, the full title of the book is "Why God Won't Go Away - Is The New Atheism Running on Empty?"

 

It's more of a criticism of the New Atheism movement than anything. My FIL's thinking is that I've probably gone from one organized movement (Christianity) to another. That couldn't be further from the truth.

 

Oh that is interesting. I had to google a few reviews. The only ones I found were from Christians. Apparently the New Atheists are a terrorist organization that commits crimes against humanity such as calling religious people "cowards" and saying various other things about religious people that are not nice at all. Who knows what horrible thing the New Atheists might say next?

[electech98]

Tabitha, I have actually read The God Virus a while ago. I loved the book. Maybe I need to reread it to brush up on the themes and arguments used

 

Another good book that goes into more of the history of the rise of Christianity by way of politics, geography, etc. is Richard Carrier's Not The Impossible Faith: Why Christianity Didn't Need A Miracle To Succeed. It touches more on answering people who say Christianity is as big as it is only by God's miraculous power, as opposed to political/militaristic and socialistic reasons.

 

The God Delusion is a great book to show how a religion can spread and infect culture, and Not The Impossible Faith is a great book to show in more detail how exactly that happened in the case of Christianity.

[TrueFreedom]

I picture a pastor/professor friend of mine when I read these letters. I've confided in him while going through my deconversion and since, and he speaks to me in person that way, but it comes out in a slightly passive aggressive but powerless way. I just laugh it off. Family who suspects my heresy, if not apostasy, has been fairly timid in confronting me about it. If it does come up in the future, hopefully it won't be as blatant and confrontational as you expect. If you feel the need to enforce boundaries, go for it, but that may harm your relationship more than you intended. He means well. He's just deluded into thinking that he is responsible for you.

[TheBluegrassSkeptic]

As true says above, hopefully he isn't going to be overly confrontational. It seems to me, personally, I would view this as a direct challenge to authority in my life. I don't know the dynamic of your relationship enough to understand why he would even throw his weight around this much in your life, but I directly had a conversation with my own parents (but they are horribly SHITTY people), and I made it clear that I do not believe in God at all. I do not accept the doctrines of the Bible at all. When they questioned me why, I asked them why it was important to them if they believe that the ultimate judge is their idol? Yeah, they didn't have an answer for that at first. Of course, my mom piped in that she just loves me and doesn't want to see me still struggling in life so much because I am lost from God. I just turned that around and said that maybe I would have had more faith in Him if I could've been delivered from the verbal, physical and sexual abuse of my childhood that I suffered at their hands.

 

Convo didn't really go much further than that. But it's part of the truth and I find if you counter their delusion with the facts of YOUR experiences with THEM, they shut up pretty quick.

 

Good luck! I would at the very least send him another cease and desist and make him aware you want tolerate any talking on this subject at the wedding. If he does, it's going to look bad on him taking away from the joy of the wedding. Selfish bastard!

[mcdaddy]

You probably don't wanna hear my answer, homie.

 

 

 

But it rhymes with duck soft.

[Denyoz]

Sometimes I wish my family and in-laws would give me this much attention...

[Tzarza]

(First post, yay!)

 

Hey electech,

 

I just wanted to thank you for keeping up with this story. It seems to be a long time running, but I've just read through everything for the first time today. Although I don't have a situation quite similar to yours, I have appreciated seeing how carefully you have chosen to react to your FIL (which is in my darkest dreams something like how my mother will react when I tell her that I'm an ex). You seem to be trying at least to consider his side rather than write him off as insane. (Maybe that's just for the children? haha).

 

Regarding how I see Christians today, part of me wants to react with "FUCK 'EM!"s and relish the feeling that those who are still Christians are lunatics who believe in an imaginary friend. But part of me remembers exactly what it was like to be one, and how (misguidedly) loving they think they are being. As great and entertaining as some of the responses have been, I just wanted to say thank you for reacting to all of this in an even-handed way, and not reacting as if those who are still Christians are evil or stupid; (which has obviously been very hard with an FIL like yours haha). I think that, as many volatile feelings are wrapped up in decon, railing on how bad Christians are can be just as bad as when Christians demonize non-believers. So thanks for keeping your head.

 

Something you haven't talked about quite as much is your wife. I am curious about how your wife has been handling your decon, and how you've managed to maintain or even strengthen that relationship during your decon. (No need to respond if that's too personal).

 

You have outstanding patience!

Thanks again,

Tzarza