electech98 Posted October 10, 2012 Author Share Posted October 10, 2012 Wow, thanks Tzarza! I'm glad you actually read the whole thing, and that you chose to make your first post on this entire board a response to my thread. One thing I'm constantly trying to remind myself is that I used to be in their position. When a friend or family member would leave the faith, my responses were exactly the same as the responses I am receiving now with my own deconversion. And it's just how everyone is conditioned to react. So I think a little understanding goes a long way. Some people will always react more angrily than others, but that's what boundaries are for. I think if someone knows you are in control of yourself and you are setting boundaries with how people are to communicate with you, it will cause those people (more often than not) to at least consider WHY you had to put a boundary there in the first place. Like with my father-in-law, his tone got a lot less vitriolic/authoritative after I sent him my one response to his first two emails. Over time, and especially with the last email he sent, I can see that he might slowly start coming back to authoritative/demanding emails, but there again is where I would remind him of the boundary I set in place and firmly stick to it. It's hard getting to place of knowing that you, like myself, can put those boundaries in place and you are beholden to NO ONE to conform to their little box of how they think you should be. It's part of growing up, I guess. My wife lately has been wanting to be more communicative, even if we have hard discussions, and I let her know recently that it is hard to even tell her my thoughts and feelings due to how mistrustful I am of the whole religious system where everyone feels entitled to share other people's business "in the service of God and helping people come to the light". People will tend to forget civil discourse with one another for the sake of making sure everyone is praying for the things that you are struggling with or the things that are causing you to fall deeper into unbelief. Anything is fair game: fears, doubts, wanting to express oneself more freely in various ways that tend to conflict with the Christian worldview, etc. People tend to take what they consider to be a "sin" and use it as leverage against you in order to say stuff like "see, once you stopped believing you did this and this and that worldly thing...you need to repent and come back to Christ!!" So, I think I helped my wife understand where I'm coming from. I did apologize to her for keeping quiet these days, but I also tried to make her see where I was coming from. That conversation the other night ended pretty well, even though there were tears on her end, but at some point in the conversation it seemed like she started really listening to what I had to say in response to her rhetoric or "packaged" Christian statements. I think there comes a point in some Christians where they run out of the canned Christian statements and they have to start actually thinking about what we are saying. Hopefully my wife is closer to that point. Thanks again for responding, Tzarza! Do you have a deconversion story on this forum yet? Hope to hear back soon! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
★ Citsonga ★ Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 I think there comes a point in some Christians where they run out of the canned Christian statements and they have to start actually thinking about what we are saying. Hopefully my wife is closer to that point. Here's wishing the same! Good luck with her and your FIL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tzarza Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 That conversation the other night ended pretty well, even though there were tears on her end, but at some point in the conversation it seemed like she started really listening to what I had to say in response to her rhetoric or "packaged" Christian statements. I think there comes a point in some Christians where they run out of the canned Christian statements and they have to start actually thinking about what we are saying. Hopefully my wife is closer to that point. I'm glad to hear that she's hearing where you're coming from now. It can be hard to come around like that. I think back on all of the times that as a Christian, my peers and I were coached to pursue a God-centered relationship etc. It just seems like a nightmare to have to redefine what the relationship is centered around (if God-centered was ever the case for you before). I'm glad you're able to keep communication open, I know that it's so important! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortCakeSlayer Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 Hi Elec, I was following this thread while waiting for my registration to be approved; I think you've gotten great support, advice, and I can totally understand how difficult this must be for you. I haven't come out "all the way" yet to my family and can only admire your strength and fortitude in handling your father in law. But I've already tucked one failed marriage into my belt and felt the need to say at least this: Your wife is 100% your primary concern in this matter; your Father in law, in all reality, shouldn't even be a blip on the map, as big of a pain in the ass that he is. I think the way you've responded to him and your paster so far is brilliant; civil, polite, and reminding them of their basic human societal graces that many Christians like to forgo in the face of "saving someone's soul." They've totally tried to stampede over you, and failed. I'm glad, also, that your wife wants to communicate more to you. One of the main, glaring reasons why my marriage failed was that my ex and I never talked to each other outside of a superficial level. We were both young and going through a lot of changes, and in the face of these changes, the point of communicating is to constantly let your spouse know where you're "at" and who you are. She's had this vision of you as a man in her head for however long you've been married, and now that that's changing she needs to know what you're thinking, feeling, going through, etc, so she can adjust her mental image of you. Without that anchor in her mind she's going to be thinking all sorts of things (humans like to fill in the blanks when we don't have enough information) and she's IS going to be getting pressure from other people outside of your marriage about your faith change. That's a given. So if someone comes up to her in the grocery store and starts talking about how godless men go to titty bars and do drugs, are unfaithful and horrible fathers, if she doesn't have a strong enough measure of you as a person in her head to counter these words, they're going to have weight and they're going to start affecting how she sees you. So keep on talking to her. Even if you're afraid, or you have to go out of your way to start a conversation about it. You're her husband and what you tell her is always going to be stronger than what other people tell her, but if you tell her nothing, well....yeah. Be totally honest when you let her know what you're thinking. She needs to relearn who you are, now. You're going to be working against the age old Christian bias that all non-Christians are drug-abusing unfaithful baby eaters. Introduce her to some good ole' secular morality And I think this would be a good topic to discuss with her, so that she knows that your morals and values and desires to be a good person are still intact, but your belief in fairy tales is the thing that's changed. You may have already talked to her about this, but do it over and over again, cause she's going to be getting hammered behind your back with peoples "opinions" about you. Hope that helps. I'm in no place to give relationship advice to anyone, ever, but I feel I've at least learned that little bit from my own escapades and can only hope other people learn from my own mistakes. Good luck! Keep us up to date on what's happening. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilith666 Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 "...You are the spiritual head of your household....You are as X to your wife, and you corrupt the marriage metaphor if you do not believe and witness and teach the truth to her." Because women are too stupid to learn anything themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akheia Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 Good catch, Lilith Was it WMD who called it our fluffy pink ladybrainz? That must be it. It's our fluffy pink ladybrainz. We're just too damn stupid to run our own lives. Got to have a MAY-YUN to keep up the metaphor! Because if the metaphor turns out not to be true, then oh my goodness we might faint! Can't have metaphors getting corrupted! Who knows what'll happen next--vacuuming without wearing heels and a pearl necklace? Chaos, I tell you! Chaos! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilith666 Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 Yep, it was. Reminds me of when I was reading Pink Think. I used to wish I were less of a critical thinker and more "feminine". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akheia Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 I'm glad you are exactly the way you are <3 You wouldn't believe how many times I've been accused of being "really" male. I'm still chewing on the implications of it. Back in fundie-land I got told on more than a few occasions that it was too bad I was female and couldn't be a wandering evangelist. Fuck 'em if they can't take a joke... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortCakeSlayer Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 I'm glad you are exactly the way you are <3 You wouldn't believe how many times I've been accused of being "really" male. I'm still chewing on the implications of it. Back in fundie-land I got told on more than a few occasions that it was too bad I was female and couldn't be a wandering evangelist. Fuck 'em if they can't take a joke... HAHAHA I've gotten this one, too. "You talk like a dude." "...because I just proposed a logical argument?" 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sarahinprogress Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 Yowza. I really dont get how leaders in this denomination think SCARE TACTICS are the way to win us back. When i went before the elders for my "discipline" they basically spent the whole time telling me that god is going to do terrible things to me to bring me back to him (actually they said he would LET terrible things HAPPEN, but we both know THAT'S bullshit in their own doctrines and theologies). And i just sat there trying not to laugh for the most part. ugh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akheia Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 That whole discipline thing sounds weirdly lurid to me. The vibes I'm getting from the description are not wholesome at all. Those angry old white farts sound like they have some serious damn issues. I don't think I'd have succeeded in my attempt not to break into giggles or let those self-appointed judges enjoy the full range and depth of my sailor-daddy upbringing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
electech98 Posted October 16, 2012 Author Share Posted October 16, 2012 When men are given the opportunity to authoritatively "lead" other willing humans, it is usually done with gusto and fervor, as opposed to hesitantly and humbly. This can lead to all sorts of problems like power-grabs, unjust discipline for breaking party ranks, vengeful threats, among other things. If you have to threaten someone with real or imaginary harm because they CHANGED THEIR MIND on an issue, something is seriously wrong with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RintrahRoars Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 Yowza. I really dont get how leaders in this denomination think SCARE TACTICS are the way to win us back. When i went before the elders for my "discipline" they basically spent the whole time telling me that god is going to do terrible things to me to bring me back to him (actually they said he would LET terrible things HAPPEN, but we both know THAT'S bullshit in their own doctrines and theologies). And i just sat there trying not to laugh for the most part. ugh I can only assume that it really has more to do with how they themselves deal with dissent (like avoiding feelings like guilt or impotence) rather than a genuine attempt to win you back. People leaving the faith does a lot of damage to the religious ego and they need means of coping, and this is being done by projecting evil onto you (if he/she is warned this much and they STILL won't listen, then it's not our fault... there's nothing more we can do). It's pretty sad that they are unable to even prioritize your spiritual well being over their own pride. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liesbet Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 I'm jumping on this band wagon a bit late...... only recently de-converted. My two cents then . Your father-in-law's letter was almost to the T what I got after expressing doubts about their doctrine. Long before I found myself not believing in the bible at all. By just reading in depth the doctrines they follow, is enough to put doubts in your mind. Just before my deconversion, I started to follow the Justin Peter's Ministries and in short, they take the bible as the only authority. No more hearing God's voice or additional prophesies. And that led me to investigate the bible. If I am to accept the bible as my final standard, then I must know that the bible is the truth...... And we know the rest.... I normally ask people if they are interested in my story, only then will I give them my papers and more papers that I've read. I'll email them reputable websites and then we can discuss...... And so far, no-one asked me for it...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akheia Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 Ha! I bet not! You go girl! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waitingongod Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 Yowza. I really dont get how leaders in this denomination think SCARE TACTICS are the way to win us back. When i went before the elders for my "discipline" they basically spent the whole time telling me that god is going to do terrible things to me to bring me back to him (actually they said he would LET terrible things HAPPEN, but we both know THAT'S bullshit in their own doctrines and theologies). And i just sat there trying not to laugh for the most part. ugh So what happens when these bad things don't happen to you? Is there a certain time frame they should happen? For example, if things are okay for the next 5 years, can you go back and have them re-evaluate the conclusion that bad things are going to happen? Or is it similar to things happening in "this generation"? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thought2Much Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 So what happens when these bad things don't happen to you? Is there a certain time frame they should happen? For example, if things are okay for the next 5 years, can you go back and have them re-evaluate the conclusion that bad things are going to happen? Or is it similar to things happening in "this generation"? Nope, even if the bad things happen twenty years from now, that's God "calling you back to him." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Positivist Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 Nope, even if the bad things happen twenty years from now, that's God "calling you back to him." And the more abuse love he dishes out, the more I am purified. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thought2Much Posted November 10, 2012 Share Posted November 10, 2012 Well, of course. That goes without saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akheia Posted November 10, 2012 Share Posted November 10, 2012 Remember, if he hits you, it's only because you provoked him. He wouldn't hit you if you didn't open your whore mouth so much, if you cooked his roast right, if you folded his shirts right. If you were a better wife, he wouldn't need to correct you like he does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Joshpantera Posted November 11, 2012 Moderator Share Posted November 11, 2012 This is all too familiar. A friend of mine was mixed up in a heated debate with his southern Baptist preacher father-in-law which did end in a divorce with the daughter. I tried coaching my friend along the way but it was a lost cause doomed to failure. In this case the father-in-law actually came out and stated that "God put me on this earth to judge you!" That was really the last straw. How absolutely pompous, and quite frankly blasphemous for the preacher to say. I told him that at some point the truth would rear it's ugly head. And my friend wasn't even atheist going into it, he was simply questioning. The responses of the preacher - which grew in hostility with time - are what essentially pushed him over the edge into disbelief. My own father-in-law is a pious SDA who would like to see us all in church every Saturday. But I got out of it pretty easily earlier on. The church had ex-communicated my grandfather and then kicked him out of the church that he built with his own hands and donated along with land over to the SDA Florida conference. They of course kept the church and land. And the man who was responsible wound up getting caught down the road in scandalous financial misconduct. All I said is that my family has been fraudulently dealt with by the conference and the day that they hand over our land is the day you'll see me at church, a day that will obviously never come. So the issue was dropped and no one even tries to go there with me. I didn't even have to address atheism, pantheist philosophy, or anything more indepth the surface level financial misconduct... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cbelle Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 Oh my God! Your father-in-law sounds exactly like my mother! There is certainly some kind of personality disorder/behavior disorder going on with your FIL that would make him swing between cursing you and wishing the best for you. I lived with irrational behavior like this for years from my mom. In fact, I am surprised I have not received such emails from my mother on this subject. I think she considers me too far gone. That being said, my mom may be too caught up with my sister who is dating a 50-year-old unbelieving married man (and this is my uber-fundamentalist sister)!!! By the way... how goes the situation? I am curious. I read the entire thread. It made me feel not quite so alone when it comes to fundamentalist bipolar family members. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
electech98 Posted December 6, 2012 Author Share Posted December 6, 2012 Hi Cierra, Thanks for replying to the thread. Sorry it took me so long to see it...I have been in Virginia until yesterday for my wife's brother's wedding. This was the first time I saw my wife's father since I became a non-believer. Nothing was said, everyone kept their cool, and all was well. But I know that there were mumblings in their hotel room when I wasn't around about how the father-in-law was doing his to "behave" and not lash out at me. This came from one of my good friends who is dating my sister-in-law, who was staying in the same hotel room as the in-laws. My good friend is sympathetic to where I am and is a questioner himself (though not openly) so he kept me apprised of the general mood. Sigh. You are definitely not alone. I have not responded to any of his emails or books that he has sent me. But I'm thinking that if he DOES send another email, especially after our time in Virginia and seeing me in person again, I will respond that he keeps crossing the boundary I placed and that the boundary is still in effect. My father-in-law just has the typical male righteous head-of-household ego that is very much reinforced by virtue of the fact that he is a preacher for a fundamentalist Christian denomination, and he thinks his head-of-household status still applies to his grown children who are married and on their own...therefore, he most likely still will try to take a prominent place in the life of my kids as being a "spiritual" authority or whatever. Who knows what he communicates to my wife? I have no idea. But each day will be met with its own challenges and responses to those challenges, and I am trying to learn how to stand up for myself in the marriage when it comes to our kids and raising them. My wife and I have never communicated very well with each other, and this situation makes it worse, but we have to take it one day at a time. My biggest fear is how much I could potentially lose if it comes to a divorce, especially with the kids. I love my girls and my little boy so much more than anything in the world. It just sucks that they can't witness a married couple who can truly listen to each other or talk about hard issues without the conversation turning all emotional and fearful (on the part of my wife) because someone so close to her is not in agreement with her now on what is perhaps the most important thing in her life: her faith. So, it's hard to know what to think sometimes. For emotional health, how long should one wait to see how things turn out? Is it better to stay "in it" for the kids? You know, those sorts of things always cross my mind. So what about you? Do you have an extimony on here that could tell us more how you came to the place you are at? It is always good to hear from those who are going through the same crap. Hope to hear back from you soon, Jeremy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDPApostate Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 Hi Cierra, Thanks for replying to the thread. Sorry it took me so long to see it...I have been in Virginia until yesterday for my wife's brother's wedding. This was the first time I saw my wife's father since I became a non-believer. Nothing was said, everyone kept their cool, and all was well. But I know that there were mumblings in their hotel room when I wasn't around about how the father-in-law was doing his to "behave" and not lash out at me. This came from one of my good friends who is dating my sister-in-law, who was staying in the same hotel room as the in-laws. My good friend is sympathetic to where I am and is a questioner himself (though not openly) so he kept me apprised of the general mood. Sigh. You are definitely not alone. I have not responded to any of his emails or books that he has sent me. But I'm thinking that if he DOES send another email, especially after our time in Virginia and seeing me in person again, I will respond that he keeps crossing the boundary I placed and that the boundary is still in effect. My father-in-law just has the typical male righteous head-of-household ego that is very much reinforced by virtue of the fact that he is a preacher for a fundamentalist Christian denomination, and he thinks his head-of-household status still applies to his grown children who are married and on their own...therefore, he most likely still will try to take a prominent place in the life of my kids as being a "spiritual" authority or whatever. Who knows what he communicates to my wife? I have no idea. But each day will be met with its own challenges and responses to those challenges, and I am trying to learn how to stand up for myself in the marriage when it comes to our kids and raising them. My wife and I have never communicated very well with each other, and this situation makes it worse, but we have to take it one day at a time. My biggest fear is how much I could potentially lose if it comes to a divorce, especially with the kids. I love my girls and my little boy so much more than anything in the world. It just sucks that they can't witness a married couple who can truly listen to each other or talk about hard issues without the conversation turning all emotional and fearful (on the part of my wife) because someone so close to her is not in agreement with her now on what is perhaps the most important thing in her life: her faith. So, it's hard to know what to think sometimes. For emotional health, how long should one wait to see how things turn out? Is it better to stay "in it" for the kids? You know, those sorts of things always cross my mind. So what about you? Do you have an extimony on here that could tell us more how you came to the place you are at? It is always good to hear from those who are going through the same crap. Hope to hear back from you soon, Jeremy Wow.... Are situations are so similar its almost scary. Two girls, a younger boy, Pastor FIL's that think they need to be the spiritual leader because we are not, and probably more! The only difference I see right now is that you are a done the road further from your coming out than I am. Keep posting, it is an encouragement to me to see other people who are trying to make things work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
electech98 Posted December 6, 2012 Author Share Posted December 6, 2012 BPD, that's funny...there was a rash of new Ex-C forum members coming on board at once earlier this year when I joined, with many similar backgrounds...married to a believer, kids in the mix, relatives or friends who are church leaders, etc. It is good to know how many of us are out there. Without the internet, I might have thought I was the only person around these parts who no longer believed in any god. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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