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Goodbye Jesus

An Email From The Father-In-Law


electech98

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 I continue to pray for you and wonder where you're really at in terms of your presuppositions these days.  So if you'd be willing to define those for me I'd be interested.

 

 

This is the line in his email that pissed me off the most. He's clearly baiting you. "Presupposition" is particularly self-righteous, and it's obvious he's getting off on preaching to you, the jerk.

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Hey electech,

 

I read the whole thread a month ago, and I think you've done a great job.  If you do decide to write him back, I think your email on the previous page will be just fine.  But honestly, I'm with Pantophobia here.  You clearly set your boundaries and I don't think that any email you send back would make him realize he is in the wrong.

 

For him it's not about boundaries.  He truly and completely believes that if he does not reach out and "save" you that you will spend an eternity in hell.  To many believers "adding another jewel to their crown" worth far more than overstepping their boundaries "in this life".  As hard as it is to ignore the religious emails I would advise you to do so, because I think the only way he'll get the point is if you reply to non-religious (if you want to), and delete the religious ones.

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  I assume your goal is the same that mine would be if I were in your shoes:: To get the bastard off your back. Therefore, tell him that you hear and understand him and you have prayed and prayed, Your praying has resulted in your making covenant with god that you will continue to pray to him until you get his answer. And that you will not give up until you receive that answer. Further, that this is such an important thing that you will not accept an answer from any fallible human, but only from god. That is because you want the answer from the only one in whom you have 100% confidence. The bible says that if we ask god for anything in christ's name it will be granted us. That is precisely what you are going to do.  

 

All's fair in love and war. In this matter, both love and war are involved. What's he gonna do, claim your lying to him? What righteous 

indifference you will then be able to demonstrate. Even if it doesn't work, you can have fun with it.  bill

 

 

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXxx

 

My last post was intended to be tongue in cheek, but I should have made that clearer. But it would be kind of fun with maybe a carefully selected arrogant Xtian. But you're right. The father-in-law in this situation would not work. bill

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I still very much appreciate everyone's replies. I have thought about when to bring up the whole "stepping over the boundaries" thing with him, and have wondered if it might be something to keep in my back pocket until an in-person confrontation might ever take place. There will be times in the future, I'm sure, that we will see each other in person, and I have the feeling that it is not above him to try to pull me aside to either rebuke me or ask me a bunch of questions in relation to my deconversion. At that time I would definitely stop him right then and there to tell him he has continually crossed over the clear line I marked, and that his line of questioning or rebuking will stop.

 

But it may not be the worst idea to remind him of the boundary now before it may get to an in-person confrontation. At this point, he may have honestly overlooked or forgotten I called "off-limits" to anything between us having to do with faith and religion.

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 I continue to pray for you and wonder where you're really at in terms of your presuppositions these days.  So if you'd be willing to define those for me I'd be interested.

 

 

 

This is the line in his email that pissed me off the most. He's clearly baiting you. "Presupposition" is particularly self-righteous, and it's obvious he's getting off on preaching to you, the jerk.

The whole presupposition thing is an amateur attempt at excusing belief in a way that they don't have to try to prove what they are asserting. He is a Van Tilian presuppositionalist as a Reformed Christian / Calvinist, which means he presupposes the Bible is the Word of God and that the Word of God is true. They then look at all matters of life and faith through that presupposition, but the problem is that they haven't even established those very things they assume. They are coming from a starting point that has already taken many many assumptions to get to - there is a God, there is only one God, that God is the God described in the Bible, the Bible is God's divine revelation to man, God is perfect, God's Word is perfect, so therefore the Bible is infallible and inerrant.

 

In the end, it's a way to assert supposed theological superiority over other religions or non-religion without the requirement for a proper logical basis for their beliefs. And to think, I was once a part of that system. :(

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 I continue to pray for you and wonder where you're really at in terms of your presuppositions these days.  So if you'd be willing to define those for me I'd be interested.

 

 

This is the line in his email that pissed me off the most. He's clearly baiting you. "Presupposition" is particularly self-righteous, and it's obvious he's getting off on preaching to you, the jerk.

The whole presupposition thing is an amateur attempt at excusing belief in a way that they don't have to try to prove what they are asserting. He is a Van Tilian presuppositionalist as a Reformed Christian / Calvinist, which means he presupposes the Bible is the Word of God and that the Word of God is true. They then look at all matters of life and faith through that presupposition, but the problem is that they haven't even established those very things they assume. They are coming from a starting point that has already taken many many assumptions to get to - there is a God, there is only one God, that God is the God described in the Bible, the Bible is God's divine revelation to man, God is perfect, God's Word is perfect, so therefore the Bible is infallible and inerrant.

 

In the end, it's a way to assert supposed theological superiority over other religions or non-religion without the requirement for a proper logical basis for their beliefs. And to think, I was once a part of that system. sad.png

 

But...but...but how do you account for logic? Induction? Morality? You can't have true knowledge, silly unbeliever. Therefore, God of the 66 books of the Protestant Bible. QED.

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LOL :D

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But it may not be the worst idea to remind him of the boundary now before it may get to an in-person confrontation. At this point, he may have honestly overlooked or forgotten I called "off-limits" to anything between us having to do with faith and religion. 

 

Call me a cynic, but I think he knows exactly what you've called "off limits." After all, you were part of that mind set, as you said. There is no boundary when it comes to bringing someone back to Jeebus! Your FIL knows damned well what you've said and hasn't forgotten anything. And I'd also bet you a shiny silver dollar he would love nothing more than an in-person confrontation about this, too, so he can spout his rhetoric and make you look like the poor, miserable, lost soul you are. And then he can get "[his] daughter and grandchildren" to see that you have lost your way irrevocably and they need to come home to his righteous household. 

 

I really wouldn't trust your FIL as far as I could throw him. And it's not even because I think he's twisted or evil or anything, but he really thinks he's doing the right thing and saving people from hellfire and damnation. 

 

Sorry for getting all preachy myself, electech, but I just loathe that religious men like this can do whatever they want and think they are above reproach. 

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 I continue to pray for you and wonder where you're really at in terms of your presuppositions these days.  So if you'd be willing to define those for me I'd be interested.

 

 

This is the line in his email that pissed me off the most. He's clearly baiting you. "Presupposition" is particularly self-righteous, and it's obvious he's getting off on preaching to you, the jerk.

The whole presupposition thing is an amateur attempt at excusing belief in a way that they don't have to try to prove what they are asserting. He is a Van Tilian presuppositionalist as a Reformed Christian / Calvinist, which means he presupposes the Bible is the Word of God and that the Word of God is true. They then look at all matters of life and faith through that presupposition, but the problem is that they haven't even established those very things they assume. They are coming from a starting point that has already taken many many assumptions to get to - there is a God, there is only one God, that God is the God described in the Bible, the Bible is God's divine revelation to man, God is perfect, God's Word is perfect, so therefore the Bible is infallible and inerrant.

 

In the end, it's a way to assert supposed theological superiority over other religions or non-religion without the requirement for a proper logical basis for their beliefs. And to think, I was once a part of that system. sad.png

 

But...but...but how do you account for logic? Induction? Morality? You can't have true knowledge, silly unbeliever. Therefore, God of the 66 books of the Protestant Bible. QED.

 

FEAR of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge and you don't have the Lord.  Because real knowledge doesn't take any work.  You just have to let a book do your thinking for you and then infinite wisdom is at your disposal as easy as magic er, I mean it's easy as a miracle!

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 I continue to pray for you and wonder where you're really at in terms of your presuppositions these days.  So if you'd be willing to define those for me I'd be interested.

 

 

This is the line in his email that pissed me off the most. He's clearly baiting you. "Presupposition" is particularly self-righteous, and it's obvious he's getting off on preaching to you, the jerk.

The whole presupposition thing is an amateur attempt at excusing belief in a way that they don't have to try to prove what they are asserting. He is a Van Tilian presuppositionalist as a Reformed Christian / Calvinist, which means he presupposes the Bible is the Word of God and that the Word of God is true. They then look at all matters of life and faith through that presupposition, but the problem is that they haven't even established those very things they assume. They are coming from a starting point that has already taken many many assumptions to get to - there is a God, there is only one God, that God is the God described in the Bible, the Bible is God's divine revelation to man, God is perfect, God's Word is perfect, so therefore the Bible is infallible and inerrant.

 

In the end, it's a way to assert supposed theological superiority over other religions or non-religion without the requirement for a proper logical basis for their beliefs. And to think, I was once a part of that system. sad.png

 

But...but...but how do you account for logic? Induction? Morality? You can't have true knowledge, silly unbeliever. Therefore, God of the 66 books of the Protestant Bible. QED.

 

FEAR of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge and you don't have the Lord.  Because real knowledge doesn't take any work.  You just have to let a book do your thinking for you and then infinite wisdom is at your disposal as easy as magic er, I mean it's easy as a miracle!

 

Amen, brother. Now you're thinking God's thoughts after Him!

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A boundary that you don't enforce is no boundary at all.

 

I still very much appreciate everyone's replies. I have thought about when to bring up the whole "stepping over the boundaries" thing with him, and have wondered if it might be something to keep in my back pocket until an in-person confrontation might ever take place. There will be times in the future, I'm sure, that we will see each other in person, and I have the feeling that it is not above him to try to pull me aside to either rebuke me or ask me a bunch of questions in relation to my deconversion. At that time I would definitely stop him right then and there to tell him he has continually crossed over the clear line I marked, and that his line of questioning or rebuking will stop.

But it may not be the worst idea to remind him of the boundary now before it may get to an in-person confrontation. At this point, he may have honestly overlooked or forgotten I called "off-limits" to anything between us having to do with faith and religion.

 

A boundary you don't enforce is no boundary at all. Speak up if you even slightly feel the line has been crossed. Otherwise he might just start to think it is always OK to push the boundaries, as if he's looking for an opportunity to catch you when your "defenses are down."

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A boundary that you don't enforce is no boundary at all.

 

 

I still very much appreciate everyone's replies. I have thought about when to bring up the whole "stepping over the boundaries" thing with him, and have wondered if it might be something to keep in my back pocket until an in-person confrontation might ever take place. There will be times in the future, I'm sure, that we will see each other in person, and I have the feeling that it is not above him to try to pull me aside to either rebuke me or ask me a bunch of questions in relation to my deconversion. At that time I would definitely stop him right then and there to tell him he has continually crossed over the clear line I marked, and that his line of questioning or rebuking will stop.

But it may not be the worst idea to remind him of the boundary now before it may get to an in-person confrontation. At this point, he may have honestly overlooked or forgotten I called "off-limits" to anything between us having to do with faith and religion.

 

A boundary you don't enforce is no boundary at all. Speak up if you even slightly feel the line has been crossed. Otherwise he might just start to think it is always OK to push the boundaries, as if he's looking for an opportunity to catch you when your "defenses are down."

That's what my feeling has been. Honestly, he doesn't just get to push and push and push until I finally give in. I'm more confident now of sending that reply back to him.

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Debating people like this is useless...he is completely brainwashed, indocrinated whatever.   Wendybanghead.gif ..I would just ask him to read the book,

 

"Jesus, Interrupted" with an open mind (good luck with that)...

 

then tell him that the idea God cannot love someone unless they love him is ridiculous and ask him if he would stop loving your wife if she stopped loving him...his opinions/beliefs are simply not your responsibility nor are yours his...People worry too much about what others think of their beliefs IMHO

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Well.

 

Probably just opened a whole can of worms here. 

 

I sent the email to him today after he emailed me a link in regards to a Christian going to an "atheist" church. That was it. I had to send the email I created on the previous page of this thread.

 

He wrote back. The arrogant prick.

 

 

Well Jeremy, I'm thinking that for you to prohibit me from speaking to you about the true faith you must really have to picture me as a cold-hearted, totally uncaring, not concerned for your soul kind of guy.
Yet you know me as a pastor whose very reason for being one is to proclaim Jesus Christ for the very sake of the hearers' souls. you are essentially asking me to stop being what I am and to stop caring for your soul.  So you can refuse to heed what you so desperately need to hear, but I will not just limit what I say to you to small talk that will do nothing to save your soul.  So I will keep praying for you and <wife>, that she might indeed sanctify you and I will keep sending you pertinent stuff, knowing that  God, in His almighty power might determine to change your will to read it.   I must obey God and not man, and my calling is to proclaim Him who is the truth and the way and the life.  
In Him,
Dad

 

I will take a day to think about my response to him, but it's basically going to be to the tune of "do not contact me at all then, all emails will be going to the trash, all books will be returned or thrown in the trash."

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Well.

 

Probably just opened a whole can of worms here. 

 

I sent the email to him today after he emailed me a link in regards to a Christian going to an "atheist" church. That was it. I had to send the email I created on the previous page of this thread.

 

He wrote back. The arrogant prick.

 

 

Well Jeremy, I'm thinking that for you to prohibit me from speaking to you about the true faith you must really have to picture me as a cold-hearted, totally uncaring, not concerned for your soul kind of guy.
Yet you know me as a pastor whose very reason for being one is to proclaim Jesus Christ for the very sake of the hearers' souls. you are essentially asking me to stop being what I am and to stop caring for your soul.  So you can refuse to heed what you so desperately need to hear, but I will not just limit what I say to you to small talk that will do nothing to save your soul.  So I will keep praying for you and <wife>, that she might indeed sanctify you and I will keep sending you pertinent stuff, knowing that  God, in His almighty power might determine to change your will to read it.   I must obey God and not man, and my calling is to proclaim Him who is the truth and the way and the life.  
In Him,
Dad

 

I will take a day to think about my response to him, but it's basically going to be to the tune of "do not contact me at all then, all emails will be going to the trash, all books will be returned or thrown in the trash."

 

He thinks you are bluffing and called you. The thing I find most disturbing is his shot at you that implies that you tried to force him to obey you.  That is so wrong.  You require his respect in order to have a relationship with him.  He won't give you that respect.  It's not about obeying.  It's about respect and shame on him for trying to reframe it.

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Sucks for him because it wasn't any bluff. I will get legal if I have to. I'm not going to kowtow to harassment just because he's my wife's dad.

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Sucks for him because it wasn't any bluff. I will get legal if I have to. I'm not going to kowtow to harassment just because he's my wife's dad.

 

Because he thinks you should. It's obvious. He's shown he sees you as "[his] daughter's husband" and a potential soul for him to save, nothing else. What an arrogant asshole! "How dare you stop me from preachifying to you and suggesting that anyone would have a problem with it"? Filter those emails to the trash, return anything he sends you without opening it, and make sure your wife knows that you aren't going to put her in the middle of this. Nothing good can come from remaining engaged with him.

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you are essentially asking me to stop being what I am

 

Oh, the irony! He accuses you of trying to get him to be something other than what he is when all the time he clearly is trying to get you to be something other than what you are. I'd call him out on this hypocrisy, and I'd also point out that you're not trying to get him to change his status, but rather to simply respect you and not bombard you with religion.

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Sorry you're still having to go through all that crap.  His last arrogant email makes it time to block the asshole's emails (imo).  Anything regarding family issues/emergencies, etc., he'll contact his daughter anyhow, so you really don't need to hear from him at all anymore.  Let him pray for you all he wants -- you don't need to hear the gory details. Good luck!  

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Gaaahhhh!   This guy has pulled every passive-aggressive, manipulative trick in the book on you. He has no respect for you, or your boundaries. Friggin' control freak.

 

Crap!  He can 'be' whoever he wants to but that doesn't give him license to infringe on your rights.

 

Okay.. I'm going to share what I have learned about narcissists (which this guy is) the only way to deal with them is NC (no contact) ANYTHING you respond with is feeding them. Doesn't matter if it's positive, or negative. You have to remove yourself from the game board. You owe him nothing.

 

 

(Doesn't the bible say that when people get married they leave their family and cleave unto their spouses? It's YOUR family, not his anymore. Time to take control.)

 

This is the only message I would send. "You have repeatedly violated my boundaries, as I stated before I will be trashing any further religious content without reading." No explanation is necessary.

 

You don't need to respond to his baloney - that's just a hook to get you back in the conversation - just restate your boundaries ad nauseum. Use the same words... over and over. (like talking to a 3 year old—simple repetition) It's his responsibility to understand and respect them.

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Let him know you can't stop him from caring. He can care all he wants. As long as it does not cross the boundary you have asked him to respect. If that happens you will take it as a sign of disrespect and you may need to cut back communicating then. So let him pray for you, but do not allow him to cross your boundaries.

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Let him know you can't stop him from caring. He can care all he wants. As long as it does not cross the boundary you have asked him to respect. If that happens you will take it as a sign of disrespect and you may need to cut back communicating then. So let him pray for you, but do not allow him to cross your boundaries.

Damn right!  He can pray TO HIMSELF for the salvation of your soul without even bringing it to your attention.

 

Unfortunately, this guy seems to have 'caring' and 'control' mixed up in his brain.  He just can't seem to stop caring for controlling you.

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Pretty good proof supporting the idea that Christianity creates judgmental a-holes.

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I'm thinking I will have to let my wife know finally what is going on here. I have not shown her any of the emails from him since the ones he cc'd her on in May 2012. But she should know that it might be getting more serious about my blocking communication from him, since it might affect her in so e way too.

 

I think it will be interesting to see what her take on all this is.

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Just wanted to say Ravenstar is totally right. The only way to deal with someone like that is to sever. His behavior is so far past unacceptable it's veering into harassment territory. He's flat-out told you that it doesn't matter what you say, because he's decided to keep trampling over you. That's not how adults talk to adults. The only way to deal with someone that completely divorced from civility and humanity is to keep repeating your boundaries and block every attempt to draw you out. He's going to try everything he can think of to drag you back into conversation with him about topics you've declared off-limits, and you need to be aware this is just the opening salvo in the war he's got going on in his depraved little head. Yes, definitely make your wife aware of the basics of what's going on, because I've got no doubt whatsoever that he's going to enlist her aid sometime soon to get to you.

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