An Email From The Father-In-Law

[Thought2Much]

If I were to reply, I agree with what some others have said here: tell him that his letter was condescending and threatening, and that because of this, he has shown that he is not capable of having a mature discussion about the subject, and that the entire subject is now completely off limits. Period. Done.

[Yrth]

Sorry, but I was confounded by the basic fact that your father-in-law even wrote you this kind of letter, as though you are a small child in need of scolding. I would be just as confounded if the letter were written about a non-religious subject. That situation is far removed from anything I've experienced with my in-laws. You may want to think about your relationship with this man, what it is, what you want it to be, and what you might do to make that a reality. Honestly, sounds more like a cult leader than a pastor, but maybe that's just the paternal element of his position... if that even makes a difference.

 

Also, pardon me for asking, but what is your wife doing confiding in her father-pastor about her relationship with you? To me, that's the other massively understated headline of this post - or maybe I've just missed the background at some point. In any event - I'm not that great with extending sympathy / compassion online, I'm not trying to say anything here but 'wow, look at this, this is really awful, I'm so sorry this is happening to you. Let me know how I / we might be able to help.'

 

P.S.: There have been people on this board who have had their lives wrecked by their families when leaving the church, so whatever you decide to do, just be careful. Things can blow up and escalate at warp speed - I guess would just urge you not to unwittingly waive any of your legal rights. All the best.

[Thought2Much]

Oh, and in my reply, I would also mention that his letter lacked anything resembling the love of Christ, and how disappointed you are that he is incapable of showing any of the fruit of the spirit that he claims that Christians should show if they are saved. Hell, tell him you doubt that anyone so judgmental can possibly call themselves a Christian, if you want to take it one level further.

[Exevolt]

I would say discuss it with your wife and take a bit to properly compose your letter with a clear head as a haste written letter may loose you a father-in-law and upset your wife and so on. I would say though it's best you don't lie to him about your doubts as you'd just be postponing it and keeping the headache going. The letter sounded heartfelt but a bit of a guilt trip mixed with evangelicism. He's got to deal with it no matter what that it's your life, your belief, your family and whether or not to raise them how the father in law wants rest with the discussion with the lady of the house.

[Yrth]

Do you tell children that they're being childish? Would they even understand what you're saying? I doubt it. Boundaries are clear, but the rebuttal is inflammatory. So, just don't light fuses to bombs unless you're prepared to weather the explosions.

[Ocean]

Wow, that's an amazing letter. I feel for you. Talk about a rock and a hard place. This man's chilling intimidation, belittling attitude ("Are you doing that, Jeremy?"), and I'm-a-stand-in-for-God pomposity just made my blood boil (reminded me of people I used to know). Of course, you should just ditch him from your life, but you can't because of his connection to your wife and kids. What is even more troubling is that it sounds like your wife is still a full-fledged Christian, and that's a whole other dilemma. LivingLife's recommendation that you move your family away is worth serious consideration, but chances are, that's not an option. In lieu of that, I would say that you need to establish a boundary. First, don't get into any discussion with your father-in-law about your beliefs...and certainly don't feel you owe him any explanation. Fact is, he doesn't matter...his chilling behavior has rendered him meaningless. Further build the boundary by keeping yourself politely aloof...tell him that you read his email, that you know it's sincere, and that you're sure he'll understand that your spiritual journey, from now on, will need to be between you and God (or your conscience or heart or whatever). Don't let this guy keep his foot in the door of your life. Just shut him out when he tries to insert it. If he emails you again, say that you won't be reading that email because, as you told him, your beliefs are now only for your own personal consideration...no one else's. Now, the matter of your wife still being a believer is an entirely different challenge. I haven't read your back story, so maybe this has already come under discussion here. The only thing I would say about that situation is that you need to be honest with yourself about how much you need to "come out" with respect to your new beliefs and how much you need to keep peace in your family. Of course, standing by and watching while your kids are indoctrinated may not be tolerable for you. Truly a rock and a hard place. I wish you the best.

[LivingLife]

Some ideas, use the bible against him

 

For this reason, a son shall leave his parents and cleave to his wife. He sanctioned your marriage and as such loses the rights to dominate his daughter any more (barring real abuse in terms of the law)

 

Headship is Christ, Husband, Wife and kids. Nowhere is there place for a pastor or a FIL to interfere. You are not abusing anyone.

 

The mere fact he is threatening you, you should have recourse to an elders meeting where the matter can be judged fairly.

 

This assumes they follow this doctrine to the tee but my guess is they do not.

 

It is time your SIL found herself new digs (sorry if I confuse you with someone else) and stop letting them rail-road you.

 

TBH, if it were me in this situation, I would take the kids and leave. If your wife still has daddy issues, then let her go back to him.

 

The fact that he cc'd your wife, he undermined your biblical authority.

[Akheia]

I was confused by the guy's authoritarian tone. Why does he think it's okay to treat you like a little boy who's playing hooky from school? Why didn't he even *ask* what your issues were with the religion before launching into a threatening diatribe and demanding you fall back on your knees in obedience to his doctrine? His subtle threats against your familial cohesion were not lost on me at all, and his constant hammering at you with threats of hellfire and earthly problems sounded uncomfortably like abuse.

 

I don't think you are going to be able to have a true dialogue with the old fart. About the only way you can deal with an abusive controller is to set firm boundaries with them; most abusive types respond very well to those once you get it through their thick skulls (long long patterns of abuse are much harder to break past, but very possible, I've done it) and will go seek out greener pastures once they realize you're not going to let yourself be victimized by them. Make sure your wife is aware of the dynamic so you two can present a solid front; if she's not onboard with refusing to be abused, then she will only suffer as her father tries to drive a wedge between you two. Don't even think for a second that he CC'd her for any reason other than to make himself look like the AVENGING HERO to his poor widdle pwincess against her mean ole ogre husband. This was a premeditated move and absolutely done to put her into conflict about who she'll listen to. He's pretty damned sure she'll fold if push comes to shove, or he wouldn't have laid out the conflict the way he has.

 

He's not even remotely interested in hearing you out. He's laid out his terms: He wants your utter surrender. You can't just give him Poland and expect that to satisfy him. He wants to be your daddy, and he wants you to be the obedient, emasculated boy you were once. He's made clear that he will not only be assaulting your sovereignty, but also your marriage, should you decide to continue being recalcitrant. He's laid the groundwork for destroying your marriage. I'd say this is the time to break out the QOTD:

 

[mcdaddy]

"Strength" only recognizes strength. I think LL's suggestion to use bible verses against him is a great idea. Surely he won't go against "God's holy ward" will he? Best do it in an email though, pulling that out in a verbal joust wouldnt be easy.

[Denyoz]

You already had prepared a well thought-out letter. I think it's time to send it, to him anyway. That letter was excellent.

[electech98]

Trust me, I'm definitely going to bring out the bible verses. I'm also probably going to remind him that his views of Scripture are not inspired, infallible, and inerrant, and that is plainly evident with our denomination's cherry-picking verses on election and predestination and justification to come up with their Calvinist views of Christianity. For example, I don't know when the last time was that anyone ever looked at James 2:24 thoughtfully, because that's one of those verses that quite readily contradicts Paul's doctrines of justification by faith alone. Just another tidbit that led to me rejecting the idea that the Bible is infallible, inerrant, or inspired.

 

Also, just to clarify, we do not live in the same state as my wife's parents...they are in Wyoming, and we're in California.

 

First things first, though...I need to talk to my wife and see what she thought of her dad's email. If she is in total agreement with it, then I honestly don't know how to get her to open her eyes to the manipulation and arrogance in that email.

[florduh]

If she is in total agreement with it, then I honestly don't know how to get her to open her eyes to the manipulation and arrogance in that email.

That would also be something you shouldn't tolerate. If she sides with him......hello??? Hopefully she won't, but religion is a bitch. Good luck.

[mcdaddy]

 

First things first, though...I need to talk to my wife and see what she thought of her dad's email. If she is in total agreement with it, then I honestly don't know how to get her to open her eyes to the manipulation and arrogance in that email.

 

Say, "Look at how manipulative and arrogant this is". and "oh, dont forget to use your eyeballs."

[Margee]

electech, May I share my experience of life with you? I hope you won't mind. I have been following your thread , 'I told my wife' and now I read this........I have no advise... just living experience.

 

All my life, I have tried to do the right thing, even when it wasn't the right thing to do in my heart. Basic people pleaser. That's who I have been all my life. The human race has a need to bully and control because of people's beliefs and opinions that they claim are 'right'. I listened to everybody my whole life and tried to do as they 'suggested'. I even had someone 'suggest' that I stay in an abusive marriage and work things out - so I did and it was not fun.

 

I have been bullied by people my whole life. Clients, family, friends, relatives and church. The world is full of manipulators, dictators and con artists that want you to 'think' as they do. I was always the good girl who tried to please everyone. And I also lived in mild depression my whole adult life.

 

Then somehow, somewhere.....the freethinker in me showed up and pulled me out of the quicksand I was sinking in and changed my whole life. I did not share my new 'opinions' with anyone at first. Then I started to open up...more and more....... everyday I got stronger and stronger as I 'voiced' my own opinions very gently to family and friends....

 

I don't say much - I don't go looking for an argument, but if anyone asks me now how I feel about something.. I ask them back, ''Do you want me to lie or do you want me to tell you my truth'? If they say, 'tell me your truth - I do... whether they can handle it or not.

And this would pertain to any other subject - not just religion.

 

My freedom of mind is soooooo important to me at this stage of my life, that I am prepared to even live by myself and survive alone if I have to. I will not allow anyone to 'bully' my mind again..... no one.......

 

I will always continue to try to do the right things in all relationships and be as loving and kind as I can..... but, I will 'speak my truth' to whoever I have to......

 

NO one is allowed to tell me how to 'think' anymore. That is the only freedom I feel I have, living in the controlled world we do. And it feels good.

 

.....just wanted to share that with you today.

 

Best wishes as you fight for your freedom.............

 

Sincerely, Margee

[Smurfette]

*Picks jaw up off the floor*

Along with all the advice above, I would like to remind you that the FIL is protecting his ego. Not his daughter, not his grandchildren but his image. He's probably thinking "How would it look if my son in law (or any family member) lost faith." This isn't about religion, it's about his identification with his thoughts and the mental image he has of himself which he feels is threatened. One of the best ways to respond to egoic accusations and statements, like his letter, is to say "Is that so? So be it." It is a way to shut the topic down while allowing him to not feel controlled yet not having control over you. Just my two cents.

[stryper]

*Picks jaw up off the floor*

Along with all the advice above, I would like to remind you that the FIL is protecting his ego. Not his daughter, not his grandchildren but his image. He's probably thinking "How would it look if my son in law (or any family member) lost faith." This isn't about religion, it's about his identification with his thoughts and the mental image he has of himself which he feels is threatened. One of the best ways to respond to egoic accusations and statements, like his letter, is to say "Is that so? So be it." It is a way to shut the topic down while allowing him to not feel controlled yet not having control over you. Just my two cents.

 

I can see this too. It wasn't the first thing that popped out for me but it is definitely there.

[SusanStoHeli]

I think your wife - you need to approach her carefully - she's still coming to terms with all this, and she'll read the letter differently than we do - and to a degree, rightly so.

 

Look at what FIL was told. You're still a Christian, but having doubts. So he gives the advice he'd give a Christian who wants to stay one - shut your mind, don't read anything that might give you any facts or new information, pull the covers over your head and hide like crazy from whatever is making you doubt. Great advice - for a Christian desperately grasping onto the last shreds of delusion and trying to keep it up. Not such good advice for an agnostic/atheist who knows they're out of Christianity for good.

 

However, if you wish to have some fun, you can agree with some of what he said - for your marriage and your kids, you swore to follow the truth. Now you know the truth is something different, so by his reasoning, you are bound by your oath to follow the truth, not their lies, for your marriage, your wife, and your kids.

you corrupt the marriage metaphor if you do not believe and witness and teach the truth to her. And you vowed at the baptism of your children to bring them up in the nurture of the Lord, the Truth, and it is your responsibility before the Lord to faithfully do so.

In truth, there is no Lord, but it's still your responsibility to teach them the truth.

 

It always amazes me how Christians can't see how damming stuff like this is. Look at what he says it takes to stay in his own religion:

So if indeed you have doubts about what is truth, you are no longer having your thoughts in captivity to the obedience of Christ (2 Cor 10:5). (Holy crap - you have to constrain even your thoughts, don't dare even THINK about if this stuff is real or not!)

 

Are you testing your thoughts and your actions by the standard of God's Word ...because when you do it's easily clear what is and what is not pleasing to God.

Again - you must only think what we approve you to think.

 

But read nothing but Scripture and books that affirm the doctrines of Scripture and once again you will come to know both intellectually and experientially that by Christ all things were created that are in heaven and on earth....all things were created through Him and for HIm and He is before all things and in HIm all things consist. (Col: 1:16-17). (If you brainwash yourself by looking only at Christian literature and NEVER listening to anything that might have a contradictory fact, never think anything out of line, then you'll get your faith back - since Christianity cannot stand up to any logical or reasonable challenge.)

[Peace]

Wow. That is quite a letter.

 

I love that he doesn't know how to use 'then/than' properly but throws in his definition of existentialism and postmodernism.

 

You're in a tough spot since this is the kind of toxic thinking your wife grew up with and not only do you have to address the de-conversion aspect but also the loveless attitude and lack of boundaries your FIL is showing.

 

Or maybe just focus on talking to your wife about boundaries and not about his theology or his attitude. You could go in circles forever refuting his nonsense but it seems reasonable to let your wife know that you're not open to defending yourself against every person who isn't going to agree with your deconversion.

 

I'm pretty strongly of the opinion to never engage the crazy and to always uphold firm boundaries so I'd probably just send a simple "I appreciate that you wanted to help but I'm not open to discussing this issue with you." or something similar.

 

I'd just imagine that the sooner he understands he's not welcome to give advice the better.

 

I'm so sorry you're stuck in this spot.

[SusanStoHeli]

I think the "existentialism", "postmodernism" is more of the typical anti-intellectualism of that type of Christianity - associating anything with a multi-syllabic word is a way of discrediting it - JMO.

[Eugene39]

First things first, though...I need to talk to my wife and see what she thought of her dad's email. If she is in total agreement with it, then I honestly don't know how to get her to open her eyes to the manipulation and arrogance in that email.

 

Absolutely correct. My f-i-l caused a shit load of trouble with us as a couple. It was a circumstance that I ended up having to take him to court. I know no way to sugar coat this. If she's on board with her dad, you're screwed. Hopefully, there's some common ground you can find somewhere. Best wishes.

[electech98]

First things first, though...I need to talk to my wife and see what she thought of her dad's email. If she is in total agreement with it, then I honestly don't know how to get her to open her eyes to the manipulation and arrogance in that email.

 

Absolutely correct. My f-i-l caused a shit load of trouble with us as a couple. It was a circumstance that I ended up having to take him to court. I know no way to sugar coat this. If she's on board with her dad, you're screwed. Hopefully, there's some common ground you can find somewhere. Best wishes.

Wow...how did that court thing turn out? What did you take him to court over?

[TheBluegrassSkeptic]

I think you ought to leave the missus out of this. This is between you and FIL, IF you even want to bother responding. I really think you shouldn't say anythin. If he has the nerve to actually get in your face, THEN and only then would I bother "answering" to him, because that is exactly what you would be doing. You owe him not a single explanation as to why you who you are. He either has to accept it or part ways. Really very simple.

 

If your wife is somehow in on this, I would shame her. I really would. She has no business having people help jump your shit. How would she feel if we all started bombarding her with emails about how her views or wrong, or worse, that she isn't living up to her marriage vows to you since she is obviously sleeping with God on the side.

[electech98]

I think you ought to leave the missus out of this. This is between you and FIL, IF you even want to bother responding. I really think you shouldn't say anythin. If he has the nerve to actually get in your face, THEN and only then would I bother "answering" to him, because that is exactly what you would be doing. You owe him not a single explanation as to why you who you are. He either has to accept it or part ways. Really very simple.

 

If your wife is somehow in on this, I would shame her. I really would. She has no business having people help jump your shit. How would she feel if we all started bombarding her with emails about how her views or wrong, or worse, that she isn't living up to her marriage vows to you since she is obviously sleeping with God on the side.

Whatever she told her father in their conversation last week is what would have made him email me. I need to find out exactly what she told him.

 

EDIT: although, now that I think about it, I think he does know I had read a couple books by John Loftus, etc. due to my conversations with my friend from LA who deconverted, but he never said anything about it then. See http://www.ex-christ...post__p__746420 for that story. That may be why he is urging me to only read the Bible and Christianity-focused material. He may be putting 2 and 2 together.

[Eugene39]

First things first, though...I need to talk to my wife and see what she thought of her dad's email. If she is in total agreement with it, then I honestly don't know how to get her to open her eyes to the manipulation and arrogance in that email.

 

Absolutely correct. My f-i-l caused a shit load of trouble with us as a couple. It was a circumstance that I ended up having to take him to court. I know no way to sugar coat this. If she's on board with her dad, you're screwed. Hopefully, there's some common ground you can find somewhere. Best wishes.

Wow...how did that court thing turn out? What did you take him to court over?

 

Due to infidelity, his marriage ended and he found himself in dire financial straits. He had to sell his property and since my wife had long wanted to get out into the country, we bought it, even though I was a little queasy about it, you know, doing business with family. Then he decided that he wasn't moving out. I was trying to pay mortgages on two properties and was about to run into financial trouble myself, as my wife doesn't work. We eventually had to evict him.

[Peace]

I think you ought to leave the missus out of this. This is between you and FIL, IF you even want to bother responding. I really think you shouldn't say anythin. If he has the nerve to actually get in your face, THEN and only then would I bother "answering" to him, because that is exactly what you would be doing. You owe him not a single explanation as to why you who you are. He either has to accept it or part ways. Really very simple.

 

If your wife is somehow in on this, I would shame her. I really would. She has no business having people help jump your shit. How would she feel if we all started bombarding her with emails about how her views or wrong, or worse, that she isn't living up to her marriage vows to you since she is obviously sleeping with God on the side.

I don't think shaming her is going to help anything. That will only strengthen the adversarial dynamic that is already in the works.

 

I do agree though that if you didn't give her the go ahead to tell other people then she needs to understand why exactly it's not okay to invite people to spam you with xtianese.

 

I do see her side though in that this is a major life upheaval for her and she will want to talk to her friends and family and find support. To forbid her to do so is abusive but you can tell her that you refuse to engage with anyone who takes it upon themselves to convince you of 'the truth'. You have a right to hold to that.

 

I find it interesting that her father cc'd her on the email. Do you have any idea why he would do that?