An Email From The Father-In-Law

[norton65ca]

wow.

part of me wants to just tell you to tell him "Who the f*ck d'you think you are?"

but that's me, not you.

He needs to be put in his place by you. Firmly and wisely.

I think it's time you sent your letter or something similar. Get it over with, it has to happen eventually.

best of luck

[FeelHappy]

Sounds like my family when I first expressed my doubts, my family laugh and say that 'all that knowledge of the bible has gotten you nothing, you don't even know god'.

 

Its kind of a sad thing to blind ourselves like that, to not question and just believe. He didn't even care to find out what scripture you're having trouble with. My initial thought is, what if he's wrong, I mean by taking scripture as inerrant, what if Islam is the correct religion, he'd never find out, although anyone with this curiosity would eventually see themselves out of Christianity anyways.

[LuNa81]

I hope I'm not talking out of turn here but I was wondering something. Did you and your wife talk about her informing him of your doubts before she did it?

 

I'm asking because I know this guy. In fact I know many of these guys, and I read manipulation all over his letter.

 

I started to dissect it because it's just in me to be protective. I was going to go on a big long rant, but I'll try to keep it short. It seems like he's trying to show you your folly and telling you that if you want "his" daughter and "his" grandchild then you better get with the freaking program like you "professed" to do.

 

He said :

I'm sure you're aware that <wife's name> has spoken to me about her concerns regarding your expressed "doubts", really lack of the true faith you have professed

 

 

"Her concerns"? Does this mean they are on the same page? I really hope not because that is a big, big deal. The caddy tone to the whole thing just burns me up. I've dealt with this type of thing a lot and here's my best advice.

 

Reply to him. Thank him for his concern (this serves to puff his ego a bit and lead him off) then tell him "My" (if it was me I'd put that quotations) like "My" wife and I are discussing these issues and if I need to discuss anything with you I'll let you know.Thanks.

 

You're basically saying "mind your business" without being boorish. That can sometimes throw them off. Manipulate the manipulator so to speak.

 

Then RUN to find out if your wife is or is not on the same page as you are. If she's not, but not willing to refrain from setting you up for daddy confrontation then wow dude....that's a big problem. If she is on the same page and you have the freedom of no financial ties or otherwise then you can be a lot more confrontational and straight up tell him to mind his own business.

 

I'm saying this from a place down deep. If this type of interference is not dealt with it has the potential to get so much worse....Once you show weakness they push harder. In turn you have to practically bulldoze them down. We're going through it. It's not fun... I hope this works out for you guys.

[electech98]

I knew she was going to talk to him, and I made sure she knew I did not want my unbelief known quite yet, but she may have told him more than she let on. I am going to talk to her tonight to find out more.

 

They started to suspect something was up lately because when she talks to people that she is close to, it is hard for her to keep a poker face about my unbelief. That is why I agreed that she could talk to her dad about it but with constraints attached. And this is the unfortunate result.

[Vigile]

 

That is your calling as a Christian and especially as you are the spiritual head of your household --my daughter and my grandchildren. You are as Christ to <wife's name>, and you corrupt the marriage metaphor if you do not believe and witness and teach the truth to her. And you vowed at the baptism of your children to bring them up in the nurture of the Lord, the Truth, and it is your responsibility before the Lord to faithfully do so.

 

 

I'd watch out for this. He claiming dominion over your family because you are having doubt. My guess would be with the second bolded part that he will threaten to disown your wife and kids, will consistently tell your wife what an evil person you are, and will probably try to manipulate her into leaving you and taking the kids. Basically, He is still laying claim to his daughter as his and is telling you he will do what he can to keep her in the fold and under control. Because she's just an ignorant woman.

 

At least that is how I see it.

 

Get as far away from him as is possible. And soon.

 

Pretty much. This is positively cultish. Not even an inch left of the way Phelps approaches his family (Highly recommended watching material IMO -- get to the end where he interviews the pastor himself): http://topdocumentar...ily-in-america/

[Vigile]

Oh, and in my reply, I would also mention that his letter lacked anything resembling the love of Christ, and how disappointed you are that he is incapable of showing any of the fruit of the spirit that he claims that Christians should show if they are saved. Hell, tell him you doubt that anyone so judgmental can possibly call themselves a Christian, if you want to take it one level further.

 

While true, it will likely just kick off a round of tit for tat and his interpretation of the bible, which can always be molded to fit one's position. I agree with Florduh and others who say he should just respond by setting boundaries and leave it at that. Otherwise, he will just end up playing in his FiL's court, which could spiral into big problems with his marriage as sides are taken and as the father attempts to assert himself as the new spiritual leader of the family given the OP has bowed out.

[mcdaddy]

Man.........this shit is messed up.

 

When will asshats like this realize their kids are grown up and can make decisions for themselves?

 

The hell doctrine is the most morally bankrupt mind fucking thing I can think of. Makes people want to ruin others' lives to save them from something that there is an equal amount of proof for as IPUs and FSMs.

[Akheia]

I'm starting to realize just how bad it is to have a family member be one's pastor. There's way too much of a conflict of interest even if everybody's on board with the religion. When someone isn't on board, the temptation to start disobeying firm Biblical principles must get overpowering. Look at this old goat--all it takes is thinking of his little princess being with an apostate and he's already forgotten that once a woman is married she is the property of her benevolent-dictator husband and no longer his concern.

 

Just typing that made me think about showering.

[mcdaddy]

Dont forget to wash the undercarriage!

[freeasabird]

There's a lot in this situation that you'll just have to decide how you want to handle it, based on how 'out' you want to be, and how close you are to your wife. But there are two things I would definitely do no matter what. First, I would let him know in no uncertain terms that what decisions you make for your children are between your wife and you and do not involve him. Second, when you speak to your wife about his letter I would mention and harp on how manipulative it is and how he doesn't even express any other concern except to get you back into the fold. He doesn't care if you have valid concerns. He doesn't care what you think. He is not here to have a discussion, he is here to give orders. Make sure she sees that and how narrow he is.

 

Edit: Oh, and by the way, this is exactly how my minister of a father in law acts as well. Good thing my wife saw through it all. I wish you the same fortune I had.

[electech98]

Talked last night with the wife. It went pretty much as expected.

 

She is in agreement with him, basically. Pretty much due to what they term "truth", and how I would not be leading my wife or children in that "truth".

 

But I did point out to her that he didn't even inquire into my doubts or issues, and she reluctantly agreed that she didn't notice that at first. But she does not see his letter as being manipulative. She sees it as normal concerns that a parent would have for their children. I see her point of view of it, but I'm trying to get her to see MY point of view equally as well. It may take some time for her to realize that my thoughts and words and ideas and feelings have just as much validity as hers.

 

Then the conversation got derailed and the letter didn't really come up again.

 

I will have another conversation with her tonight and lay out some ground rules for how we go forward with communicating with her parents in all this, which I will also put in my response back to him: 1) my issues with faith and religion are being worked out between her and I only, 2) no one else has a say in our marriage or in how we are raising our kids, and 3) the topic of religion between her parents and I will be off-limits for the purpose of keeping the peace.

[nptphotos]

"I see her point of view of it, but I'm trying to get her to see MY point of view equally as well"

 

I took one of those insufferable Communication for Management seminars and the one thing that stuck in my head was the cliché “The message received IS the message”. Meaning, even if someone did not intend to have their message received as it did, what you, as receiver, see as the message, IS the message.

 

You see the FIL’s message as manipulative, so therefore, that is the message. Even if both the FIL and your wife do not see it as manipulative, it does not matter one whit. What you see in the message is what counts and has great validity.

 

All the best for you.

[Positivist]

She is in agreement with him, basically. Pretty much due to what they term "truth", and how I would not be leading my wife or children in that "truth".

 

...she does not see his letter as being manipulative. She sees it as normal concerns that a parent would have for their children. I see her point of view of it, but I'm trying to get her to see MY point of view equally as well. It may take some time for her to realize that my thoughts and words and ideas and feelings have just as much validity as hers.

 

You're in a tough spot, electech. I was hoping she would be incensed at her dad's horning in on your marriage. The fact that she sees it completely from the inside is quite disheartening. This perspective is fresh enough in my mind that I can actually place myself in her shoes and understand where she is coming from. These people are so encapsulated in their beliefs that nothing can touch them.

 

I think the ground rules and email idea you have are fantastic. Well done.

 

This thread is one example of why I love Ex-C-dot-net. Where else would we turn in the tsunami of lunacy?

[ConureDelSol]

This topic has got me subbing and checking it every few minutes! Wish I could give you some useful info, but I've never been in a situation like you are. Hope the next chat with her goes well!

[LivingLife]

You know, setting ground rules sounds to me like the marriage is over. I dunno, but when one party is manipulating and one has to put a foot down then I have to ask this. If I am wrong, please forgive and ignore. Your story and Roadrunners are so similar.

 

I will share just a tad of a similar thing that happened to me in my vacation in wooistan. My wife was the one that "pressured" me to go to church, get involved, the kids needed a xian foundation and I was no person that even read my bible. Then I did get involved and went batshit crazy, changed churches and then forced her to get baptised by immersion get BA and all the tripe that went along with that. I do remember a visit from her parents and her father simply said he heard something had happened to me. I am guessing she was concerned that I had gone further than she intended and may have discussed this with her parents. It did change me and made me an asshole. She was the one that pointed out the hypocrisy while my head was firmly up my ass and in the end when I swung full pendulum to atheism, she was again perturbed. It took a bit of time to teach her what I had learned and I showed her the BS in the bible. It was not a swift process but I know she is agnostic as she sends me those themed posts from her FB page.

 

The one thing we never had was parents mixing it up with us and as luck had it we never discussed religion. My parents were fundy and that was also an eye opener to the extremes folk can go to not even having a radio in the house. I never went that far PTFSM.

 

A marriage should be based on a whole lot more than beliefs in invisible friends and I guess we were lucky that what brought us together was devoid of religion. It was only when the kids came that she started "making suggestions" my FIL actually asked me when we intended to christen our first born. In my dad's cult, they did not do this but I went along, it was more tradition than taking anything seriously.

 

In short, I think you have to "demand" she meets you halfway. If she is unable to do that, then I am afraid it is merely a matter of time.

 

I really hope I am wrong for your sake.

[SusanStoHeli]

I think the ground rules are good. And I'm sure she's seeing her father's message through the Christian lens - the only one she has - that he is right, there's no way that you can be right, whatever you say is irrelevant because it doesn't come from the Bible.

 

It's not good, not what you want, but at the same time, you can work with that. What you need is mutual respect. You respect that she has different beliefs than you do, she respects that you have different beliefs, as important to you as hers are to her. Your kids should be exposed to both, and you are not a conversion target, not for her, nor for her father. Her father, you need to tell him to back off - he's acting as a pastor to a troubled parishoner, tell him that because he's your FIL, he can't be in the pastor role, while you appreciate good intentions, this is not a subject you care to discuss with him.

[Peace]

 

In short, I think you have to "demand" she meets you halfway. If she is unable to do that, then I am afraid it is merely a matter of time.

 

I really hope I am wrong for your sake.

I really don't think we know enough to lay that kind of gloom and doom on him at this point.

 

Whether their marriage has been good, bad or mediocre this kind of growth and transition can go a hundred different ways.

 

It would not be at all unwise to look into finding a counselor to help you both during this stressful time. She should have the opportunity to learn to see outside of her own situation and appreciate that you are each your own person and deserve to live honestly according to your convictions. Even the xtians I know would agree with that so her thinking isn't soley a product of religion. It might be a product of the particular brand, closemindedness, immaturity or a combination of all the above. A good therapist might be a leto be of use to you both as you navigate these new waters.

 

 

[florduh]

Run. Don't look back. Run now.

[Exevolt]

I agree set up some ground rules so it keeps things in perspective and on the right track.

[stryper]

Work for the best and plan for the worst.

 

Talk with her about your doubts. Maintain respect for her opinion but counter them logically.

 

At the same time, make sure you know your rights as a father in CA. Find out what if any rights the FIL would have or what tricks he might try to pull. Also understand what rites the mother has as well. Know where you stand legally should it come to that.

 

I would also say you might consider engaging in some couples therapy. At the very least you will have a third party in the room that can help keep or open minds on all sides. Take the email and show it to the therapist and then discuss it. I am guessing the therapist will see it very similarly to how you see it.

 

Just some suggestions. Every relationship has a time when a corruption comes in to the relationship. It could be anything. But it always something that is view as a potential ender of the relationship. It doesn't mean it has to go that way. Just that it is more likely to happen then. This seems to be that for yours.

 

Proceed with love and be prepared to for the worst. The situation is very fluid right now.

[florduh]

She is in agreement with him, basically.

Hello?

 

She has chosen, and I hope you recognize that and cut your losses as much as possible.

[electech98]

I've been running in my head through possible ways to put a response to him, so I'm going to put something here to chew on...let me know what you think:

 

"Dear <FIL's name>,

 

Thank you for your concern. I know that you love both of us dearly.

 

<Wife's name> and I are currently working through these issues of faith and religion, and we will continue to do so exclusively with each other. In that regard, my wife and I alone are going to handle our marriage issues and how to raise our children to the best of our ability, with no lack of love and understanding on our part.

 

At this time, we both agree that discussions with you on religion and faith (including issues related to our marriage, the raising of our children, any doubts, etc.) will not be permitted, for the purpose of maintaining mutual peace between us. Please understand that this is for the better.

 

Thank you again for the taking the time to write.

 

With love,

 

Jeremy

[electech98]

She is in agreement with him, basically.

Hello?

 

She has chosen, and I hope you recognize that and cut your losses as much as possible.

I know, but it's more complicated than that. With kids involved, my most important priority would be for their protection first...and hopefully a salvaged and even stronger marriage in the end of all this.

[electech98]

You know, setting ground rules sounds to me like the marriage is over. I dunno, but when one party is manipulating and one has to put a foot down then I have to ask this. If I am wrong, please forgive and ignore. Your story and Roadrunners are so similar.

 

I will share just a tad of a similar thing that happened to me in my vacation in wooistan. My wife was the one that "pressured" me to go to church, get involved, the kids needed a xian foundation and I was no person that even read my bible. Then I did get involved and went batshit crazy, changed churches and then forced her to get baptised by immersion get BA and all the tripe that went along with that. I do remember a visit from her parents and her father simply said he heard something had happened to me. I am guessing she was concerned that I had gone further than she intended and may have discussed this with her parents. It did change me and made me an asshole. She was the one that pointed out the hypocrisy while my head was firmly up my ass and in the end when I swung full pendulum to atheism, she was again perturbed. It took a bit of time to teach her what I had learned and I showed her the BS in the bible. It was not a swift process but I know she is agnostic as she sends me those themed posts from her FB page.

 

The one thing we never had was parents mixing it up with us and as luck had it we never discussed religion. My parents were fundy and that was also an eye opener to the extremes folk can go to not even having a radio in the house. I never went that far PTFSM.

 

A marriage should be based on a whole lot more than beliefs in invisible friends and I guess we were lucky that what brought us together was devoid of religion. It was only when the kids came that she started "making suggestions" my FIL actually asked me when we intended to christen our first born. In my dad's cult, they did not do this but I went along, it was more tradition than taking anything seriously.

 

In short, I think you have to "demand" she meets you halfway. If she is unable to do that, then I am afraid it is merely a matter of time.

 

I really hope I am wrong for your sake.

Thank you for that, especially the "meet you halfway remark". I guess that's really what it comes down to...I have already agreed that she can still take the kids to church, that she is free to pursue her faith as a grown woman, etc...the least she can do is get behind me with setting boundaries (especially for her family) and help reduce the flak coming my way.

[Overcame Faith]

I've been running in my head through possible ways to put a response to him, so I'm going to put something here to chew on...let me know what you think:

 

"Dear <FIL's name>,

 

Thank you for your concern. I know that you love both of us dearly.

 

<Wife's name> and I are currently working through these issues of faith and religion, and we will continue to do so exclusively with each other. In that regard, my wife and I alone are going to handle our marriage issues and how to raise our children to the best of our ability, with no lack of love and understanding on our part.

 

At this time, we both agree that discussions with you on religion and faith (including issues related to our marriage, the raising of our children, any doubts, etc.) will not be permitted, for the purpose of maintaining mutual peace between us. Please understand that this is for the better.

 

Thank you again for the taking the time to write.

 

With love,

 

Jeremy

 

I've been following this thread, though I haven't replied until now. I thought the e-mail from your FIL was harsh, though he claimed it was through Christian love. If that's love, I would want no part of it. Still, I understand that you are in a delicate situation and that you want to keep your family intact, and I don't blame you one bit.

 

My suggestion about sending the above is that you should make sure your wife agrees with everything since you seem to be speaking for her, too. In particular, you write, "At this time, we both agree that discussions with you on religion and faith...will not be permitted...." From what I gleaned, she went to her father about the situation. If she goes to him again and is not in agreement with what you wrote, then it will make you look weak and, from what I gather, your FIL will jump all over a perceived weakness. What I'm suggesting is to make damned sure your wife will stick by what you say. If she won't give you that assurance, then I recommend a rewrite.

 

I hope all works out well.