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Goodbye Jesus

Confused About What I Should Do?


Falloutdude

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Also, I saw a counselor in the past when I was around 15 or 16 for about 2-3 years....I really miss her....I can't go back to her though because for one her facility only takes state patients it seems like, and also she's not taking adults anymore...

 

In that case, please try to find someone else; there are many good counselors out there. It sucks to have to 'start all over again' with a new person, but depression is not something you should have to figure out on your own. I've seen it, I've been there, and I have friends who probably wouldn't be here today if it weren't for therapy. Give it another try.

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That's the thing, the doctor told me that he doesn't want me to put me on anxiety medication because I am so young (I'm 19), and apparently it is addictive/hard to get off and also you can build up an immunity to it if I understand correctly, so you have to take higher and higher doses. Not to mention my medical access is tenuous at best right now. It is ridiculous the amount you have to pay to even see a doctor...

 

And I do drink a fair amount of caffeine, although not really a lot. I have a mocha almost every other day, if not more, to wake me up in the morning for my classes, since I do not sleep that well anymore. I wake up after about 7-10 hours of sleep and still feel tired, granted I don't have a fixed schedule like I probably should....

 

I agree with Suzanne. I think it's terrible how you're beating yourself up, but that's how anxiety rolls. I used to suffer from regular panic/anxiety attacks and PTSD and can tell you that once you get the right treatment, that shit tends to melt away. I really really hope you will take every step possible to find help. Especially if you're feeling suicidal sometimes, YOU NEED TO FIND HELP. Get on the phone and start calling people. Call your school's health center. Contact a suicide hotline and tell them what's going on--they have all kinds of referrals they can make for people even at zero income. In the tiny town I used to live in when I realized I'd finally hit the bottom, there wasn't a suicide hotline so I called a spousal abuse hotline even though I wasn't being abused--and they got me the info I needed. The resources are out there. You will be so happy you did and you'll wonder why it took so long to get help. I know I did!

 

Oh, and lay off the caffeine, soda, and any other self-medicating substances. Your irregular sleep schedule and habitual use of stimulants isn't helping. Live a healthy lifestyle--exercise, getting outdoors, eating right, sleeping enough. You'll notice a marked upswing in your mood and clearer thinking once you're taking good care of yourself. There's a reason Dark Ages monks practiced asceticism, why alternative religions often love them some hallucinogenics, and why modern Christians prey upon the vulnerable--the clouded thinking produced by starvation, substances, and stress brings about paranoia, anxiety, and delusions. Your mind sees all those stress hormones, can't figure out why you're stressed, so thoughtfully makes up its own theories-- which you experience as religious doubts and second-guessing. While you're hunting for help, start your journey by taking care of yourself better. You deserve so much better than this. You sound like such a sweet, thoughtful person and I know you can crawl out of this pit.

 

PS: Not all anxiety medications are habit-forming. The one I was prescribed was an SSRI, which aren't like the ones you're talking about at all. Once you find a doctor/therapist, ask about them.

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I wanted to say one more thing. Weird shit happens and so do coincidences. Let me tell you a story.

 

I once was talking to a friend about going on a cruise. My friend said oh ya! So am I. No details were mentioned as to when or where. Somonths later summer is here and me and my family leave all the way across the country to go on this cruise. Guess who i see boarding the same boat as me. My friend from all the way back home. I tell you this that of all my religious coincidences none compare to how weird this was. Of the many many boats that leave on a daily basis not to mention how many other cruises she cOuld have taken, she was on mine. What are the odds.

 

For what reason did this happen you COULD ask. The answer is no reason, there is no possible higher meaning you can possibly walk away with that situation. Shit happens, sometimes it's weird shit.

 

That was a cool story. I've had some pretty weird coincidences happen to me throughout my life too. Those coincidences are quite powerful. Those kept me as a believer when nothing else could. But as I worked through leaving religion I came to understand that coincidences were still a beautifully strange occurrence that I could still appreciate without believing there might be a supernatural cause.

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The thing is, that even though I can see these things clearly now. I cannot when I am in emotional upheaval....Especially when I get caught in the intellectual black hole that is my attempt at rationalizing potentially irrational/random events; at this point, I am lost to reason, and my emotions seem as if to be rational thoughts/concerns. Even when I am out of it, I can wonder sometimes....that's the issue though. Going back, trying to analyze things and get an answer/something to placate my insecurity, when there may be none.

 

Hi falloutdude,

 

I've read some of your past posts but this one made me wonder something. I don't remember your background but I'm wondering if you have some kind of family support system and if you do, are you feeling like relating to your family requires you to have religious beliefs? If so, what you might be experiencing is a different kind of cognitive dissonance. Most people need to have some one that they feel will support them no matter what. Some people are able to find that with another person or group of people, some do not. Perhaps what you are aching for is some one that you can go to when you need a shoulder to cry on. Some one that you can trust. If that is the case it seems that you are using this forum as one form of that support system and that's good and I hope you can find what you need here. But I can't help but think that might be what you are wanting from a god. Some acceptance of who you are, not as a believer, but just as a human. You are ok just as you are.

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I have come down to the point where I think I might "want" god to be true so I can stop worryin; that I get so anxious and depressed over these things, that I just want that release, but that is the only thing I could think of that would make me "want" it to be true. Also, I just want to know I'm going to be ok, that I'm not going to be going to hell or even worry that I am sinning/need to believe. I can't stand this torture. I keep obsessing and keep accruing coincidences which make me feel like there is something more which must be drawn from them and/or that I must disprove what happened to me.

 

I am having cognitive dissonance I think, but its more like I think there is evidence, however circumstantial, that I cannot ignore. Or maybe I just don't have the energy anymore. I just keep feeling like I have no more to give/that I'm at the end of my rope.

 

I am contemplating calling the suicide hotline, but I think it is too late....I have had another such experience which, for some reason, is affecting me pretty badly.....I've tried just being rational about it, but it doesn't seem to be working. As stupid as it sounds, I was worrying and worrying, in a spiral of having anxious thoughts/ideas about almost everything I thought of, along with the worry that the thing I was thinking of would happen and "prove" god's existence to me. I was watching a show, Workaholics, with my friends and the guy doing an electrical job for one of them was miscalled Brad, before he said his real name was "Brett" (I believe/can't remember quite how my thoughts arose), I thought of my ex-youth pastor who looked kind of like him. I might have misheard Brad as Brett or something, but I don't think so/remember that being the case. Mainly what I think it was was his face/figure, also the idea of pot/partying reminded of how he used to (the main characters are young partiers who smoke a lot of weed and stuff, at least that is what is implied). I didn't even get to say my security phrase, "no premonitions" which I would say whenever such a religious forethought/idea happened. It happened too quickly, so quickly I was not able to fully process all of my thoughts. I know memories are already sketchy enough, especially if you are high....but I remember well enough to worry about my "premonition" of the mind, from an emotional perspective.

 

This probably would not be a problem if I did not feel so much self and philosophical doubt. I feel no more intellectual grounding, and I don't even feel comfortable with learning things I would normally enjoy, because of the strong feeling that I've been wrong about everything....Mostly though, I have the feeling that I have experienced something I cannot refute.

 

I know from a strictly rational/empirical perspective, what happened to me doesn't necessarily mean anything, but I find myself so emotionally distraught by the idea that I would "predict" the name (even though I don't think I was actually trying to/nor thought I was, "predicting" anything).

 

PS I have a new therapist, but I am having issues with her, and with the process in general. She is nice, but is a liberal Christian who, even though she is very loving/compassionate, still is restricted theologically from being able to completely "condone" atheism, or other non-beliefs. At the same time, she accepts homosexuality as not a perversion (I'm bi, and she felt compassionate for how this affects me)

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Guest Valk0010

I have come down to the point where I think I might "want" god to be true so I can stop worrying; that I get so anxious and depressed over these things, that I just want that release. Also, I just want to know I'm going to be ok, that I'm not going to be going to hell or even worry that I am sinning/need to believe. I can't stand this torture. I keep obsessing and keep accruing coincidences which make me feel like there is something more which must be drawn from them and/or that I must disprove what happened to me.

 

I am having cognitive dissonance I think, but its more like I think there is evidence, however circumstantial, that I cannot ignore. Or maybe I just don't have the energy anymore. I just keep feeling like I have no more to give/that I'm at the end of my rope.

Antianxiety medication, it will help you think straight.
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Guest Valk0010

Become a liberal christian. I mean jesus H christ, it doesn't take much to prove the bible is errant. Seriously anything is better then you having complusive fits because you seem to not be able to take it, not being true.

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Valk, I must admit I have never particularly understood our relationship/your exact personality, and feel like I have failed to communicate my emotions, thoughts, and personality through my conversations with you, as well as others on this site. There is so much thought and so many factors that I try to explain, but there comes a point where I just want to be supported despite how annoying it might be. I wasn't saying that I believed her liberal Christianity (actually told her, I could not love a god like that), I was mentioning that because I was concerned that she could not help me, as I was feeling like she had a conflict of interests....I thought that was relevant to the discussion...

 

I wish I could make everyone understood me better, and wish I could upload a video of me talking so I could communicate who I am better....I cry on a daily basis, 2 or 3 times a night, sometimes more, about how I cannot break free from fears. I want freedom, love and peace. Christianity, once you've experienced true happiness and love, is just a cheap counterfeit for real humanity. Christianity does not involve being loved or accepted, not completely, and therefore not truly. This is all only half of who I am. In my life I have friends who I hang out with and have fun with. I have a love of learning, or at least did, until I came to think that all of my learning might be wrong in the face of Christianity...There is just so much I can't say on here, so when you see the portions about worry, please, just please don't judge me. I have so much pain and struggles, but I also have a lot of love and compassion when I am feeling ok....I just wish I was free to share that without fear of Christianity....

 

I come here for support and do not pretend to be easy to deal with, but I do not intend on giving up, as much as I may feel like it. My only other firm support in my life is my mom. That's it. Without her I would have no one to talk to in person, and so when I come here and people only reject me as well, you have no idea how hopeless that makes me feel....I just wish you could feel what I feel, just for a second or so, so you could understand...I just want love and support....from real people, who actually care. I mentioned the counselor's christianity as an obstacle to that. I just am getting tired of never finding the compassion I hoped I would find in others.....My tears are nothing on the keyboard, and neither are my emotions or fears. I try as hard as I can to help others understand, but online it is so hard....and so frustratingly futile sometimes...

 

Let me ask you this, if I wanted to believe in Christianity, why wouldn't I? I have plenty of doubts about atheism and agnostic, so that's not an issue. I could just either ignore or assimilate contemporary science and history to match the bible, if I really wanted to. The whole "science doesn't conflict with the bible" spiel, which I do not really believe, but could probably convince myself of if I wanted it enough based on common psychological bias. I don't want to debate, I just want people to understand that it would make no sense that I wanted Christianity to be true, given how hard I try to debunk my fears which arise regarding it being true. It just hurts....because it seems like people use this idea as a rationalization for disregarding and ignoring me... Then I feel like I have to explain myself, but people just see that as arguing with people who are helping me, when really I just really don't want people to misunderstand me.

 

If you never understand anything else about me, understand this. I do not want to, nor do I think I could, love a god that would not let people be who they are, and just try their best. You know, as an exchristian, that Christianity, even liberal Christianity, does not allow you to love yourself or others, without at least acknowledging you are "flawed". That "love" in christianity has walls and barriers. God being the principle one, since he demands first priority. and a lack of substantial relationships with those around you (eg instead of actually helping, talking about how god can help you through prayer or something). Your entire life is wasted, and your true self denied as sinful. This is why it seems to me sometimes that you are just trying to get me off the site/get me to clam up. I realize this might not be true, and am sorry for any slight against you, but that is how I feel often when people say that kind of thing....If I could believe what I wanted so easily, I wouldn't believe in Christianity at all, and would probably be a Taoist or Buddhist if I wanted a god/"force"....

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Guest Valk0010

I pitched that cause, I thought it might settle your mind down not at as value judgement. And actually liberal theology while I view it, as something analogous to reading the writings of confucious is not the kinds of things that you describe, it can for some. But really all liberal theology is, just christianity dealing with the undeniable facts of say, the problem of evil, or no good historical reason to believe in jesus resurrection, or the errancy of the bible. Its a exercise of sifting thru cowshit to find pearls, one could crudely put it.

 

Though I never read him, a person that is widely touted as being good reading among liberal christians is Paul Tillich. Also, John Shelby Spong comes to mind.

 

As far as how you feel, I can relate to the same kinds of problems just not the extreme of your suitation, so no, I am not out to get you or hurt ya.

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"I am at the point in my life where I believe, through a particular experience, that the Judeo-Christian god might be the real god."

 

Seriously? You actually embrace that conviction? Then what are you doing here? Quit wasting the most important element in your life which is time. Go and worship your invisible Sky Daddy because it's quite obvious that you're void of any critical thinking abilities. Emotional appeals is what you're searching for and there is pleanty of that in theology. However you're never going to discover truth and liberation from superstition and dogmaticism.

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FOD, if you're not comfortable with your therapist, tell her so and ask for a referral to another therapist. She will be happy to give it to you if she cares about your mental health. And how did it go with quitting the self-medication thing and getting more regular sleep, or are you still hurting and neglecting yourself and wondering why you're not feeling better doing that?

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hi, Falloutdude, I've been in something like the position you're in now, though worries about God and Christianity weren't part of it by that time. One thing that helped when I felt that I had no support from anywhere or anyone was to go back just to myself, that I existed, and start from there. I wasn't going to the world's indifference take away the precious existence that was all I had.

 

You sound like a very empathetic and compassionate person. Other people are out there just in your position. What you have to contribute to them will matter to them. They're needy, too.

 

Someone once told me that acting a certain way helped her feel that way - act happy, do the things people do when they're happy, and after a while you start to become what you act. From what I've seen in this person's life, it helps. I know from experience that often one doesn't feel like even acting happy, but a healthy "fuck that!" can be the start of a response.

 

I'm sorry I can't think of anything else that hasn't been said by someone already on here. I think that since Christianity preys on people's fears, and you're in a very vulnerable spot right now, it's understandable that you could think, maybe it's true after all...

 

You haven't mentioned your father recently, if ever - I'm not sure whether you ever have. Since your mother is a great support to you, what about him?

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@ Ahkeia

I only have weed....I even am about to get my medical card to drop a marijuana charge from prosecution when I go to court for it and someone else's alcohol that I was carrying to a party for him.....In other words, I am slowly dying in psychologically anyways....I see no escape from my fears and I use weed to cope with what I can't achieve because of my damn mind....Not matter how smart or knowledgeable I get, I am held back by my stupid answered prayer after.

 

@ ficino

My father is actually why I am freaking out right now....Sort of at least.....He is just another thing I have to tiptoe around and make sure he doesn't figure out that I am vulnerable. I've also clashed with him a few times before about Chrisitian doctrines or at least mocked it or something.

 

I have tried to contact a few people about this, but I think they're busy/don't want to deal with me anyways, so I mind as well say it....hopefully people aren't going to get angry at me for this....

 

Awhile ago, when I was definitely agnostic, I was worrying about some other coincidence of music coming on the radio or some thing, or maybe it was just some story, all of that time kind of blurs together. I had been worrying for days about coincidences of the same kind along with spiritual stories I'd inadvertently been told about....Then finally one day when I was at my wit's end, my dad was picking me up from a friend's house and on the way home we went to get some dinner. Earlier that day I had openly bashed Christianity in front of him, which may have had a hand in what happened later. On the way back I drove (no I was not high, this friend doesn't smoke) and somewhere along the way a song came on with the lyrics "it's an original sin" and I flipped emotionally. I never actually said anything, but inside I was about to burst, so in my emotional desperation I started to pray to have a sign, although at the time I could not articulate what might be good enough to actually be a prayer, then around 7-10 or so minutes later my dad chimed in with a story awhile ago about how one time he prayed and found a picture and "knew" where is was in the closet. At first I wasn't freaking out, however, when I scoffed at the story, already a little flustered, he got a little miffed and said "Was it a coincidence" and that set me off. I started freaking out on the way home and shouting at him about proselytizing and how he wouldn't like it if I did it to him. Really it just really shook me. That night I called my gay/basically atheist uncle and talked until I was crying hysterically and calmed down somewhat...

 

The reason I freaked out was because although he brings up stories all the time, he barely ever, if never, brought that up with me in the car. Also, the word "coincidence" triggered the thought it was an answered prayer because of my previous worrying about coincidence. I don't remember if that was all I was worrying about, but maybe not.

 

Eventually I was able to get past it, although I do not remember how or why. I think of it now because yesterday or the day before I got freaked out by a stupid anxious fear and it made me think of this, since for some reason it "broke the camel's back" of my underlying disbelief, I had no more drive. So, in the low situation the previously ignored, but nagging, fear from the past got full hold of my conscious thought and drug me down into depression through catastrophic feelings of hopelessness against Christianity the more I thought about it....I also asked my dad recently, with my mom, why he brought that up at that time, and he said something about us trying to find something. Even though I don't know what he's talking about, and couldn't get more out of him it showed some train of thought at least.

 

because of this I can't seem to reject Christianity, but I WANT to reject it. I have already renounced the holy spirit when I was a confident atheist, now I do not know. I made a mistake by asking that prayer.....I never even said amen...totally ruined my life without even saying the amen....Everything else I know makes Christianity seem unlikely, but I have enough doubt, and this experience among others, to make me totally insecure about any of it. I wish he would never have said that, I wish I would never have came to that breaking point....but it happened and now I he feel like I am doomed to believing in Christianity. It is so improbable and he didn't bring up that stuff too often. I have listened to John Shelby Spong, and it made me feel better until I realized that his form did not follow the idea of an interventionist god, which would answer a prayer like mine. So all I feel like I am left with is what I know from Christianity.

 

No one understands, but I do not know how not to believe now. I know about the inconsistencies in the bible/errors in the new testament and stuff.....I don't want to live life as a Christian though, there is too much that I wanted to do.....too many friends, opportunities for growth and actual living...I just feel like I lost any chance to not believe with that "answered prayer". I know that what happened does not necessarily amount to evidence for most people, and I can come up with a few rational objections to this being seen as an answered prayer, but nothing that I actually have "faith" in. The best I can come up with is "Freak accident", but that seems like a hollow cop-out. Unless I feel like I can prove a reasonable doubt to this being an answered prayer, I can't imagine being able to let go...Its like I am so afraid of this because it seems too improbable, and that it seems like there is not alternative, that I don't know how to let go without help....I wish I could get more help, but I'm pretty sure that people would either just insult, ignore, or misunderstand me. I see little hope, and can think of little to soothe my mind. I long for death sometimes, knowing at least then I might have peace.

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Hello, Falloutdude, you say that you were already worried about coincidences in song lyrics before you heard the "Original Sin" song (was that Elton John's, "you're my original sin"?). I have no clinical training, but it sounds as though perhaps you have obsessive-compulsive disorder? Chemical imbalance is, I believe, a big factor in that. It seems to me that your brain is playing tricks on you. My father has been diagnosed as paranoid schizophrenic and he has been hugely influenced by what he sees as meaningful coincidences through which god was sending him messages. It ruined his life, basically. There are an infinite number of things that happen, and the human mind is a pattern-creating instrument, so there are countless patterns of coincidence that a given person can notice. To take them as "God is trying to tell me something" already presumes belief, and as you say, there are so many contradictions and other problems with Christianity that there really isn't a basis for that belief. You are left just with the coincidences, which don't show anything except something about the person who sees them as significant. It would be a very piss-poor way for GOD to try to communicate with you to pick something so obscure and open to misunderstanding as the event you describe. What kind of God would that be? Why wouldn't He do something useful and cut the farting around? Athena at least did Odysseus and others the courtesy of appearing to them. The answer is the obvious one that "God" is a figment of the human mind - an entire culture doing to itself what you are doing to yourself, Fdude!

 

It sounds as though there's a strong part of you that is afraid anyway, despite what your reason tells you. Have you come clean with your therapist about the full range of things that are bothering you, including your sometimes longing for death? If you are feeling that way you must seek help by laying all your cards on the table! If you do have OCD or some other disorder, it's a type of bodily malfunction, so there's no shame in meds if they help treat it. Weed is NOT sufficient, since it can cloud your mental faculties and increase your paranoia. Maybe you need to come clean with both parents about what you are struggling with. It doesn't sound as though you've given your father much of a chance to act like a father (sorry to put it this way, since I don't know you and don't know him at all). As you say, you are at a point now where you need help - a person who fell through the ice needs someone to throw a rope out there. But the person with the rope has to be made aware.

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Your anguish is palpable even through a computer screen.

 

When someone's feeling this vulnerable, it's hard for them to objectively assess what's going on. Here are some guesses:

 

* You're grasping at straws because you have some sort of chemical imbalance that makes you see patterns where there aren't any.

* If you weren't feeling so depressed and anxious, you wouldn't have seen this wild coincidence as meaningful. For all you know, this song was on a regular rotation for that station, and your subconscious mind knew it was coming up in the rotation. Or it could have been any other vaguely religious-sounding song that got you all freaked out. Song lyrics are made by secular artists who are probably higher than balls and these songs are made to appeal to the lowest common denominator--which is to say, people with religious leanings. So yes, you got manipulated.

* If it was a divine situation, maybe it wasn't Yahweh doing it. There are tens of thousands of other gods that people believe in. Few of them leave especially personalized calling-cards. Whoever it was, it was a pretty dick move. A loving God would have made it more clear what was going on, and would have given you a more definitive sign. But dick Yahweh, according to your own thought processes, apparently thinks it's hilarious to give you half the map and then giggle like a serial killer over how freaked out you get afterward. I'm not impressed. Hopefully you won't be either.

 

I really think you'd benefit from getting another therapist who you will feel more comfortable with. And I really think you need to have some overseeing person supervising the weed, if you don't have one already. Any substance that alters your mind could be causing your anxiety. You're trying hard to dig yourself out of this pit, but I think it's pretty clear that you're having enough trouble that you'd benefit from having someone at the top of the pit offer a hand.

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I'm just going to say about your doctor not wanting to give you anti-anxiety meds because you're young...BULLCRAP.

 

I have been on 0.5mg of Ativan (as needed) since I was 13. You need a second opinion.

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Dude, I just wanted to give you a big hug and tell you that I think you are such a smart, sensitive, wonderful person. I believe with all my heart that you are going to come through this. I even believe you will have the ability to help others when you get this all straightened around. I have watched you grow up in the last year. Keep posting...you're doing really well getting this stuff all out. I know this stuff isn't easy....don't give up!

 

Hug!

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Guest Valk0010

I'm just going to say about your doctor not wanting to give you anti-anxiety meds because you're young...BULLCRAP.

 

I have been on 0.5mg of Ativan (as needed) since I was 13. You need a second opinion.

I have had take as needed perscriptions for 1 mg and it has done wonders, I am 21, which is not a huge difference between dude and myself I should say.
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