Matthew 7, V. 7-12.....ask, Seek, Knock

[Spectrox]

 

What I am trying to express, poorly mind you, is essentially the Bible says do these things to manifest "God" within a relationship. The key is "what is God". IMO, it's essentially a postive manifestation within a relationship based on an External Morality that is learned learned through fundamentalism but then becomes internalized and put into action. All I am saying is that many here believe in the action(s) but have dismissed Christianity because of the dreaded fundamental part......when in fact, I believe the overall account of the Bible describes this process very well.....and especially these verses.

 

For example, for a long time, we expect God to do for us until we become more mature and become God to do for others. I believe this mirrors the Old and New Testaments.....and by doing so, is affiming.

 

What is God? That's your problem to define and demonstrate the alleged existence of this being.

 

Positive manifestation in a relationship? Most of the Bible is negative IMO. 8 of the 10 commandments are phrased in the negative "Thou Shalt Not"

 

Many here believe in the actions? What actions are you referring to? Maximising the benefit to myself and others whilst minimising the harm to myself and others perhaps? That is a good starting point for morality. Unfortunately much of the Bible is sadly lacking in this department.

 

Fundamentalism = extremist philosophy. These are unbalanced and tend to fall apart.

 

Become God to do for others? Maybe the goodness comes from within us as well as our ignorance and willingness to submit to superstitious claptrap.

[Overcame Faith]

What I am trying to express, poorly mind you, is essentially the Bible says do these things to manifest "God" within a relationship. The key is "what is God". IMO, it's essentially a postive manifestation within a relationship based on an External Morality that is learned learned through fundamentalism but then becomes internalized and put into action. All I am saying is that many here believe in the action(s) but have dismissed Christianity because of the dreaded fundamental part......when in fact, I believe the overall account of the Bible describes this process very well.....and especially these verses.

 

For example, for a long time, we expect God to do for us until we become more mature and become God to do for others. I believe this mirrors the Old and New Testaments.....and by doing so, is affiming.

 

Perhaps you are describing something like what a good parent might do? Something like when the child is little, the parents provide and when the child becomes an adult, the child is equipped (hopefully) to provide for him or herself and is capable of providing for his or her own child (and, maybe, others, too). The problem I see with that is that I see no explanation for that kind of thinking clearly stated anywhere in the Bible. In fact, verses like the following are emphatic statements of what god will supposedly do and there are no qualifiers (other than belief) or timeframe limitations:

 

¹² Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. ¹³ And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. ¹⁴ You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

 

John 14:12-14

 

Many people on this forum read verses like the one I quoted and believed it and expected their Jesus to fulfill his promise. When they cried out in their desperation and heard nothing, they had to come to terms with the fact that what Jesus is supposed to have said is simply untrue.

[Spectrox]

End wrote: Well then there are a hell of a crowd that don't believe Christianity....that are predisposed to believe the "program".

 

I agree. Programming takes many forms. Even "domestication" could be considered a program - albeit a useful one. But why should anyone believe an old book that has almost no supporting evidence?

 

 

End wrote: Uh, because he's God and your not?

 

Pathetic non-answer. Demonstrate his existence first then your statement might have some validity.

[Overcame Faith]

Erased: double post.

[Ouroboros]

Those verses were part of my foundation for my faith. I believed strongly that God (Father) would always be there to ensure that things wouldn't be completely fucked up in life. I accepted that he would give me challenges, but never that he would completely allowed my life and my family's life to be completely cluster-fucked for years... (and it hasn't stopped, and won't stop).

 

If you would have asked me a few years ago, I would have opted for an interpretation that God was responsible.

Which would make God a prick. I had those thoughts too a while back, before I lost my faith, but I felt I couldn't believe in an evil God or worship such a creature.

[Ouroboros]

My line of thinking.....and I know Han's story as well as some others, was that many here are now advocates for self-responsibility. With that in mind, I think this passage expresses this notion specifically with regard to the difference between a fundamental law approach and the transition to an inborn, grace-filled love. You see what I mean? In summary, I don't see the transition as a catalyst for disbelief, but for added faith.

Until your son's life is on the line, and then again, and again, and again, and ... Your "inborn, grace-filled love" disappears after a while.

 

I have my bad days Margee, and I realize that, but those that I truely trust, I rarely intentionally hurt. So it wasn't meant to hurt, just trying to ask why is this not more of an enlighted understanding within Christianity rather than what is preached.

I totally understand, and I wasn't hurt. It was my choice to respond to your post. As long as something happens because of what choices I made, I can blame myself. The problem with what happened to my family was that I mostly had no control, at all. None. And no recourse. No answer. No solution.

[midniterider]

Mat 7:7 "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.

Mat 7:8 For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.

Mat 7:9 "Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone?

Mat 7:10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake?

Mat 7:11 If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!

Mat 7:12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

 

Re-reading this the other day and it seems that "finding the door open" seems more a function of what we do rather than what we expect God to do.

The reason I bring this here is I have heard so many say God is absent in their lives despite their requests.....which I don't discount, but seems like these verses really don't describe that line of thinking.

 

 

Thoughts?

 

Bible is fiction.

[Ouroboros]

For example, for a long time, we expect God to do for us until we become more mature and become God to do for others. I believe this mirrors the Old and New Testaments.....and by doing so, is affiming.

So praying to God Father for a miracle is the same as asking your neighbor to heal your son's spinal cord?

[TrailBlazer]

Here is another philosophy:

 

Any feasible thing you put your tiny human mind to is possible. So ask/seek/knock and believe it possible and it will be true. Some ppl need "God" to focus their minds for this meditation, while others opt for something a little more self-empowering in order to accomplish their goals

 

For those who don't understand the phenomenon of how mere thoughts can change actions and potentially our lives, this verse is an ingenious way to present it incognito.

[Guest end3]

Those verses were part of my foundation for my faith. I believed strongly that God (Father) would always be there to ensure that things wouldn't be completely fucked up in life. I accepted that he would give me challenges, but never that he would completely allowed my life and my family's life to be completely cluster-fucked for years... (and it hasn't stopped, and won't stop).

 

If you would have asked me a few years ago, I would have opted for an interpretation that God was responsible.

Which would make God a prick. I had those thoughts too a while back, before I lost my faith, but I felt I couldn't believe in an evil God or worship such a creature.

 

Playing devils advocate here....nothing personal. If we are to mature into "doing" rather than "receiving".......and fairly certain that's what the Bible says, then you hold contempt for God in your inability to faithfully manifest God?

[Ouroboros]

Those verses were part of my foundation for my faith. I believed strongly that God (Father) would always be there to ensure that things wouldn't be completely fucked up in life. I accepted that he would give me challenges, but never that he would completely allowed my life and my family's life to be completely cluster-fucked for years... (and it hasn't stopped, and won't stop).

 

If you would have asked me a few years ago, I would have opted for an interpretation that God was responsible.

Which would make God a prick. I had those thoughts too a while back, before I lost my faith, but I felt I couldn't believe in an evil God or worship such a creature.

 

Playing devils advocate here....nothing personal. If we are to mature into "doing" rather than "receiving".......and fairly certain that's what the Bible says, then you hold contempt for God in your inability to faithfully manifest God?

What you're suggesting is that human, acting together as group, is equal to God. Is that correct?

 

If asking supernatural God doesn't give anything, but asking neighbor does (and is the same as asking God), then human affairs are God making. Sure.

 

Then we have the same God, i.e. Society.

[Guest end3]

Until your son's life is on the line, and then again, and again, and again, and ... Your "inborn, grace-filled love" disappears after a while.

I believe that is very possible....

[Guest end3]

For example, for a long time, we expect God to do for us until we become more mature and become God to do for others. I believe this mirrors the Old and New Testaments.....and by doing so, is affiming.

So praying to God Father for a miracle is the same as asking your neighbor to heal your son's spinal cord?

 

Yes, somewhat.

[Guest end3]

Those verses were part of my foundation for my faith. I believed strongly that God (Father) would always be there to ensure that things wouldn't be completely fucked up in life. I accepted that he would give me challenges, but never that he would completely allowed my life and my family's life to be completely cluster-fucked for years... (and it hasn't stopped, and won't stop).

 

If you would have asked me a few years ago, I would have opted for an interpretation that God was responsible.

Which would make God a prick. I had those thoughts too a while back, before I lost my faith, but I felt I couldn't believe in an evil God or worship such a creature.

 

Playing devils advocate here....nothing personal. If we are to mature into "doing" rather than "receiving".......and fairly certain that's what the Bible says, then you hold contempt for God in your inability to faithfully manifest God?

What you're suggesting is that human, acting together as group, is equal to God. Is that correct?

 

If asking supernatural God doesn't give anything, but asking neighbor does (and is the same as asking God), then human affairs are God making. Sure.

 

Then we have the same God, i.e. Society.

 

Yes, but ultimately the question is the source of it all....

[Guest end3]

Here is another philosophy:

 

Any feasible thing you put your tiny human mind to is possible. So ask/seek/knock and believe it possible and it will be true. Some ppl need "God" to focus their minds for this meditation, while others opt for something a little more self-empowering in order to accomplish their goals

 

For those who don't understand the phenomenon of how mere thoughts can change actions and potentially our lives, this verse is an ingenious way to present it incognito.

 

Sure, I see it as a mechanism....

[Guest end3]

End wrote: Uh, because he's God and your not?

 

Pathetic non-answer. Demonstrate his existence first then your statement might have some validity.

 

We are talking about some rational definition of God, right? By default, within that rationality, unless you have some unique definition you would like to give, yes, you know less than God.

[Ouroboros]

Yes, but ultimately the question is the source of it all....

To me, it's the Universe and all that exists, not a creature-being with an infinite brain in a separate dimension beyond this one. We know how babies are made, how DNA works, and the whole process from A to B. We can see it. It's there. Recorded. The Universe does it, daily, constantly, "innate" in reality, and that's more powerful than us. Not a separate mind-person who is disconnected with this reality--a mind-person you can talk to through a magical super-prayer-phone, and who can somehow use his superpowers to change things (but only when he wants to), according to a Bible verse that he will always give you what you ask (but he won't, because "he" isn't real, only "it" is real).

 

"Ask God and you will receive" = "Ask people and they will help, and God is in the background smiling a creepy smile without interfering" ???

 

Well, here's the thing. I've asked "God--the humanity" for healing for my son many times over. So where is that magical super-doctor who can do it all? Where is that surgeon who can replace spinal cord, kidney, and intestines? (And not cause MRSA or any other untreatable disease.)

[Guest end3]

Yes, but ultimately the question is the source of it all....

To me, it's the Universe and all that exists, not a creature-being with an infinite brain in a separate dimension beyond this one. We know how babies are made, how DNA works, and the whole process from A to B. We can see it. It's there. Recorded. The Universe does it, daily, constantly, "innate" in reality, and that's more powerful than us. Not a separate mind-person who is disconnected with this reality--a mind-person you can talk to through a magical super-prayer-phone, and who can somehow use his superpowers to change things (but only when he wants to), according to a Bible verse that he will always give you what you ask (but he won't, because "he" isn't real, only "it" is real).

 

"Ask God and you will receive" = "Ask people and they will help, and God is in the background smiling a creepy smile without interfering" ???

 

Yeah, I just think there's something out there Hans.....that's just me....but thankfully am seeing a more hands-on approach as well.

[Ouroboros]

Yeah, I just think there's something out there Hans.....that's just me....but thankfully am seeing a more hands-on approach as well.

Well, "thinking" in your case is the same as unsubstantiated belief, it's hoping, just like your salvation. You're hoping there's a magical super-being on the other side of our universe's all dimensions. I don't. I haven't seen any evidence for such a character. I've seen evidence for human activity and this reality's truth, but not the truth of a spiritual world that somehow is connected to ours. I know how much it helps people to feel, think, and believe those things, but I'm beyond making myself a believer beyond what I know. I know what I know. And I know what is here. But I don't "know" in any sense or form of those things that I don't know, or can't know. So believe what you want if it helps you. But never assume it's a simple task of flipping a switch some belief in imaginary things, and especially not just because it's satisfying to some other people.

[scriptor]

Mat 7:7 "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.

Mat 7:8 For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.

Mat 7:9 "Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone?

Mat 7:10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake?

Mat 7:11 If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!

Mat 7:12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

 

Re-reading this the other day and it seems that "finding the door open" seems more a function of what we do rather than what we expect God to do.

The reason I bring this here is I have heard so many say God is absent in their lives despite their requests.....which I don't discount, but seems like these verses really don't describe that line of thinking.

 

 

Thoughts?

 

Tried that. Didn't work.

 

That is all.

[Guest Valk0010]

End wrote: Uh, because he's God and your not?

 

Pathetic non-answer. Demonstrate his existence first then your statement might have some validity.

 

We are talking about some rational definition of God, right? By default, within that rationality, unless you have some unique definition you would like to give, yes, you know less than God.

And I know less then Norman Finklestein on the the Israeli Palestine conflict, that means then he is correct how? Same goes with god, if the analogy isn't clear. Expertise and authority does not imply correctness.

[openpalm45]

Mat 7:7 "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.

Mat 7:8 For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.

Mat 7:9 "Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone?

Mat 7:10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake?

Mat 7:11 If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!

Mat 7:12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

 

Re-reading this the other day and it seems that "finding the door open" seems more a function of what we do rather than what we expect God to do.

The reason I bring this here is I have heard so many say God is absent in their lives despite their requests.....which I don't discount, but seems like these verses really don't describe that line of thinking.

 

 

Thoughts?

 

Oh, how I tried that. And not even so much for "things" or for circumstances. Sometimes, yes. But more than anything, I just wanted to experience god and feel close to him. I desperately cried out for his presence, for his love. Scripture also says "You will seek me and you will find me when you seek me with your whole heart." I did that. For 3 years. I got nothing back. I remember sobbing my eyes out, feeling rejected by god, again and again. I had friends pray for me, I went to church/ministry leadership. No one had answer for me.

At one point I came across this scripture:

 

 

The Faith of a Canaanite Woman

²¹ Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon.

²² A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, “Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is demon-possessed and suffering terribly.”

²³ Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, “Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.”

²⁴ He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”

²⁵ The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said.

²⁶ He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”

²⁷ “Yes it is, Lord,” she said. “Even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.”

²⁸ Then Jesus said to her, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed at that moment.

I began weeping uncontrollably after I read this, and I prayed "Lord, please! I would be so grateful for just the crumbs that fall from your table! Anything! Please!" Even now, remembering that moment brings me to tears all over again. I never got a response. I never got anything back from him. He rejected me, and I still kept trying. Kept asking, seeking, and knocking. Until I was too brokenhearted to do it anymore.

I finally realized that god wasn't rejecting me. He didnt exist in the first place.

(Not to mention, him saying shit like “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.” and “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.” to a hurting woman who was crying out for his help, makes him an asshole anyways!)

[bdp]

you know less than God.

 

anyone knows more than a non-entity.

[par4dcourse]

Who are you trying to convince, End? I suspect these sporadic posting jags of yours are in reaction to self doubt.

[Spectrox]

End wrote: Uh, because he's God and your not?

 

Pathetic non-answer. Demonstrate his existence first then your statement might have some validity.

 

We are talking about some rational definition of God, right? By default, within that rationality, unless you have some unique definition you would like to give, yes, you know less than God.

Don't include me in any of your definitions of God. That's not my problem. The onus of proof is on the person making the positive claim (the theist) that something exists, certain events took place and I should take them seriously. You can't just define something into existence. It has to be a verifiable, demonstrable, measurable manifestation or it doesn't work.