Guest end3 Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 End wrote: Uh, because he's God and your not? Pathetic non-answer. Demonstrate his existence first then your statement might have some validity. We are talking about some rational definition of God, right? By default, within that rationality, unless you have some unique definition you would like to give, yes, you know less than God. Don't include me in any of your definitions of God. That's not my problem. The onus of proof is on the person making the positive claim (the theist) that something exists, certain events took place and I should take them seriously. You can't just define something into existence. It has to be a verifiable, demonstrable, measurable manifestation or it doesn't work. What part of Christianity did you miss when it says "by faith". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spectrox Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 End wrote: Uh, because he's God and your not? Pathetic non-answer. Demonstrate his existence first then your statement might have some validity. We are talking about some rational definition of God, right? By default, within that rationality, unless you have some unique definition you would like to give, yes, you know less than God. Don't include me in any of your definitions of God. That's not my problem. The onus of proof is on the person making the positive claim (the theist) that something exists, certain events took place and I should take them seriously. You can't just define something into existence. It has to be a verifiable, demonstrable, measurable manifestation or it doesn't work. What part of Christianity did you miss when it says "by faith". Clearly I didn't miss anything about the praising of the virtues of "faith" in the Bible. But why is faith a good thing? Faith is gullibility of the most vacuous kind. Sometimes I think Christians are so vacuous that I expect their brains to collapse in on themselves and form an event horizon. Faith is belief in the absence of evidence or, in the case of Xianity, belief in spite of evidence to the contrary. The conclusion to the doubting Thomas story was "blessed are those who have not seen yet still believe." This is a pre-emptive strike against critical thinking. Why should I believe in a superstitious collection of old Jewish folk tales for which there is no good evidence? How is it that everyday I differentiate fact from fantasy using reasoned argument, evidence and the scientific method and yet supposedly for the ultimate truth, the most important truth, we are supposed to abandon all that. What kind of God needs that kind of faith-belief? How do we distinguish "true God claims" from "false God claims"? For all you know, the one true God is a lover of intelligence, skepticism and rationality and rational skeptics are saved in the hereafter and advance to the next level and Xians go for cosmic therapy? Evidentially and morally the Bible is madder than a box of frogs and uglier than a pit bull channelling the ghost of Myra Hindley. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 Clearly I didn't miss anything about the praising of the virtues of "faith" in the Bible. But why is faith a good thing? Faith is gullibility of the most vacuous kind. Sometimes I think Christians are so vacuous that I expect their brains to collapse in on themselves and form an event horizon. The problem with this response Spec is that you assume you know "more than" this theology. Faith is often a good thing when we DON"T know but are seeking, asking, knocking. Faith is belief in the absence of evidence or, in the case of Xianity, belief in spite of evidence to the contrary. Again, I gather by your arrogance that you don't consider much in your spare time. The conclusion to the doubting Thomas story was "blessed are those who have not seen yet still believe." This is a pre-emptive strike against critical thinking. It is not. it's a statement of faith. Why should I believe in a superstitious collection of old Jewish folk tales for which there is no good evidence? Because if it's true you have eternal life??? How is it that everyday I differentiate fact from fantasy using reasoned argument, evidence and the scientific method and yet supposedly for the ultimate truth, the most important truth, we are supposed to abandon all that. What kind of God needs that kind of faith-belief? How do we distinguish "true God claims" from "false God claims"? For all you know, the one true God is a lover of intelligence, skepticism and rationality and rational skeptics are saved in the hereafter and advance to the next level and Xians go for cosmic therapy? Does the Bible, sir, not give you a story to follow? So now you are going to make up your own context to prove to yourself God or no God? Again, and no one seems to answer this. If Christ has already been crucified and states that he will return to see who remains faithful, then why would there be dispensation of the Holy Spirit as a helper for US to remain followers of Christ. You act like you didn't read the book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcdaddy Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 End wrote: Uh, because he's God and your not? Pathetic non-answer. Demonstrate his existence first then your statement might have some validity. We are talking about some rational definition of God, right? By default, within that rationality, unless you have some unique definition you would like to give, yes, you know less than God. Don't include me in any of your definitions of God. That's not my problem. The onus of proof is on the person making the positive claim (the theist) that something exists, certain events took place and I should take them seriously. You can't just define something into existence. It has to be a verifiable, demonstrable, measurable manifestation or it doesn't work. What part of Christianity did you miss when it says "by faith". Clearly I didn't miss anything about the praising of the virtues of "faith" in the Bible. But why is faith a good thing? Faith is gullibility of the most vacuous kind. Sometimes I think Christians are so vacuous that I expect their brains to collapse in on themselves and form an event horizon. Faith is belief in the absence of evidence or, in the case of Xianity, belief in spite of evidence to the contrary. The conclusion to the doubting Thomas story was "blessed are those who have not seen yet still believe." This is a pre-emptive strike against critical thinking. Why should I believe in a superstitious collection of old Jewish folk tales for which there is no good evidence? How is it that everyday I differentiate fact from fantasy using reasoned argument, evidence and the scientific method and yet supposedly for the ultimate truth, the most important truth, we are supposed to abandon all that. What kind of God needs that kind of faith-belief? How do we distinguish "true God claims" from "false God claims"? For all you know, the one true God is a lover of intelligence, skepticism and rationality and rational skeptics are saved in the hereafter and advance to the next level and Xians go for cosmic therapy? Evidentially and morally the Bible is madder than a box of frogs and uglier than a pit bull channelling the ghost of Myra Hindley. This this this this this x1000000000000000000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcdaddy Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 Clearly I didn't miss anything about the praising of the virtues of "faith" in the Bible. But why is faith a good thing? Faith is gullibility of the most vacuous kind. Sometimes I think Christians are so vacuous that I expect their brains to collapse in on themselves and form an event horizon. The problem with this response Spec is that you assume you know "more than" this theology. Faith is often a good thing when we DON"T know but are seeking, asking, knocking. So of you're checking to see if IPU's are real, it's good to believe they exist anyway even though you have no proof? Faith is belief in the absence of evidence or, in the case of Xianity, belief in spite of evidence to the contrary. Again, I gather by your arrogance that you don't consider much in your spare time. The conclusion to the doubting Thomas story was "blessed are those who have not seen yet still believe." This is a pre-emptive strike against critical thinking. AIt is not. it's a statement of faith. A statement of faith is....a statement about having faith in something, not a statement that certain people are more spiritually "kick ass" than others because they buy into a story with no logical reason to do so. Why should I believe in a superstitious collection of old Jewish folk tales for which there is no good evidence? Because if it's true you have eternal life??? So if I tell you the flying spaghetti monster bestows eternal life on those who believe, you should believe also according to your logic. How is it that everyday I differentiate fact from fantasy using reasoned argument, evidence and the scientific method and yet supposedly for the ultimate truth, the most important truth, we are supposed to abandon all that. What kind of God needs that kind of faith-belief? How do we distinguish "true God claims" from "false God claims"? For all you know, the one true God is a lover of intelligence, skepticism and rationality and rational skeptics are saved in the hereafter and advance to the next level and Xians go for cosmic therapy? Does the Bible, sir, not give you a story to follow? So now you are going to make up your own context to prove to yourself God or no God? Again, and no one seems to answer this. If Christ has already been crucified and states that he will return to see who remains faithful, then why would there be dispensation of the Holy Spirit as a helper for US to remain followers of Christ. You act like you didn't read the book. It's all make believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spectrox Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 End wrote: The problem with this response Spec is that you assume you know "more than" this theology. Faith is often a good thing when we DON"T know but are seeking, asking, knocking. I have reasonable expectations based on evidence. I grant trust to individuals tentatively and give them the benefit of the doubt. But faith (belief sans evidence) is not a pathway to truth. It's the Highway to Insanity. www.emotionalcompetency.com has this to say: “Trust implies depth and assurance of feeling often based on inconclusive evidence. Confidence frequently implies stronger grounds for assurance. Rely implies complete confidence. Dependence suggests reliance on another having the greater power. Gullibility refers to a blind trust—an unfounded or misplaced trust. Betrayal and cheating describe a broken trust. Suspicion is a lack of trust. Manipulation describes behavior that takes place before establishing trust. Reputation is the history of trust behaviors accessible from past transactions. We use reputation information to help set expectations for future transactions; it eases exchange of valuables and reduces risk.” End wrote: Again, I gather by your arrogance that you don't consider much in your spare time. I gave Christianity a good chance to prove itself when I began to have doubts. I wasted months of my life praying to what turned out to be the imaginary sky daddy in my headspace. I'll never get that time back. And do you want to know what's arrogant? Posting presumptuous pro-Christian drivel on the Lion's Den of an ex-christian site. End wrote: It is not. it's a statement of faith. Which doesn't necessarily make it good or true. End wrote: Because if it's true you have eternal life??? And if its' wrong you've wasted the one and only life you are going to get on a far-fetched, self-contradictory delusion. End wrote: Does the Bible, sir, not give you a story to follow? So now you are going to make up your own context to prove to yourself God or no God? Again, and no one seems to answer this. If Christ has already been crucified and states that he will return to see who remains faithful, then why would there be dispensation of the Holy Spirit as a helper for US to remain followers of Christ. You act like you didn't read the book. What are you going on about? I don't really believe in the pro-skeptic God I described. It was by way of illustration - obviously. I'm staggered that I had to point that out. And how do you know Christ existed at all let alone was crucified, died for a weekend, then rose from the dead and this somehow puts things right with the creator of the universe? And don't call me Spec. Only my best friends call me that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 Clearly I didn't miss anything about the praising of the virtues of "faith" in the Bible. But why is faith a good thing? Faith is gullibility of the most vacuous kind. Sometimes I think Christians are so vacuous that I expect their brains to collapse in on themselves and form an event horizon. The problem with this response Spec is that you assume you know "more than" this theology. Faith is often a good thing when we DON"T know but are seeking, asking, knocking. Faith is belief in the absence of evidence or, in the case of Xianity, belief in spite of evidence to the contrary. Again, I gather by your arrogance that you don't consider much in your spare time. The conclusion to the doubting Thomas story was "blessed are those who have not seen yet still believe." This is a pre-emptive strike against critical thinking. It is not. it's a statement of faith. Why should I believe in a superstitious collection of old Jewish folk tales for which there is no good evidence? Because if it's true you have eternal life??? How is it that everyday I differentiate fact from fantasy using reasoned argument, evidence and the scientific method and yet supposedly for the ultimate truth, the most important truth, we are supposed to abandon all that. What kind of God needs that kind of faith-belief? How do we distinguish "true God claims" from "false God claims"? For all you know, the one true God is a lover of intelligence, skepticism and rationality and rational skeptics are saved in the hereafter and advance to the next level and Xians go for cosmic therapy? Does the Bible, sir, not give you a story to follow? So now you are going to make up your own context to prove to yourself God or no God? Again, and no one seems to answer this. If Christ has already been crucified and states that he will return to see who remains faithful, then why would there be dispensation of the Holy Spirit as a helper for US to remain followers of Christ. You act like you didn't read the book. So... just who is the arrogant one here? The one who asserts that the entire universe was created specifically and only for the benefit of humans? The one who asserts that the entire universe was created only so that humans could make just one decision? The one who asserts that the entire universe will be trashed when the allotted decision-making time is up? The one who asserts that another, better, new universe will be created only for those making the right decision? The one who places humans squarely in the center of the entire universe? The one who reckons that humans are the pinnacle of all creation? The one who thinks of humans as the one and only reason the entire universe exists at all? The one who believes that everything and anything revolves solely around the human race? The one who maintains that nothing else has the right to exist in of itself, but everything owes it's existence only to us? So who's the arrogant one here, End? BAA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 I guess the point was Spectrox that we move from a more or less blind trust to a stronger trust based on our experience.......as per the passage....so much so, that we do the things and become part of that reality. To me the fact that we all follow the same pattern, from fundamentalism to an understanding freedom, is evidence for the book, IMO. For you, obviously, your experience doesn't move you towards those actions as evidenced by your attitude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spectrox Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 I guess the point was Spectrox that we move from a more or less blind trust to a stronger trust based on our experience.......as per the passage....so much so, that we do the things and become part of that reality. To me the fact that we all follow the same pattern, from fundamentalism to an understanding freedom, is evidence for the book, IMO. For you, obviously, your experience doesn't move you towards those actions as evidenced by your attitude. If this is the process that all christians and ex-christians go through (which I seriously doubt) then this isn't evidence that Biblical claims are true and accurate. The difference between us is that I have thoroughly digested the Bible, taken what's good from it, pooped out what's unhealthy or rotten whereas you appear to still think it's inspired by some powerful supernatural entity. It is possible to gain some enlightenment from the Bible or indeed any religion but Christianity is a philosophical cul-de-sac. It's mostly primitive, testosterone-driven sexual frustration. If I'd been God I would have script-edited it more rigorously. It goes on and on about the plight of a band of desert-dwelling thugs in the OT and all that endless repetition in the NT. Yes, if I'd been God I'd have written a much tighter script. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bdp Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 Why should I believe in a superstitious collection of old Jewish folk tales for which there is no good evidence? Because if it's true you have eternal life??? Why would I want that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bdp Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 If Christ has already been crucified and states that he will return to see who remains faithful, then why would there be dispensation of the Holy Spirit as a helper for US to remain followers of Christ. Since there wasn't one the question is pointless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 Why would I want that? Second that question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thought2Much Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 Why would I want that? Second that question. Thirded. If heaven is anything like what Pentecostals envision, it sounds like it would be boring to endure for one hour, let alone for eternity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 To the question at hand....I feel as though I have had one peak/large God experience.....take that however you wish..... It was so good I thought to myself days afterward that it matched nothing. Also thought to myself that I could be in that forever it was that good. Chalk it up to whatever you wish. And I was like everyone else, if it's like church, no thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 To the question at hand....I feel as though I have had one peak/large God experience.....take that however you wish..... It was so good I thought to myself days afterward that it matched nothing. Also thought to myself that I could be in that forever it was that good. Chalk it up to whatever you wish. And I was like everyone else, if it's like church, no thanks. I've had a couple of those experiences, both as a Christian and... as an atheist. I experienced it, quite strongly actually, about 6 months after I lost my faith in Christianity. It was just as strong, and lasted for a very long time afterwards. I felt a complete unity with the Universe and Existence (uppercase intentional to highlight them as proper nouns, i.e. tokens that replace the concept of God as an independent being). We are all part of It. Not separate. It (God) is part of us and we're part of It. That's what I know from my experience. Silly books with myths and legends from 2,000 years ago won't change my experience. If you want to show that your God is independent from this world and Universe, then you have to show that. My "God" is All that is Here, right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 Why would I want that? Second that question. I was never born nor shall I ever die. That in whom reside all beings and who resides in all beings, who is the giver of grace to all, the Supreme Soul of the universe, the limitless being -- I am that. Amritbindu Upanishad I am prior to god and prior to jesus. :-) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 To the question at hand....I feel as though I have had one peak/large God experience.....take that however you wish..... It was so good I thought to myself days afterward that it matched nothing. Also thought to myself that I could be in that forever it was that good. Chalk it up to whatever you wish. And I was like everyone else, if it's like church, no thanks. You surely dont need to be a Christian or love Jesus to have a peak experience. Smoke some dope, buddy. Practice astral projection. Go jogging. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SusanStoHeli Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 Mat 7:7 "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. Mat 7:8 For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened. Mat 7:9 "Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Mat 7:10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? Mat 7:11 If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! Mat 7:12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets. Re-reading this the other day and it seems that "finding the door open" seems more a function of what we do rather than what we expect God to do. The reason I bring this here is I have heard so many say God is absent in their lives despite their requests.....which I don't discount, but seems like these verses really don't describe that line of thinking. Thoughts? Seems to me that you're trying to explain away a very simple verse. He's claiming that if you follow his god, he'll give you all kinds of good things, whatever you ask for. Ask and it will be given to you - pretty clear here. He's repeating over and over how of course God will give you whatever you like. There's not much to interpret away here. But, of course, we know that isn't true - we see believers lose loved ones just like anyone else, no matter how devout they are. So then you have to explain away something that is VERY clearly written to try to claim that it's not going to mean what it explicitly says - no, it isn't that you get what you ask for, it must be a metaphor...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 Mat 7:7 "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. Mat 7:8 For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened. Mat 7:9 "Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Mat 7:10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? Mat 7:11 If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! Mat 7:12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets. Re-reading this the other day and it seems that "finding the door open" seems more a function of what we do rather than what we expect God to do. The reason I bring this here is I have heard so many say God is absent in their lives despite their requests.....which I don't discount, but seems like these verses really don't describe that line of thinking. Thoughts? Seems to me that you're trying to explain away a very simple verse. He's claiming that if you follow his god, he'll give you all kinds of good things, whatever you ask for. Ask and it will be given to you - pretty clear here. He's repeating over and over how of course God will give you whatever you like. There's not much to interpret away here. But, of course, we know that isn't true - we see believers lose loved ones just like anyone else, no matter how devout they are. So then you have to explain away something that is VERY clearly written to try to claim that it's not going to mean what it explicitly says - no, it isn't that you get what you ask for, it must be a metaphor...... You see, if it works and you actually get something you asked for, then JEEBUS DID IT!!!!!!!!!! Hallelujia, hands in the air, sway back and forth! If on the other hand you dont get what you asked for you must read this other large volume (that oddly enough is NOT the inerrant spirit inspired bible - omg!) which tells you in 500,000,000 words the actual real, true, yet cryptic meaning of these scriptures. And the large volume will tell that truly even though you ask, seek and knock, you aint getting shit. :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 In Revelation: "3:20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me." So we knock on his door. He's knocking on our door. Apparently we're at each other's houses. No one is home. No one will ever answer. Nothing is going to happen. Someone should have called ahead. The reality, of course, is the gospels (Matthew and Luke?) blame xians for not ever really making the effort and Revelation blames xians for not ever really responding to the call. I guess "god" waited at home then came to your house when you didn't show up. Either way it's your fault. mwc 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scriptor Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 In Revelation: "3:20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me." So we knock on his door. He's knocking on our door. Apparently we're at each other's houses. No one is home. No one will ever answer. Nothing is going to happen. Someone should have called ahead. The reality, of course, is the gospels (Matthew and Luke?) blame xians for not ever really making the effort and Revelation blames xians for not ever really responding to the call. I guess "god" waited at home then came to your house when you didn't show up. Either way it's your fault. mwc Love it. "Someone should have called ahead". I actually laughed out loud. Brilliant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spectrox Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 To the question at hand....I feel as though I have had one peak/large God experience.....take that however you wish..... It was so good I thought to myself days afterward that it matched nothing. Also thought to myself that I could be in that forever it was that good. Chalk it up to whatever you wish. And I was like everyone else, if it's like church, no thanks. At what point did this huge experience take place. Did you read the entire Bible from beginning to end and just as you read the last bit of Revelation a hollow voice rang inside your head saying "Come unto me all ye who are laboured and are heavy-laden and I shall give you rest."? Did a talking dove materialise in front of you quoting other random Bible verses? How do you know the Bible had anything to do with your experience or was the cause of it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 In Revelation: "3:20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me." So we knock on his door. He's knocking on our door. Apparently we're at each other's houses. No one is home. No one will ever answer. Nothing is going to happen. Someone should have called ahead. The reality, of course, is the gospels (Matthew and Luke?) blame xians for not ever really making the effort and Revelation blames xians for not ever really responding to the call. I guess "god" waited at home then came to your house when you didn't show up. Either way it's your fault. mwc God needs to start using post-it notes. He could have just put one on my door before I came back home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
par4dcourse Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 To the question at hand....I feel as though I have had one peak/large God experience.....take that however you wish..... It was so good I thought to myself days afterward that it matched nothing. Also thought to myself that I could be in that forever it was that good. Chalk it up to whatever you wish. And I was like everyone else, if it's like church, no thanks. You've devoted yourself to an endorphin rush. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 To the question at hand....I feel as though I have had one peak/large God experience.....take that however you wish..... It was so good I thought to myself days afterward that it matched nothing. Also thought to myself that I could be in that forever it was that good. Chalk it up to whatever you wish. And I was like everyone else, if it's like church, no thanks. You've devoted yourself to an endorphin rush. Do they sell that? Another thing that occurs to me. Why do we figure that if we understand a process, that somehow this negates God? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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